Notices of motions for first reading of bills.

Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Mr. Whitford.

Your motion is in order. All in favour of the motion? Opposed, if any? The motion is carried.

---CarriedBill 17 has had first reading. First reading of bills. Mr. Whitford.

Your motion is in order. All in favour? Opposed, if any? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 18 has had first reading. First reading of bills.

Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Tabled Document 9-12(2), Strength at Two Levels; Tabled Document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government; Tabled Document 12-12(2), Plebiscite Direction; Bill 14, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1992-93; Committee Report 3-12(2), SCOF Review of 1992-93 Capital Estimates, with Mr. Nerysoo in the chair.

Bill 14, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1992-93 And Committee Report 3-12(2)

The committee will come to order. Committee Members will recall that we were dealing with Bill 14, Committee Report 3-12(2), and we were on general comments with regard to the Housing Corporation, page 3-8. The Minister is not in the House at this time. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, we are dispatching somebody to get Mr. Morin, so he should be here forthwith.

Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the indulgence of the committee for a short break and if Mr. Morin is not in the House then we can defer this budget and put it to the bottom of the list. Thank you.

What is the wish of the House? Do you wish to continue with the Housing Corporation?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Northwest Territories Housing Corporation

Could I ask if the Minister wishes to have witnesses in the committee?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes I would like to invite my witnesses in the House.

The witnesses will be invited and appropriately seated after a 10 minute break.

---SHORT RECESS

I call the committee back to order. If I could ask the Minister to introduce the witnesses, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my left is Mr. Larry Elkin, the president of the Housing Corporation. To my right is Mr. Jim Pratt. He is the vice-president of finance for the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Criteria For Eligibility For HAP Units

Mr. Chairman, one of the issues that keeps coming up time and time again in my work as a Member, is with regard to the eligibility of HAP clients to get units, and I am sure the Minister is aware of it. We have a situation in communities where there are not any banks, and for most of the collateral required for a home mortgage, you have to have land or something to that effect. Most of the people in the communities do not own land. It is all leased. The other problem is that most of the banks are reluctant to provide loans to people that do not reside in that area, in the community. We do have people that do have a high salary bracket that do not fit into the program. Of course, the other side is that we also have people who are capable of maintaining their own homes, that do not meet the qualifications because of a lower income.

I keep getting letters from members of my constituency to intervene on their behalf to be selected as a HAP client. Even though I do, I know it is a waste of time, because I know what the rules are, and I tell them, "The rules are this; you have to be below this income in order to qualify, and you make too much money. I do not think the rules have changed, but I will try anyways." Even though I do, I do not succeed. So I would like to ask the new Minister if he has given any thought with regard to maybe broadening the eligibility for home-owners.

The other thing is, we also have a situation where the policy does exist that people that own, under the SSHAG, small settlement home assistance grant, program, for example, do not qualify for HAP units. The program itself was an earlier version of the HAP program. But most of the families I know, when those units were first built, cannot expand because of the log structure. They could get home improvement grants, but you cannot cut a wall into a log building without really unstabilizing it, and that is the difficulty. But I would think that maybe those people should also be considered for units. Naturally, when the program started back in 1978, those families have grown in size. When they first were allotted, they were based on a design for three people, like two-bedroom units. Most of those families that I know of have now increased their families by about four to six children, but the condition is still the same as it was back in 1978. So there is that difficulty, and I would appreciate if the department would look at maybe changing or reviewing their eligibility criteria as well as their policy governing the eligibility, too.

Thank you. Mr. Minister

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The concerns the Member has brought up are Territories-wide concerns. We are getting those concerns from a lot of people in the Territories, that the HAP program has become too narrow. It does not meet the majority of the people's needs, so one of the first things we are going to undertake is to do a needs survey with the community, identify the community's preference and the types of homes they need, and that is going to also drive the development of new home-ownership and other housing programs. By the fall of this year we will have a new range of housing programs in place for next year's building season.

It does not seem fair to me that a person that makes $50,000 or $49,000 gets a $100,000 house, and a person that makes $51,000 does not get anything. That is not a fair way of distributing things, so we will be addressing new programs for those that are over the threshold as well as for those that are in more need under the threshold. There has got to be a broader range of programs, and we will be doing that. It will be in place for next year's building season, but it will not be in place for this year's building season. As it is right now, Mr. Gargan, lower income people, even though they are not eligible at the outset, can become eligible if they prove, for example, that they burn straight wood to bring the cost of operating the unit down. In the smaller communities like Jean Marie River or wherever, they can still get a unit if they prove that.

I realize that some of the older home-ownership programs, the first units that Indian Affairs put in, in the West, are in pretty bad shape now, as well as some of the SSHAG units. Communities went out and harvested small logs and slapped something together in the SSHAG program, as it was called, so those have to be adjusted as well. It may not make sense for the corporation to put a HIP, home improvement program, into those units because you do not gain a lot of ground and you spend a lot of money, so it may make sense just to replace the unit. That will be addressed as well, but as I have been telling people who have concerns about the program, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. That light will get wider the farther into the fall we go, and we will have new programs and they will be programs that meet the communities' needs because the communities, and the Members as well, are going to have some input into how those programs are developed. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Senior Citizens' Home-Ownership Assistance Program

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The other area I would like to address is with regard to senior citizens' HAP. Your predecessor, Mr. Butters, implemented what is called senior citizens' HAP. In Kakisa we had two people eligible for senior citizens' HAP. I think they have just about completed one building. I talked to the district office and they said the program no longer exists because of restraint. I thought it was a good program. Most seniors still live in their own homes. It was the first program of its time, and it only happened one summer, last summer. You might revisit that program. Of course we do have the special programs, and I wanted to convey to your department that I appreciate the assistance the department has given with regard to special projects. It has really helped some people who otherwise would not have an adequate shelter.

Thank you. Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The senior citizens' HAP is a normal HAP program, I believe, and there was extra labour money given in some cases -- usually that was tied in with training money -- to build those units. We are looking at doing that again.

The special projects dollars was over a million dollars last year, but the rules and criteria, how you apply, application forms, things like that, were not clear. So basically I would like to clear those up and make sure that everybody is treated equally and fairly, and it will be in place again.