Good afternoon. Orders of the day for Thursday, March 5, 1992. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Ningark.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to fulfill a commitment I made to this House. As Minister responsible for the Status of Women I said I would consult with women's groups to get first hand their comments and concerns on the situation involving PaulQuassa, his recent court case, and his position within the Tungavik Federation of Nunavut.

I can tell you that the women I spoke to were very concerned about the fact that Mr. Quassa received an absolute discharge from the court, concerned about the message this sends toothers who may commit offences of this type, about whether there are consequences for such actions.

Mr. Speaker, I share the concerns expressed by the leaders of NWT women's organizations and others about what sorts of messages we send to those who commit offences against women. But while I am concerned with what happens to offenders in the courts, I am also aware that the Northwest Territories has the highest rate of imprisonment in Canada, and that even with that rate, we still have a serious problem with offences involving violence. So I want to direct our efforts toward what we do about the attitudes which give rise to these offences, what we do to prevent the assaults, what we do to change people's behaviour.

--- Applause

Thank you. In the gallery today Members will join me in welcoming Rita Arey, president of the Northwest Territories Status of Women Council; and Lynn Brooks, executive director of the Northwest Territories Status of Women Council. We also have with us Mr. Jack Anawak, Member of Parliament for Nunatsiaq. We have with us, Lauren Taillefer and her class from the adult learning centre in Hay River.

--- Applause

Ministers' statements. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the 1992 Arctic Winter Games will be held March 16 to 22 in Whitehorse, Yukon. As Minister responsible, I am pleased to provide Members of the Assembly with an update on our NWT team to this premier trans-Arctic sport and cultural event.

Mr. Speaker, our NWT Team consists of 308 athletes, coaches and mission staff, who will compete in all 17 sports at the 1992 Arctic Winter Games. Athletes on our team come from 34 different communities from all regions across the Northwest Territories. I am pleased to note that community representation on our team has steadily increased. In 1980, only 20 communities sent athletes to the games. The competitive success of our athletes from the smaller communities in earning a spot on the NWT team is only one indication of this government's success in providing facilities, coaching and competitions to all residents of the Northwest Territories. Regional representation on our NWT team is as follows: Baffin, 18; Keewatin, 35; Kitikmeot, 12; Inuvik, 27; Yellowknife, 126; Fort Smith/Hay River, 48; and Mackenzie, 41.

Mr. Speaker, this week I have provided each MLA with a list of participants from their constituency. In fact, every Member of this Assembly, except two, has representation on the team. As well, our NWT team will be complemented by a cultural performance group of 11 who will form part of the major cultural program planned in conjunction with the games.

The success of the Arctic Winter Games, however, should not be judged solely on the composition of our final team that has earned the right to compete in Whitehorse. The Arctic Winter Games have earned the importance they hold throughout the North because they involve mass participation in a series of regional and territorial trials; for example, those held in December and January to determine the final team for these games. Over 2400 athletes, coaches and officials from 47 communities competed in the regional and territorial trials for the right to represent the NWT at the 1992 Arctic Winter Games. The Arctic Winter Games territorial trials are the single largest sporting event in the Northwest Territories.

I am sure all Members will join me in wishing all athletes the very best of luck in their upcoming competitions, and even if they do not bring home the gold ulu, I am sure they will represent us well.

--- Applause

Ministers' statements. Minister Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in 1977 the United Nations passed a resolution recognizing March 8 as the day for celebrating women's rights. All Northerners should be proud of the contribution women have made and are making in their communities. They are providing commitment and dedication, not only in this House, but in our schools, in the economy, in social development and in keeping our families strong.

The NWT's theme this year is "Celebrating Together." For the week of March 5 to 16 women in the Northwest Territories will be participating in a number of activities. I encourage all Members to join the celebration in their home communities and in Yellowknife. Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to extend my congratulations to northern women on this International Women's Day. Thank you.

--- Applause

Ministers' statements. Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to voice the concerns of the ordinary Members' caucus over the flippant attitude of cabinet members in responding to questions or concerns from MLAs on this side of the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, I would remind my honourable colleagues that each and every MLA in this Assembly was elected to represent his or her constituents to the best of his or her ability, not to merely follow a course charted by the Members of the cabinet. I would like to remind my honourable colleagues that when an ordinary Member asks a question, or raises concerns, he or she is doing so on behalf of the citizens of the Northwest Territories. In doing this, it deserves a prompt, complete and informative answer, not a hollow, flippant joke.

