Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. By going to this meeting we, as the provincial Ministers of Housing, are going to try to convince the federal housing government to reinstate funding back to the 1991-92 levels. That is number one priority. Also, 1, as the Minister, will be continuing to pressure them so that we continue to enjoy a 6.44 per cent of the pie. Those are the two issues. Whatever size that pie is, I do not want to see any decrease - if anything, an increase of the Territories' portion. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Without saying that you do not want to put all your eggs in the one basket, if we assume the worst scenario, just for arguments sake, what steps are we going to look at to continue to provide at least the same levels of public housing? What alternatives are we going to look at in terms of providing public housing units to the people across the Northwest Territories? With the current shortfall of close to 3500 units, if this situation comes to pass, and even though you get to the 1991-92 levels, there will still be this massive shortfall of 3500 units, which is about a $600 million price tag in today's prices. I would hope that some action is being taken now to look at alternatives. We just cannot look at one scenario. If we get a negative answer, or even If we got a reduction, Mr. Chairman, and you do not got your share of the pie, I wonder If you could, for our benefit, give us some idea of what kind of alternative options the Housing Corporation and your office are currently looking at, Mr. Morin.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Regardless of whether we get our funding back or not, we have to look at what we are doing in housing. We have to look at what we are building. Right now, the department is looking at redesigning the units to get them back down to simplicity so

June 24, 1992 that they are cheaper and so that our people can maintain them in the communities. Also, as Members know, we can build seven HAP houses for the price of one public unit, so we are looking right now at revising that program so that more people can be eligible for that program.

We have to look at different ways of supplying rental social housing, for example, more utilization of the rent supp program. All those things combined will help us, but It is not going to close the gap, guaranteed. When there is no money, there is no money. If you have only so much money, you can only build that much stuff. If worse comes to worst and we do everything possible in the Housing Corporation, along with the communities trying to maximize and stretch every dollar we do have, we will have to look at possibly more money if you are going to try to close that gap. Right now if it stays the way it is, as the federal government is saying, we are building 372 cost-shared units this year, and we should really only be building 265. We would be down to approximately 153 cost-shared units next year, Mr. Todd.

We are not sitting back waiting. We are looking at new ways of delivering the programs and new construction designs, and different programs, and we want flexibility from CMHC so we can use those things to cut costs and to got a better bang for our buck.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, I recognize what you are saying, but can I ask this question and maybe be a little bit more specific? I also have a comment While I recognize, and I have said to the Minister on a number of occasions, that you can, in accordance with the financing formula with CMHC, build X amount of HAP houses versus one public, but there is still a great deal of people who require social housing, so a certain amount of caution has to be taking place. While in an ideal world we would all like to own our own houses, there are a number of people who just do not have the financial capacity to do that, and, as a socially responsible government, our job is to ensure that these people are given a fair opportunity to have housing.

My concern would be that there would be an enthusiastic rush to get seven houses versus one, and I think we have to balance that very carefully. I can understand the enthusiasm for it, and I am sympathetic, but there has to be a certain amount of caution in that there is still a requirement for what I call public-funded social housing. That is the one point I would like to make.

On the other point, I am wondering if I can ask the Minister about the rent income supplement program which I understand works reasonably well in some of the larger centres. Could this type of program perhaps be incorporated into the other parts of the Arctic where you have private sector initiative, to build these houses, and you have Housing Corporation support'? Two questions, and one is more a comment. I want to caution the Minister in terms of we are all enthusiastic about the HAP program and nobody is more enthusiastic than I am, but we must ensure that It does not take away from those who have the least; that is, the people who desperately need public housing. While I am an advocate of the HAP program, HAP people usually are in a position to at least pay the O and M, and in some cases have the capacity to build their own home. A lot of people, not everybody, who are in public housing have the capacity to build their own homes. A lot of people, not everybody, who are in public housing have the capacity to do neither. I wonder, too, if perhaps there is some way of accelerating or maintaining the current level. It might be an advance in this rent income supplement program. I wonder what your thoughts are on that, Mr. Morin.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The HAP program, if it is expanded and the criteria is changed, there is a large portion of people living in public housing who could be eligible for that and they could afford it. We are not going to shove home ownership down the throats of people that cannot afford it Let me assure the Member that I would like to build a vast majority of HAP units, because you do get the best bang for your dollar, but I understand that we need some social housing, so I will ensure that need is met as well.

