Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Does the Minister wish to invite witnesses?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, could you introduce your witness, please?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, to my right is the acting deputy minister of Transportation, Mr. Andrew Gamble.

Thank you. If Members will recall, Mr. Antoine was in the midst of his general comments yesterday, so I will go back on general comments to Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On Transportation, by general comments yesterday, I was talking about my support for finishing the highway from Wrigley north through Fort Norman and Norman Wells. Yesterday I was quoting some prices I got from 1985. That is the last time that I received some figures. I was going to offer those figures as something to start with.

I had talked about it yesterday, and today I am just going to say that in the area of transportation, we also have airports. In most of the communities we have airports in my area, but Nahanni Butte is another community in my constituency that requires an airport. They have a small strip and sometimes it is not possible for the plane to land there. The only transportation in there is through air in the summertime, so it is necessary to have an airport in Nahanni Butte. Also, they have buffalo there too, so this time of the year the pilots have to fly past the airport to check the airstrip to see that there are no buffalo droppings on the airstrip, because that is dangerous.

Anyway, that is just a side point, but in the rest of my region we have winter roads, and in a question the other day the Minister said they were going to review the winter roads budget. I am concerned about it. We have winter roads into Trout Lake and Nahanni Butte, and there is the construction of a road out of Jean Marie but that is not going to be completed for the next few years. These three communities require winter roads and if there are going to be some changes to it, it is certainly going to affect the people in these communities, and I have some concern about it. This is for the people that rely on winter roads. That is my general comment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As for the winter roads, there is not going to be a change for the remainder of this year, but for next year we are reviewing the opening days and the closing days of the winter roads because of the concern raised by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. They are concerned about the environmental concern regarding crossings of rivers and lakes. If there are going to be any changes to the opening and closing of winter roads, we will keep the public informed as much as possible and communicate to the communities who that affected.

As for the roads, road construction to the Member's particular area, our plan has not changed. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. The people of Wrigley have waited for the bridge to be built across the Willowlake River to provide direct road access to Fort Simpson for some years now, and every year they look forward to growth in the tourism and resource harvesting sectors. This bridge has been bumped back a few years, I am told, and this year especially most of the capital projects for Wrigley have been bumped, so they were gearing up to hopefully have some work on this transportation, so I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation; can the Minister tell me when this important transportation link will be built?

Thank you. Mr. Allooloo.

Mr. Chairman, there was a meeting yesterday consisting of the chief of Wrigley and my department concerning this. The community is aware that the decision to defer the opening of the Mackenzie Highway to Wrigley by one year was discussed, and the capital expenditure for the building of a bridge over Willowlake River was discussed. The current winter road serving the community will not be affected by this decision, but the road that was planned to be constructed for this year has been deferred by one year.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am a little confused. The transportation strategy that has been put in place, and God knows what it cost us -- are we using that strategy as a means by which to determine priorities as to where things are going regionally right now? That is my first question.

The second one was, my understanding was that there was going to be some kind of joint federal/territorial initiative where this government was going to put "X" amount of dollars into the pot, the feds were going to match it, and those dollars were going to be used to build the infrastructure we need whether it was wharves, roads, highways or airports. I wonder if it is possible that you could let me know the status of that. Is that whole strategy still in place in relationship to the joint funding?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the strategy that was developed and tabled in this House back in 1990 was used as a guide, and also with respect to the plans that we have developed in terms of addressing the requirements of roads and transportation throughout the Northwest Territories. We are still talking to the federal government to see where they could help us. As far as I am told, the Ministers of Transportation throughout the country still have to meet on this issue, and I am told that the federal Minister of Transportation is very interested in this document that our government has developed. So far, the meeting of Ministers of Transportation is scheduled some time this fall I believe.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Todd.

So am I incorrect, then, in the information I have, where I thought we were in fact in the throes of negotiating a 10-year, half a billion dollar agreement, where we would throw $25 million in and the feds would match it to develop this infrastructure. Has something gone by the wayside or is it just that I have been given incorrect information?

Thank you. Mr. Allooloo.