When a Member such as Mr. Lewis voiced concerns over a government slogan which he felt was inappropriate, as he did yesterday, his concern deserves consideration by the Minister or cabinet, not a trite comment such as Mr. Whitford's remark, and I quote: "You would find fault with the Lord's Prayer."

I could go on at length, Mr. Speaker. Members of cabinet have provided many more examples in the past few weeks. Instead, I would urge honourable colleagues to keep in mind that all MLAs represent the people of this land, and our concerns are not to be dismissed out of hand.

--- Applause

Members' statements. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, please tell me if I am not following the rules properly. I am not sure if this is appropriate under Members' statements. This is directed to the Minister of Justice. There is an RCMP native constable in Cape Dorset. This community is the first in Baffin to have a native RCMP. The native RCMP constable in Sanikiluaq will be retiring shortly. The people of Lake Harbour have been concerned about having a native RCMP constable in their community. Before the native RCMP constable retires, the people of Lake Harbour have requested another native RCMP constable to be placed in that community because there would be fewer interpreter services required in Lake Harbour, especially with regard to confidential client consultations. The people of Lake Harbour would like to get another native RCMP constable as soon as the present native constable retires. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Members' statements. Mr. Arvaluk.

Members join with Mr. Arvaluk in wishing Ms. Mike the best on her birthday. Members' statements.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, I am not representing only one community, and I have a question for the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. I have been asked many times by the communities whether there is an economic development officer for those communities. This is my question directed to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. Thank you.

Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice and get back to the Member. Thank you.

The question has been taken as notice. Oral questions. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is March 5, which is my birthday, Mr. Speaker, the sixth day after the deadline imposed by the Minister, who has been attempting to force community-based organizations to sign alcohol and drug contribution agreements to which they are opposed. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services: What is the status of contribution funding to the alcohol and drug projects in Pangnirtung and lqaluit?

Minister of Social Services, Mr. Whitford.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Ms. Mike.

Mr. Speaker, was it that they have not signed, or have they? The 29th came and went, yes; we all know that.

Mr. Whitford.

Oral questions. Oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services. Can the Minister of Social Services advise me as to how many youth justice committees we currently have in the Territories?

Minister of Social Services, Mr. Whitford.

The question has been taken as notice. Oral questions, Oral questions.

I wonder, then, if I can take this opportunity on behalf of the Assembly to say it is with great pleasure that I recognize today, seated in the Speaker's Gallery, Her Honour, the Deputy Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, Mrs. Helen Maksagak, accompanied by her husband, John.

--- Applause

Oral questions. Mr. Bernhardt.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to request unanimous consent to go back to Members' statements.

The honourable Member has requested unanimous consent to return to Item 3, Members' statements. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to add my words of praise to the Government Leader's for the new Deputy Commissioner of the Northwest Territories. Mr. Speaker, there are a great many reasons for selecting Helen Maksagak of Cambridge Bay as the Deputy Commissioner of the Northwest Territories. She has been very active in church groups. She ran a successful foster home with her husband, John, for many years. She is a member of the social assistance appeal committee, the housing association, the drug and alcohol board of directors, and many, many other support groups.

Helen Maksagak is also a very warm human being who treats each and every person with compassion and makes them all feel very special. But, the most important reason why I think Helen Maksagak is a wonderful choice forDdeputy Commissioner is that she is my aunt.

--- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Bernhardt. We will return to Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services a question. I realize he took my previous question under notice. I would like to ask the Minister it he knows the amount of money that has been given to youth justice committees. Can he give me the amounts granted to youth justice committees to complete the work required across the Territories? Thank you.

Minister of Social Services, Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Whitford, to be clear, are you taking the question as notice?

Oral questions. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Justice and concerns legal interpreters in the courts. Court legal interpreters who have gone through the training program, when they are interpreting in court -- the only protection they have is that they are considered to be one of the court's officers. Is there any legislation to protect the court interpreters?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, the short answer to that question is that there is no legislation that I know of to protect court interpreters from possible liability.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister's department considering drafting appropriate legislation for a court interpreters profession act?