The rent subsidy program, where private business, development corporations or community corporations build houses, and we rent them for 20 years, is a very straightforward program. It has been used in the major communities. It will be expanded. I have already given direction for it to be expanded. This year instead of a proposal call for build/supply/ship/erect, I am going to go rent supp in Iqaluit, Hay River, Fort Smith, Inuvik and Fort Simpson. I have expanded it already, and I will continue to expand it into any community we can, because you got to build more units that way as well. Those are units that are subsidized by the NWT Housing Corporation so that they meet the social housing needs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Just one last item, on this subject anyway. One of the things I was wondering, and I do not have the statistics so I am not sure of this question, but a number of people who are working for the GNWT could be living in public housing in these communities, and I am wondering if there is some way that we could find a way to accelerate the employee home purchase program that Mr. Kakfwi was working on, and whether that would have any impact. Lot me use this situation in the Keewatin, if I may. I have a lady working for the government for the past seven or eight years in public health. There is some government housing that could be available for purchase. If she was prepared to purchase that house, that would free up that one public health house. Now, I do not know if it warrants looking at. Maybe it is so small it has no impact, but you may want to take a look at trying to accelerate or expand the employee purchase program with the GNWT, as there may be some people there who may be prepared to do that. Thank you.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Nothing is too small to look at. We have to look at everything because dollars are tight. We will look into that Mr. Todd. You see, a government employee must have a full-time job, so homeownership is the way to go if people are working full time. We have to keep our public units open for those who cannot afford to own their own home.

I will just make a correction, Mr. Chairman. We are not expanding the rent supp program to Inuvik this year.

Thank you. On my list I have Mr. Koe, but he is not in the House at the moment. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to recognize and congratulate Mr. Minister for taking the time to meet with the federal Minister responsible for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. I know the Minister has a very, very tough job ahead of him, especially when the funding from the federal government, according to my understanding, is to be reduced because of the budget restraint of the national government, and especially when the population growth in the NWT is very high in comparison to the national average.

Mr. Todd, my colleague, talks about other options, and other alternatives. As most of the Members are aware, in some of the communities in the eastern part of the Territories and in the western part of the Territories, we have co-op communities where they have co-op stores and co-op hotels. I guess one of the alternatives or options we can look at is to communicate to the co-ops in some of the communities. Some co-ops are not members of Arctic Co-op Limited; others are members. Some years ago, Mr. Chairman, in my community, which is predominantly co-op, we do not have other stores, and we do not have Northern or Hudson Bay, we talked about the possibility of getting into co-op housing. I think the matter is something we can look at because the coops are owned by the community and the money stays in the community; therefore, the financial benefits remain in the community. It is one way that would help to reduce the need and demand for housing. I would like to suggest to the Minister that this is something we can look into. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One part I did not mention too much, because we have hardly used it in the Territories, is co-op housing. We used It in Fort Smith and Yellowknife, but that program was cut completely in 1992 from the federal government, but It is something I will look into. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The only thing I am suggesting is that, as the Minister suggested, It is cheaper to get HAP housing, if the co-op housing would be cheaper than HAP housing or equivalent to it. I am not asking for a commitment, but if it is equivalent to HAP housing or maybe cheaper, I think it is something we can look at. Thank you. That was not a question.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Possibly, Mr. Ningark, we can follow up on that between the two of us and see what we can do. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Thank you. As we are on the subject of housing, earlier in the session, after the Minister was appointed, he had made statements about his commitment for housing construction, design/construction, and that utilizing of labour would be almost totally northern. I would like to commend the Minister for taking that stand, and hopefully you are improving and working on that to have total northern goods and services, including the hiring of workers and training of these workers where required. I think we know in most communities it is required and we have to put some restrictions or qualifications on contracts to have companies train and utilize northern people.

I am aware there are some pilot projects going on this year where you are designing, and constructing and utilizing northern contractors. Can the Minister indicate how many communities are involved in these types of projects this summer?