That was an offer made by our government to start negotiating. The actual negotiations have not commenced.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, one of the things that I have a concern with is with regard to the heavy vehicles that are on the roads. I will talk about the patrols later. Mr. Chairman, one of the things that I find is that the government is spending millions and millions of dollars improving the roads, which I appreciate and which I am sure people travelling on the roads appreciate, but unlike most provinces, I guess we do not really restrict heavy vehicles from travelling on the highways on certain days of the week. In BC the big trucks are not allowed to travel on certain days on highways, to allow lighter traffic to travel. In the North, it is quite different because of the gravel situation. I am hoping that maybe the government might look at the possibility of allowing maybe one day in a week on which we would restrict heavy vehicles from travelling, to allow the general public to be able to travel on those roads without doing too much damage to windshields and that. I am just wondering whether or not this has ever been discussed, and whether it is possible to maybe look at doing that. Mr. Chairman, I am one person that does use the road quite a bit, and there are big tankers and semi trucks that travel the road quite steadily.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As far as regulating trucks travelling on our roads, we have the same rule as other provinces regarding weight. We have weigh scale stations to monitor these heavy trucks. As far as the Member's concern for heavy trucks -- that we should have some sort of regulation where there be a day when there would be no heavy trucks -- my department is not aware that this happens in other provinces. It is something we could look at, but I am told this might not be advisable. We have inter-provincial agreements with other provinces regarding safety, and regulating big trucks coming into the NWT. Those agreements are applied throughout Canada. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, last year the community of Fort Providence did the right-of-way clearing for sections of the highway between Yellowknife and Providence, and another one between Providence and Enterprise, and the job was well done. One of the things that I ran into last year, Mr. Minister, was that the community of Fort Providence negotiated a contract to do the clearing between the Fort Simpson junction and on toward Yellowknife. They decided to use a contractor from out of the community, Fort Liard to be specific, but it eventually went back to the community and a local contractor was used. I have a letter from the contractor.

I do not know if there are going to be further negotiations with regard to clearing the right of way, but the community is still interested in doing that. In order not to get into controversy, one of the conditions for negotiations should be, "Okay, we agree that we will give you the negotiated contract to do the right-of-way clearing, but also that you use the local contractors, as opposed to using outside contractors."

I got into quite a bit of hot water over this from the contractor. It eventually went back to the local contractor, but it started out that they were going to use an outside contractor. The contractor wrote to me just to prove a point that it is a lot better to use local contractors and give consideration to lowering the cost per hectare, and if it was negotiated with the local band you would save a lot of money by doing that. I would hope that if you are going to do the same thing with the arrangement, it would be the same thing, that you express that in order to alleviate controversy -- if the band is going to get it then they use a local contractor.

Mr. Chairman, the other thing is with regard to Mr. Wray's report on the Transportation Strategy. Is the whole intent of this for the economic benefits, as well as the employment benefits, mobility benefits, safety benefits, increasing tourism --is it still your department's target to complete the section between Fort Providence and Fort Rae; complete the reconstruction and pavement by 1997?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to contracts and the clearing of right of ways, it was on our insistence that contractors use local people to do the work that this was able to be done. We will continue to insist that local people, local involvement, be used to clear the right of ways.

As for the second question, yes, it is our target to meet 1997 as the target date for finishing the highway, but that will largely depend on the funds that are available to us. It is still our target. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the response that the Minister has given. Several years ago, when Eliza Lawrence was still the MLA, she pushed quite strongly for a bridge across Little Buffalo River and she did succeed in

getting it. The bridge was built in 1986 at a cost of between $900,000 and one million dollars and was officially opened. Eliza was very proud of that and she thanked the Minister, Mr. Wray, at that time.

One of the concerns that was expressed by Mr. Antoine was to see -- I know there is a delay in the bridge being constructed on Willowlake River. I realize that under this Transportation Strategy there is a high priority being put on the reconstruction of the roads between Enterprise and Yellowknife. I appreciate that a high priority has been given to that, but at the same time I would hope that where there is a need to do improvements the government would be open to delegating some of the construction dollars that go toward Highway No. 3, specifically, so that we might be able to help out other areas. I drive the road and I am satisfied that it is the best, for the present situation, and we could still live with it if you decide to move your target date to the year 2000. I am just suggesting that there are other areas where the conditions are worse and it would not hurt -- if there was a reduction in the construction of the roads between here and Providence, for example. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Member for his advice, his very good advice, and I will take his concerns and his advice very seriously. Thank you.