Minister of Justice, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this issue has been brought to my attention recently as an issue which should be looked at. I can tell the honourable Member, at this point, that I have asked my department to examine the issue of the liability of court and perhaps other interpreters who work for our government. But as yet I have not received advice, nor have I formed an opinion about whether legislation or some other form of protection is advisable. But it is an issue that I have asked my department to examine. Thank you.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary to the Minister of Justice. Will you and your department consider drafting legislation for legal court interpreters?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, I certainly respect the honourable Member's experience in that field. If she is recommending that such legislation and such protection is advisable, then I will take that advice very seriously and yes, I will certainly consider such legislation once I have had an opportunity to examine the legal circumstances and advice on that issue. Thank you.

Members will join with me in welcoming Mr. James Eetoolook, the acting president of TFN.

--- Applause

Oral questions.

Item 6, written questions.

Item 7, returns to written questions.

Item 8, replies to Opening Address.

Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Our report from the standing committee on agencies, boards and commissions on the appointment of members to the Workers' Compensation Board.

Mr. Speaker, at its meeting on March 5, 1992, the standing committee on agencies, boards and commissions discussed the matter of an announcement made on March 3, regarding two new appointments to the Northwest Territories Workers' Compensation Board. The standing committee was also aware that further appointments to the board are under consideration within cabinet.

The standing committee expresses its extreme dissatisfaction that the Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board has not followed a previous recommendation to postpone filling membership vacancies in all government created boards and agencies until March 31, 1992.

This recommendation, which was passed by a motion of this House and apparently concurred in by the Executive Council, also indicated that "where it is clearly in the public interest to appoint or reappoint members of boards and agencies, that these appointments be made for the shortest possible term." It is the standing committee's view that the Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board has not established that it is clearly in the public interest to proceed with these board appointments. In fact, given that these positions on the board have been vacant for some time, it is very questionable whether it was necessary at all to make the appointments at the present time.

The standing committee on agencies, boards and commissions is outraged with respect to the inadequate consultation process followed in making these appointments. This government has repeatedly made commitments to consult widely with Members of this Assembly prior to making important board appointments. This clearly did not occur in this instance.

In an earlier report, the standing committee has indicated that a comprehensive review of the Workers' Compensation Board and its operations would be undertaken early in the new fiscal year. The government should be aware that the findings may result in recommendations that could significantly alter the structure and policy framework of the board. It is for this reason that the Minister must consult with the standing committee prior to any consideration of appointing members to the Workers' Compensation Board.

The process through which the March 3rd appointments were made to the Workers' Compensation Board was clearly contrary to the committee motion passed in this House when dealing with Committee Report 1-2(1). Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to move that this report be moved into committee of the whole and be placed as the first item on the order paper.

The motion is in order, Mr. Koe. Who is seconding the motion, Mr. Koe?

Mr. Speaker, I would like to rephrase that motion. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for North Slave, that the report of the special committee on agencies, boards and commissions on the appointment of members to the Workers' Compensation Board, be received and moved into committee of the whole as the first item of business for consideration for today. Mahsi.

The motion is in order, Mr. Koe. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Committee Report 5-12(2), report on the appointment of members to the Workers' Compensation Board will be put into committee of the whole as first item of business, Reports of standing and special committees.

Before I go on to the next item, I wish to inform the House that I have received the following message from the Deputy Commissioner of the Northwest Territories. "I wish to advise that I recommend to the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories the passage of Bill 22, Write-off of Assets and Debts Act, 1992, during the second session of the 12th Legislative Assembly. Signed by Helen Maksagak, Deputy Commissioner of the Northwest Territories."

Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Ningark.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Tabled Document 18-12(2), a document on fish sampling methodology for monitoring programs in the Northwest Territories and Alberta.

Tabling of documents.

Item 13, notices of motions. Notices of motions. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Patterson. favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Monday, March 9, 1992, I shall move that Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Real Estate Agents' Licensing Act, be read for the first time, Thank you.

Notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Monday, March 9, 1992, I shall move that Bill 22, Write-off of Assets and Debts Act, 1992, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr .Speaker, I give notice that on Monday, March 9, 1992, I shall move that Bill 23, Loan Authorization Act, 1992-93, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to move the following motion:

WHEREAS the special committee on health and social services was established by Motion 40-12(1) of this Assembly;AND WHEREAS Rule 89(2) requires that any special committee established shall consist of no more than five Members;

AND WHEREAS it is desirable to name six Members to the special committee on health and social services;

NOW THEREFORE, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Keewatin Central, that not withstanding Rule 89(2), that the special committee on health and social services consist of six Members;

AND FURTHER, that Mr. Bernhardt, Mr. Dent, Mr. Koe, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Mr. Nerysoo and Mr. Pudluk be appointed as Members to the special committee on health and social services.

Thank you.

Your motion is in order, Mr. Lewis. To the motion

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. --- Carried.

Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Mr. Whitford.

Your motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Bill 18 has had second reading and accordingly the bill stands referred to a committee. Second reading of bills. Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Whitford, your motion is in order. To the principle of the bill. To the principle of the bill.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Bill 17 has had second reading and accordingly the bill stands referred to a committee. Second reading of bills, Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Committee Report 5-2(2), Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions' Report on Appointment of Members to the Workers' Compensation Board; Tabled Document 9-12(2), Strength at Two Levels; Tabled Document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government; Tabled Document 12-12(2), Plebiscite Direction; Bill 14, Appropriation Act, No. 1,1992-93; and Committee Report 3-12(2), SCOF Review of the 1992-93 Capital Estimates, with Mr. Arvaluk in the chair.

This committee is now in order. Committee Report 5-12(2), Report on Appointment of Members to the Workers' Compensation Board. Chairman of the committee, Mr. Koe.

Opening Remarks From The Standing Committee On Agencies, Boards And Commissions

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will speak to this committee report on the appointment of members to the Workers' Compensation Board. The committee's review of this issue arose as a direct result of Ministers' Statement 24-12(2). In that statement the Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board announced appointments to fill two vacancies that presently exist on the Workers' Compensation Board. Mr. Chairman, statements and questions raised by the ordinary Members following the Minister's statement highlighted the fact that inadequate consultation had taken place prior to the announcement. More seriously, in making these appointments the Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board chose to overlook the fact that this House in its first session passed a motion recommending that no board appointments should be made until March 31, 1992. Mr. Chairman, the standing committee on agencies, boards and commissions brought this motion to the House in the first committee report tabled in the 12th Legislative Assembly. We considered this to be a significant motion, one which is necessary to provide the time for the government and standing committee to take stock of the way boards and agencies operate in the Northwest Territories. It is especially vital in the case of the Workers' Compensation Board, which already had been targeted by the standing committee for a comprehensive review.

When we met this morning, the standing committee on agencies, boards and commissions was very concerned about the way this Minister disregarded these considerations and without adequate consultation with other honourable Members of this Assembly, proceeded to appoint these two new members to the Workers' Compensation Board. We considered it an outrage to view the Minister's actions in this regard. The standing committee considered these actions undermined the committee process, and indeed can be regarded as threatening the very spirit of our consensus system of government.

Motion To Express Displeasure With Timing Of Minister's Appointments To Workers' Compensation Board

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that this Legislative Assembly express its extreme displeasure with the actions of the Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board in making appointments to the membership of the Workers' Compensation Board, in direct contradiction to the position this House adopted on December 12, 1991, which recommended that the filling of board vacancies be postponed until after March 31, 1992.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. The motion is being passed around to the Members. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am making this motion on behalf of, and at the request of, my honourable colleagues on the standing committee on agencies, boards and commissions. Members of the committee consider this to be a very serious motion. This is a motion of censure. We are bringing forward this motion in the hope that it would make it apparent to the Minister, and to cabinet as a whole, that the standing committees are serious in fulfilling their assigned roles and responsibilities. We have concerns about the apparent attitude of the Minister in this case, and we are not willing to stand by silently. I therefore urge all my honourable colleagues to support this motion today. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will not be voting on this motion, obviously, but I would like to have the chance to make a few comments, if I may. First of all, when I was first appointed to this position, I met with the Workers' Compensation Board at the first opportunity, and in the general discussion that followed one of the strong recommendations of the board and of the chairman to me was that they were having real difficulty getting on with their business because they were operating with a bare quorum. They said they had been waiting for some considerable time hoping that vacancies on the board would be filled, because it was impairing the operations of the board. This was also raised to me by the chairman, at one of our first meetings, as a problem that I should attend to, because it was impairing the operations of the board. When members from the four people who were on the board were unavailable, then the board could not meet and could not expeditiously do its work.

So, Mr. Chairman, that was put to me by the board and chairman as something that I should urgently deal with, and I proceeded to do so. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to note that, and I will refer to the chairman of the ABC committee's report that appointments, if made, "Where it is clearly in the public interest," and I would respectfully suggest that I at least had a basis for thinking it was necessary for this board to do its work to have a little bit more cushion on the quorum, that where those appointments were required that they "be made for the shortest possible term."