General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have discussed this with the Minister, regarding docks in Coral Harbour. He is already aware that the dock is being used by NTCL, Northern Transportation Company Limited, at this time, and it gets worse every year. It is probably very expensive. The residents of Coral Harbour have worked quite hard to plan for a new dock that they want. There will not be a calmer area; it is not always calm but it is in a calmer area. This dock would be very useful to the community, to the NTCL also. There is a lot of limestone in that area, and a lot of times NTCL go back to Churchill without anything on the ship, and maybe we would be able to ship some out. Since the dock is too small, the smaller canoes are sometimes damaged by the bigger boats, especially when it gets windy. I wrote a letter to that Minister, and the residents of Coral Harbour have also made designs of how they want the dock to be built. I would like to ask the Minister why the study to build a dock in Coral Harbour is not included in the capital estimates.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Prior to the development of this capital estimate, I had not received the letters he indicated. After receiving this letter I have asked my officials to look into the Member's concern. The reason it is not in the current detail of capital is because it was too late to submit it. The dock in Coral Harbour -- we would like to upgrade it beginning in 1994-95, completing it close to 1997. It will be completed in 1995-96 to 1996-97. We are aware of Coral Harbour's situation regarding the canoes that he indicated and regarding the sealift. I can tell the Member for Aivilik that we will look into this further, and we will consider it as urgent. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Minister's comments and information. In light of what I have said regarding the requirement for a wharf, I would like to make a motion, Mr. Chairman.

Motion For Action Plan To Construct Wharf In Coral Harbour, Carried

I move that this committee request the Department of Transportation to initiate a discussion with the community of Coral Harbour, to assist the community initiative for the development of a community action plan for the construction of a wharf in Coral Harbour. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The motion is in order. We will take a 10 minute break, and come back and deal with the motion.

---SHORT RECESS

I will call the committee back to order. When we left, Mr. Arvaluk had just introduced a motion. Members will recall I ruled the motion in order. To the motion. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a very short statement to the motion. In light of the work plan that has already been done by the Coral Harbour residents, and the financial restraint of the Government of the Northwest Territories, we are simply asking the government to work with the community to give an action plan for the construction of the wharf.

I have had a few telephone calls with the Farmers' Association in Saskatchewan, and I have had a meeting with them a year and a half ago. There is also the threat, by the federal government, to shut down the railway to Churchill. If we were to start exporting some of that limestone then we could participate in keeping that railway open. There are so many reasons to talk about in this task, Mr. Chairman, that I seek the support in that motion. Thank you.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Are there any further general comments? Mr. Todd.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move forward with some general resolutions at this time, with respect to the Transportation budget.

Yes, Mr. Todd.

Motion To Re-Examine Transportation Priorities From A Cost And Benefit Basis, Carried

I move that the committee recommends that cabinet re-examine transportation priorities from a cost and benefit basis, and in light of other fundamental needs of NWT residents.

Thank you. The copies are circulating right now. Your motion is in order.

Question.

The question has been called. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Any further general comments? Member for Nahendeh. Motion That Transportation Department Maximize Use Of Local People For Capital Projects, Carried

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have got a motion here. I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Transportation utilize its capital budget to make work for local people to the maximum extent. Thank you.

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion. Member for Nahendeh.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This motion is straightforward. It is for the capital project on Transportation going into different communities, if the local people would be considered to do most of the work, if they are capable of doing it through their corporations and other businesses that may exist in those communities; the idea is to keep the money that is going into the community in the community as much as possible. Thank you.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

The question has been called. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Are there any further general comments? Ms. Mike.

Motion To Improve Transportation Infrastructure, Carried

I move that the committee recommends that Transportation infrastructure be improved where it is substantiated that impediment to industry that creates jobs exists.

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion. Member for Baffin Central.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion is simple and it is regarding people in the community being given the opportunity to work and to make money in the community, that they be given the opportunity so that people with no jobs will be given the opportunity.

To the motion.

Question.

The question has been called. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Are there any further general comments? Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake.

Could we have a copy of that motion, please? Thank you. Your motion is in order.

Question.