I would like to point out that although the Workers' Compensation Act allows appointments for up to a maximum of five years, I have made these two appointments for one year. So, Mr. Chairman, I think at least somewhat in the spirit of the motion of the House, these are short-term appointments and certainly not of the length that would ordinarily be filled. Finally...

Point of order, Mr. Zoe.

Mr. Zoe, I will have to rule that Mr. Patterson is in order, because he is talking about the membership, which is right in the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Reasons For Workers' Compensation Board Appointments

There is just one other point that I would like to make, Mr. Chairman. I understand, from talking to the chairperson of the agencies, boards and commissions committee, that they are anxious to review the operations of the Worker's Compensation Board. I want to make it clear, and I have written to the chairman stating this, that I welcome the ABC committee's interest in this board, for which I am responsible to report to the House. Furthermore, I will be pleased to co-operate fully with the committee in its work in reviewing the board and providing what ever information the committee might need to do its job.

I would like to just offer one other reason why I felt it was important to recommend to cabinet that some appointments be made now rather than later, Mr. Chairman, and that is for the reason of continuity. Mr. Chairman, the board appointments are now set to expire in June and July, within a very short space of time. My concern, Mr. Chairman, was that if it should be decided that there be replacements of the present members of the Workers' Compensation Board, you could have a situation, without appointments being made a few months earlier as these two have been made -- you could have a situation where you could have a completely new board in place in June or July, and possibly a new chairman as well. This lack of continuity is something that I am sure all Members would agree is generally not desirable with important boards with important responsibilities.

It is desirable, I believe, to stagger the terms where ever possible so that if board members are replaced there will not be a wholesale turnover of the board resulting in all new inexperienced members sitting on the board. It was with that factor of a cushion for turnover that I also recommended to cabinet that these two vacancies be filled sooner, rather than later, because I felt that if we waited until June or July and it was decided to reappoint most existing or all existing members to the board, then you would have a whole new board coming in all at once with no background or experience.

Those were some of the factors in mind, Mr. Chairman, and I do want to say that I do appreciate some Members' comments the other day in speaking to this, that we are not talking about the individuals appointed, that it is the process of appointment that is of concern. I take it to mean that Members of the Assembly generally feel that while we may have found capable people to sit on the board, the process that was followed was objectionable, or outrageous, I guess, is the term I should use.

Mr. Chairman, I hope these comments are of some assistance to Members in considering this motion. I just want to say, inclosing, that we did have a chance to discuss this matter fully in caucus earlier this week. I did appreciate the offer of Members of caucus to have input on appointments to this very important board. I have invited their input, and I welcome their suggestions about who could go on this board from hereon in. With the ABC committee's interest in reviewing the operations of the WCB, I hope we can work together from here on in, in a co-operative fashion to look at this board, to consider their recommendations for change, and to have those recommendations dealt with before any further appointments need to be dealt with in June or July.

I hear what the chairman is saying. I do accept the advice, and I think, at least from here on in, that we can consider the advice of that committee before any further appointments are made. Qujannamiik.

To the motion. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had not thought of speaking until Mr. Patterson spoke. I think the process was more than unfair. I think the fact is that the Minister did not think it necessary to consult all Members of the Assembly to seek their advice on the matter of appointments. In fact, he spoke only to certain Members of this House, to seek their advice, and did not even have the courtesy to provide Members of this House with any notice that he would be seeking the idea of appointing new members to the Workers' Compensation Board. I think that was pretty unfair. I hope that in future, whether or not it is this particular board or others, that all Members will receive the same kind of courtesy of consultation and involvement.

I think the fundamental concern and principle that is the basis of this particular motion is the matter of having Members of this House involved in determining the manner in which our government will be run and how our particular regions will be represented in a direction and manner in which our influences are heard and are to be seen. If our influence is not important, then I guess we should be told that. I do think it was pretty unfair, and I think that it was wrong, more than just to suggest that it was an error. That is all that I want to say at this particular time.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Dent.

Disappointment With Process In Workers' Compensation Board Appointments

Mrs. Marie-Jewell. To the motion.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I did want to make a couple of comments in respect to the motion. I have no problem supporting it, as I indicated my displeasure in the House a couple of days ago when the announcements were made. Basically my displeasure is on the process of the appointments, and not the appointees, because there is no doubt in my mind, as I said before, that I feel Mr. Wray is capable of doing the work. I do not know Mr. Kuptana, however. I think it is the process that has been used on this whole issue of these appointments that has disturbed the Members. There seem to be some blatant actions of ignoring recommendations of this House, and that is what is a concern to Members, a concern to myself particularly.

I recognize the Minister stated that it was upon the advice of the chairman, and in discussions with the board they feel that they needed more members. What seems ironic is the fact that under his leadership as the Government Leader, he concurred to down-size that board, and when he concurred with that he should have thought whether or not it would be difficult with their members, that they would have problems with getting a quorum. So you cannot basically say one thing, and then at a later date say another thing contradicting your actions.

I did want to state, in concurrence with the committee, that there was a recommendation in this House adopted in December. It was unanimously passed in this House. The government concurred with it. The government complimented the committee for its work, and a mere two months later, they did totally, actions against what this recommendation had asked them to do. I feel that it is not only disappointing to Members of the House who spend their time in committee meetings, meeting until sometimes 10:00 o'clock at nightseeing what they are going to do with their plan of action as a committee members -- and then for it to be totally ignored-- I think that it is ignorant of Ministers not to consider, even consider, recommendations of this House.

With respect to the way it was fulfilled, I said my viewpoint and I will say it again, that I do not believe any appointment on any board that should be respecting the wishes of the people of the Territories or looking after the interests of the people of the Territories, regardless of where they are, that the appointment selection should only be to whoever the Minister wants to consult with. He has been a Minister long enough to know that he should be conscientious in advising all Members that these appointments were to be made available, and to ask for our input.

I think the fundamental point here that Members want to make is that the Minister has to respect Members of this House in consulting before he makes decisions that affect our constituents and until he learns that he is going to keep getting criticism by Members of this House. He has to be accountable to Members that represent viewpoints on behalf of their constituents. So with that, Mr. Chairman, I do want you to know that I have no problem supporting this motion. Thank you.

To the motion. To the motion.

Question.

The question is being called. Those in favour of the motion? Opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Back to general comments on the Committee Report 5-12(2). Do we agree, then, that this matter is to be concluded?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Does the committee, then, wish to go to Bill 14 with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs? Is that agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

We will recess for 15 minutes before we start.

---SHORT RECESS

Bill 14, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1992-93 And Committee Report 3-12(2)

Will the committee come to order. What does this committee wish to do now? We are on Bill 14, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1992-93. Does this committee wish to go to the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Thank you. The Minister for MACA is Mr. Patterson. I wonder if you would like to make any opening remarks.

Municipal And Community Affairs

Minister's Opening Remarks

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps I could have picked a better day to bring my departmental estimates forward, but here I am, and I am pleased to introduce the 1992-93 capital estimates for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Mr. Chairman, the department is proposing capital estimates totalling $36,351,000 for 1992-93. Priority continues to be placed on the building of new water and sanitation infrastructure and improvements to existing infrastructure, which amounts to about 43 per cent of our proposed capital estimates, or $15,699,000. Most of these resources are allocated to water supply and treatment, water distribution, and

sewage collection systems.

Another nine per cent, or $3,234,000, is proposed for the construction of new arena facilities. Such facilities allow our athletes to prepare effectively for the Arctic Winter Games and other competitions, while providing healthy and socially worthwhile community activities for our youth and for community residents in general.

A further seven per cent, or $2,602,000, is planned for the provision of mobile equipment for road maintenance, public health, and fire protection. The equipment retrofit approach to funding mobile equipment continues to be cost effective in maintaining asset usefulness while developing the capability of municipal work staff to repair community mobile equipment.

Mr. Chairman, a further seven per cent of this budget, or$2,571,000, is identified for the planning, design, upgrading or reconstruction of community roads. In this work, the Department of Public Works frequently assists by providing engineering and contract management services to local governments.

A further three per cent, or $1,224,000, is proposed for technical and financial assistance to carry out site development. The associated drainage and landfill schemes help facilitate the development of logical community design and promote a safe and healthy environment.

The department's capital resources in 1992-93 do not address all identified basic needs and infrastructure requirements to address current community population growth and the ongoing replacement of aging capital infrastructure. However, I believe that the department's comprehensive capital planning process has identified, through consultation with local councils, the most urgent needs as represented in these proposed 1992-93 capital estimates. Those are my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Before I call for general comments, I wonder if the Minister would like to bring in any witnesses at this time.

Yes, if I may. I have two witnesses I would like to bring in.

Is this committee agreed that the Minister bring in witnesses?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Proceed, Mr. Minister. Could you introduce your witnesses for the record?