Question has been called, but I do not have a quorum. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Are there any further general comments? Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple of general concerns that I wanted the department to take note of. I have listened, with some interest, to many of the speakers who have spoken about highways over the last couple of days. Much of the discussion is centred around the highway system in the southern part of the Western Arctic. I want to ask the Minister if we had turned over to us the total responsibility for the Dempster Highway, or whether or not that particular highway was still under the responsibility of, at least for reconstruction, the jurisdiction of the federal government? I would like to know the status of that situation.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Dempster Highway is a territorial highway now. It is under our responsibility.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now that I know what the status is, I want to make a couple of comments. First of all, the kind of granular material that is being used for reconstruction on that particular highway, particularly in the mountainous area where, I do not believe, the material that the department is accepting is good material. In fact, what we have noted, even after the reconstruction last summer, is that the material breaks up almost into shale, and breaks up into a point where it is all mud. I am not certain about the quality of material that you are paying for. I would ask the Minister if he could speak to those people who are working in the community, on the highway, that I believe would have better knowledge of the material that you are using.

The other point that I wanted to make is, I was kind of curious as to why we had transferred to us the responsibility of that highway before it was completely constructed to a quality of other highways. Now we are assuming basic responsibility for what I consider to be an incomplete highway, in terms of its quality and in terms of the amount of work that has to be done just reconstructing that highway.

Another point I wanted to raise, Mr. Chairman, is that I would really like, at some time, to get an indication by government really what they intend to do with Arctic Red River. They keep saying that it is on the highway, and the fact is that it is not on the highway. It is connected to the highway, but it is not on the highway. There is no year-round connection to that community. There have been some discussions about a bridge connection, but there has been no indication to the community what the status of that proposal is.

Services For Old Communities Versus New Communities

There is no proposal for an airport, and it is interesting to note -- I do not want to be critical of the situation of Mr. Zoe or his constituency, but we are going to build a new airport in Snare Lake when that community was not in existence 10 years ago. It really came out of an outpost camp. I am kind of curious as to how and why those kinds of decisions are made. What is the process for long-time communities to get at least the same kind of service and same kind of support for the services that they are providing to a community like Snare Lake or Colville Lake? I just want to know what the criteria are that this government uses. I do not believe that it is clear to the people, and it is certainly not clear to me what the criteria are. Maybe it has to do with political association. I think it is wrong, the way we determine long-term policies.

The other point that I wanted to raise is that one aspect of the long-term strategy that was not noted was this idea of the connection between the Dempster and Aklavik. I have to say, again, to our government that there are other aspects to connections with the gravel sources that you have to consider. We are paying on a yearly basis, and I note, interestingly, in the needs assessment that between now and the year 2000 we are going to spend over three million dollars for annual gravel hauls. Maybe that money would be better spent on long-term access, on a yearly basis rather than a daily basis, rather than on a short-term basis. I say that because we should be looking at how we might be able to spend our money wisely and save this government in the long term, and the communities in the long term.

The one other point that I wanted to raise is, again, going back to Arctic Red River, I am not certain the absolute solution -- and one of the proposals that had been made was the idea of purchasing another ferry to run between the Dempster and the community -- but I am not sure if that is the best way of spending money. Your intentions are to have two ferries in that particular location, and it has never been a matter that has really been dealt with, with the community.

The other point is that the services that are being offered by our government are being delivered out of Fort McPherson. Our health services, our police services, our economic development officers, our social workers, our renewable resource officers, all those services right now are being delivered out of Fort McPherson. And when you do not have access on a year-round basis, then how do those services get delivered to those people? That is generally what I wanted to raise. How you deal with them is a matter of planning, but it is a matter of planning internally in government, and not only with this particular department. I wanted to raise those points.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We agree with the Member that the material we used on the Dempster Highway is a poor granular material. We are using the best that we have available to us for surfacing the Dempster Highway. We are looking for other granular material that would be better material to do that, and we are looking at Inuvik and other sources. We have a plan in place to reconstruct the Dempster Highway starting in 1995. We are still looking at the feasibility of the bridge at Arctic Red River, and along with that it is in our transportation strategy to look at the airport as well as the feasibility of a bridge into Arctic Red River.

For the Dempster Highway to include Aklavik, our information up to this point is that the cost is very high compared to the benefits, and also Aklavik has a barge service, as the Member stated, and also a winter road during that season. I agree with the Member that our long-term goal at some point in the future is, when we are able, to construct a year-round road to Aklavik. We would prefer that, but at this point in time because of the financial realities that exist throughout our government and the resources that are available to our department, the best we can do at this point is a barge and winter road. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, if I might indicate that there were a couple of other factors that were of significant concern to the communities on the Dempster. One was the matter of safety, the quality of the highway, which probably everyone including your department is dealing with at this particular time. I just wanted to raise the point that people are concerned about the safety conditions of those highways.