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have on my right Mr. Al Menard, deputy minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, and Mr. Vern Christensen, assistant deputy minister in charge of capital planning. Thank you.

Thank you. I wonder if the chairman of the finance committee would like to make any opening remarks. Mr. Todd.

Comments From The Standing Committee On Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I would. Mr. Chairman, the standing committee on finance, in reviewing theMACA budget, was quite concerned that the program departments must have more input into the standard of facilities we are building, particularly where the cost of construction appears to be excessive. The departments cannot abdicate their responsibility to ensure that we get the best value for money. Clearly they must communicate to DPW what their requirements are.

It was our observation that, for example, the cost of constructing hamlet offices -- we calculated specific instances where some of these hamlet offices were coming in at $318 to $381 to $382 per square foot. This was not including the time costs of Municipal and Community Affairs, Public Works, and hamlet staff. We feel these kinds of square footage costs are unreasonably high and are perhaps due to excessive standards that are being delivered, and we think that the program departments should be more intimately involved in determining these standards. We also know that hamlets have said for years that if they were allowed to control some of the capital projects, as has been suggested to some extent with the Strength at Two Levels report, they could do a better job at perhaps a more economical cost.

Another concern was with respect to facilities larger than what a community is currently entitled to. We were told that in one particular case, the community would pick up the difference. It is the contention of the standing committee on finance that indirectly the GNWT ultimately pays, and that these oversize facilities have correspondingly higher operating costs. It is the standing committee on finance's contention that this is not consistent with government policy, and frankly unfair to other communities.

The Arviat water supply we talked about is planned for construction in 1993-94 when we know the potential health problems faced in that community, and I am not specifically talking about E-coli. We are talking about others, and we know the history of that community and its problems associated with water reservoirs and water supplies. We feel this matter is an urgent one and the department should give it its immediate attention.

With respect to MACA's budget, we are going to recommend the following, and this will be done later on in resolution form: that consideration be given to advancing the Arviat water supply improvements in 1992-93; that communities be provided with basic recreational facilities, and only the basic recreational facilities based upon MACA's own criteria and according to the policy that is currently in place. We feel that cabinet should develop a policy to bring about costs closer to those experienced by the private sector, and ensure that government standards are not unreasonably high. It is the contention of the committee that a number of these buildings, if they were in design/build or some other way of doing things, could be built at a far lesser cost, and in fact provide the department with more money to do more.

We feel there has to be a closer relationship between Municipal and Community Affairs as the client department, the local authority, hamlets and Public Works as the professional advisers, to work together to achieve better value for money spent; consider new ways in which to build some of these capital projects that will ensure the maximization of local labour and control as Mr. Morin, the Minister of Public Works, talked about earlier last week; and support, of course, the local general contractors in that particular region.

We were told by people that MACA has recommended alternative approaches for some years that have not been taken. These alternatives should be pursued vigorously. Departments like MACA should have the flexibility to use other options, other than Public Works, for capital project management. Anyway, as they say in biblical terms, "Here endeth the lesson." Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I agree with some of the things that Mr. Todd is saying; not all of them, but some of them. One of the things that keeps coming up is with regard to recreational facilities. One of the things that I would like to see, with Mr. Todd's support I hope, is to see -- we do need a policy and we do need the size of facilities, but also if the community is serious about having those facilities they should be doing their part, too, prior to any facilities being established in the community. In most communities you have to pay a portion of the cost for any capital recreation facilities. When we had that building built in Fort Providence we paid $280,000.

One of the things that the community has requested is for a two-sheet curling rink. It is happening but it is happening in 1994-95, I believe. The community, Mr. Chairman, already has their portion of the money in the bank waiting for that day to come. They have $180,000 right now and their portion required, if the capital structure is $492,000, is $197,000, which they could have by that time.

The community should be doing some of their own revenue raising too. Of the projects that came up during the last eight years that I have been a Member, most of them were allocated. I do not know the success rate of the community actually picking up the rest of the tab, or if it has been successful. When I look in the capital there are several communities who make contributions but for the size of the projects, similar to Providence, they are paying far less, at least half, of what they are expected to pay. I think that is unfair. Either you have it the same across or do not have it at all.

I would like to thank the Minister and his department -- since the direction was given by the Government Leader to have the Members involved with the planning and design and infrastructure of communities, the community of Fort Providence has been doing a community plan. They have not come up with a final report but we do have copies of the process that we have been working toward at public meetings. The only difficulty that we are experiencing, Mr. Chairman, with regard to that, and I think it should be noted by the department, is that we are using consultants from Edmonton.

Shame, shame!

It costs the community to have workshops. They have one option, they go into the community and say,"This is what we have come up with," and it costs the community money, because they go back with some other plans and they come back with that one plan again and there is really no focus on -- "Well, we have three options here, what is your option?" The consultants are good for that and it costs the community a lot of money to do that. I think it should be noted because the government is spending quite a bit on it and the community is also wasting a lot of money just to support consultants for doing this work.

Mr. Chairman, the other one is that on January 29 we were at the Hay River Reserve and we met with Mr. Evans and Jim Haining, with regard to planning for the next four years on what we see as a priority for the communities. I believe the Minister received a letter from me with a motion which was recommended by your department that if you have a priority list that you want to implement, then have the communities come up with a motion supporting that. We have done that. One of the priorities for the reserve is for them to be considered within the next four years, to see if they could get a recreation facility on the reserve.

We have $700,000 this year for Fort Providence which is for a water treatment plant. That was in the works for about five years and this was supposed to be the year that they were getting it. We have been living with a small tank that supplies the water trucks. The floor has been caving in, and last year Municipal and Community Affairs put a little money into the plant itself because it was not very stable. There were holes in the cement that had to be covered with gravel and general patch-up work to ensure that the operation and delivery of water would be adequate for that one year. I am glad that we are finally going to be getting a new plant.

The community of Fort Providence has also suggested that because the government is in a deficit position, and that we are in restraint, they have decided that at this point in time -- if we look at the capital books from the previous years it says that Fort Providence, for example, will be getting a treatment plant. There are a number of years where there is approximately two million dollars, until 1997, for a core water and sewage service. Because of the financial situation of the government they have decided that there is no urgency for something like that to go ahead and we could back off on it. Whenever the opportunity arises where there is financial stabilization by the government they will wish to be considered for a core water and sewage system. That is their wish.

I thought I should let you know that the community has been able to compromise to say that they are willing to make this sacrifice and continue with their water delivery services and sewage services. The only thing that I want to tell the Minister is that we are short on the delivery of water services, and for the pump-out systems too. Because of the demand we have people working two shifts, working overtime, working on Christmas and on holidays. I would just like the Minister to know that we probably need the third water truck pretty soon if we are going to keep up with the demands of the community. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to make a couple of remarks with regard to this particular department. I know from the Minister's statement that one aspect of community development that is important is the matter of drainage, in terms of land developments and municipal developments. I just wanted to ask the Minister if he could deal with his other colleagues, the Minister responsible for Public Works and the Minister of Housing, to address this particular matter. There have been some concerns that have been raised previously, in some of the municipalities, about who is actually responsible for making the decisions about drainage, and who is responsible for actually constructing or placing those systems into the community, and who is responsible for paying for it. In some instances there seems to be some confusion as to who is supposed to pay for it and I would ask, not necessarily criticize the process as it is right now, but ask that the Minister try to resolve some of those particular matters with other Ministers so that we do not have some of the problems that we are now encouraging.

I also wanted to ask the Minister and his department officials, whether or not you could seriously consider reviewing the capital budget and, in some cases, dealing with private enterprise, providing some of the facilities or requirements that are outlined in the document. I note, for instance, in one particular case a staff house in Arctic Red River; that particular project is to be considered this year. Not that I am opposed to the idea of that funding, but ask whether or not there might be another way of considering leasing, for instance, a unit if the band was to build it or if somebody else was to build it, at less capital cost, but taking into consideration the ongoing O and M. I just note that because we are in a situation now, financially, we have to look at all of the alternatives possible, and I would ask you if you could at least consider that. It may not be possible but I would ask that you consider it. I would ask you to consider that in a number of the other projects that are being considered in the document. Maybe you can deal with those other issues first.

In dealing with this last issue, I do not want to put anybody in an awkward position here but I want to address this matter, and unfortunately I was in the chair yesterday when the Housing Corporation was up. I would ask the Minister to review whether or not we could, when there are reproduction requirements in the NWT, whether or not we could ensure that if there are companies in the North that can deal with reproduction of blueprints and community plans, that companies in the North can be given an opportunity to receive some of those kinds of contracts. I do not want to put any body in an awkward position but I would like the Minister to at least consider that and to deal with it appropriately,

Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask the same thing of the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation through a written letter, and also the Minister of Public Works. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.