The other thing is that we have an opportunity, in particular on the Dempster -- not to diminish the importance of the highway system in the southern Northwest Territories -- but we have a great opportunity to take advantage of the economic opportunities that particular highway offers. One just has to become aware of the value of the tourist industry in the Yukon, and you will note that some of the reasons are the significant developments that have occurred in the highway system. We are not quite as fortunate in the Northwest Territories at this particular time, but I think with each improvement they made to the highway system, it seems they are drawing more and more people back into the Yukon.

In that context, I am hoping the department will at least liaise with other departments that are involved in this area, review the transportation strategy, and review it in the context of some of the immediate payouts to the communities, because it seems that sometimes we are not acknowledging that there could be some immediate payouts to improvements in areas where it is necessary.

I wanted, also, to raise the matter of the $25 million, if that is correct, with the federal government. I believe it was a point that was raised by Mr. Todd earlier. Could the Minister keep the Members informed as to the status of those discussions, and whether or not the federal government is prepared to somehow fund on an emergency basis some of the transportation requirements in the Northwest Territories?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Safety is our concern as well. We are spending money to maintain the highway and also to improve the safety on the Dempster Highway. I agree with the Member that safety should be the most important area that we could be working on, and we are doing this. We agree, also, that there is a significant tourism potential if we improve the Dempster Highway, and this is one of the factors that we will consider in planning for improvements, and we will continue to work with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism on this issue.

With respect to the negotiations with the federal government, once we commence the negotiations, we will keep the House informed, as well as the Members, by letter. If we have any movement in this particular area, we will let the Members know what is happening. Thank you.

Marine Services

Buildings And Works, Headquarters, Total Capital, Agreed

Thank you. General comments. Does this committee wish to go page by page? Thank you. We are on page 11-9, Department of Transportation, detail of capital. Marine services, buildings and works, headquarters, total region, $600,000. Agreed.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Mr. Gargan.

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, just with regard to marine operations, last year I thought there were plans by the department to put a ferry at Camsell Bend, and the ferry from the Liard Highway would be put at Camsell Bend. The ferry from Providence was going to be put in Fort Liard. Is there a chance to build a new ferry?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we are constructing a ferry that is to go into the Liard crossing, and the Liard crossing's Johnny Berens would be moved to Camsell Bend. Thank you.

Buildings And Works, Fort Smith, Total Capital, Agreed

Fort Smith, total region, $500,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Total Capital, Agreed

Total buildings and works, $1,100,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Equipment Acquisition, Headquarters, Total Capital, Agreed

Equipment acquisition, headquarters, total region, $25,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Equipment Acquisition, Total Capital, Agreed

Total equipment acquisition, $25,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Marine Services, Total Capital, Agreed

Total activity, $1,125,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Highway Operations

Buildings And Works, Headquarters, Total Capital, Agreed

Highway operations, buildings and works, headquarters, total region, $1,010,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Fort Smith, Total Capital, Agreed

Buildings and works, Fort Smith, total region, $325,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Inuvik, Total Capital, Agreed

Buildings and works, Inuvik, total region, $70,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Total Capital, Agreed

Total buildings and works, $1,405,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Equipment Acquisition, Headquarters, Total Capital, Agreed

Page 11-12. Equipment acquisition, headquarters, total region, $1,170,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Equipment Acquisition, Total Capital, Agreed

Total equipment acquisition, $1,170,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Highway Operations, Total Capital, Agreed

Total activity, $2,575,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Arctic Airports

Buildings And Works, Headquarters, Total Capital, Agreed

Page 11-14. Arctic Airports, buildings and works, headquarters, total region, $802,000.

Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Inuvik, Total Capital, Agreed

Buildings and works, Inuvik, total region, $85,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Baffin, Total Capital, Agreed

Buildings and works, Baffin, total region, $300,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Keewatin, Total Capital, Agreed

Page 11-15. Buildings and works, Keewatin, total region, $2,020,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Buildings And Works, Kitikmeot, Total Capital, Agreed

Buildings and works, Kitikmeot, total region, $1,075,000. Mr. Bernhardt.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask this question of the Minister. Rehab/expand air terminal building, Coppermine. I notice there are prior years' costs of $100,000. To my knowledge, Mr. Minister, I do not see any improvement worth $100,000 to our present air terminal building in Coppermine, other than two brand new posters, and they cannot be worth $100,000.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.