Thank you. Are there any further general comments? Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for not being able to sit through some of the discussions yesterday during the committee of the whole. I am one who has made a statement in the last sitting as to the housing needs, and the problems that we have with housing in my constituency. I am very concerned about the number of houses, or social houses, that are being reduced. I would like to ask the Minister if he could outline what the basis of our strategy has been to convince the federal government to reinstate our funding and to do everything possible to educate the federal government, as well as Ministers from provincial jurisdictions, of our uniqueness and our special needs in housing?

We have been quite successful in doing that. I myself, was able to obtain a meeting with the Honourable Elmer MacKay in Ottawa, and no other jurisdiction was able to do that. We were also able to get the provincial Minister's to support, giving the Northwest Territories, and the Yukon, special consideration because of our uniqueness on our housing problems.

We were also able to have the Minister of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation take to the Treasury Board, a submission to reinstate our housing. We will continue to use that same strategy, as well as add to it.

Thank you. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

From what I understand, it sounded like you had convinced the Minister in the federal government to accept the reasons, your reasons, and bring it to cabinet. I am wondering what was the reasoning behind the Cabinet declining the request made by the Minister at the federal level? Thank you.

Mr. Minister.

In very simple terms, the federal Treasury Board's reaction was, sorry no money.

I myself, am not willing to accept that answer, because like yourself, and every Member of this Assembly realizes, our people are in very dire straights for social housing. We cannot lay down and accept a "no" from the Treasury Board, as well. we have to continue to try, and whatever door is open, and get our money reinstated, or our people will be in very bad condition.

Thank you. General comments? Mr. Ningark.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Regarding the houses in the Arctic, they are very essential, and with the housing that we have had, we cannot go back to that. We cannot go back to living in igloos, we have been using houses, and we are used to living in houses. When there is not enough housing, the Inuit want houses, and there is not enough housing available.

I know they are going to start turning towards more money and assistance, and it will be costing us more. The federal government would be using more money. Why would we be using more money if we do not have enough housing available for the people of the north? We all know that when there are two many people in one house, there are a lot of diseases that come up. In the physical sense and mental sense, and when there are not enough houses available, and one house is too crowded, there is a lot of violence. When a house is too crowded, it will deteriorate, and when there are school children in one house, they will not be able to continue their education. Even if they bring their homework to that house, they will not be able to complete their assignments, because there are too many people in that house.

They will not be able to think properly if the house is too noisy. We would have to use more money, because of those students who are not being able to continue with their education. We have to pay for our children's education. These are all costly. We all know that the government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government of Ottawa, have to try and understand that, because they are in fiscal restraint right now. They cannot give us any more houses, they decreased the houses, we will be using more money as a result of it. (translation ends)

We realize that we have a very big problem with housing in the past. Mr. Chairman, we realize that we have a problem. This is something that every Member of this House, as long as I have been a Member of this House for the past three years, has brought up, regarding the problem of not getting adequate social housing for the people of the N.W.T. within the small communities. Even in the larger centres of the territories.

We know the situation is bad. We know the government does not have money to provide the obligation to provide shelter for the people of Canada, especially the people of the N.W.T. The situation is going to get worse, Mr. Chairman, if the federal government should cut the allocation to the N.W.T., under the housing program.

I say that, because I know there will be consequences. There are already consequences under the system. When I say consequences, I am speaking of overcrowding of social houses in the small communities, and larger communities, across the territories. When you talk about overcrowding, you are talking about people who are not happy, as a result of overcrowding.

You have social problems, and you have mental problems, you have health problems in the overcrowding situations. Even the students are going to be affected by this problem. I have seen that in my community, and I am sure in the other communities across the territories, that when there is the situation of overcrowding in the household, kids have to come home and do their homework at the end of the day, and they are not able to do that, because of this situation that I stated. How can a child do their homework, when you have people running all over the house. You have people in the bedrooms, you have people in the livingroom, you have people in the kitchen, you have music in the livingroom, music in the bedroom, television in the livingroom, and television in the bedroom. How can we, the government of the N.W.T., and the government at the federal level, not see the future consequences?

As I stated, Mr. Chairman, if we are not able control this situation within this time, we are going to see some consequences. The consequences are going to be far greater than they are now. We are going to be devastated by this, but I think we know that every Member of this House is concerned. Every Member of this House knows the situation, of the social housing problem, in each community, in each region. I know that there is a sense of working together on this issue, if we do not, we are accountable to the public.

I can tell you, my colleagues, we can do something about that. It is not too late, we can send the message to the federal government, and other jurisdictions, that the north is unique. Social housing is one of the essential programs. The federal government has an obligation to provide social housing for the people of this country, especially the people of the north.

We live in a harsh climate. We live in an unforgiving climate. Although we live in a beautiful part of Canada, the weather, the climate, can be very unforgiving.

Mr. Chairman, I know the honourable Minister is sincerely trying very hard to do something about this situation. He has to be, he told us that yesterday. I would like to commend the honourable Minister for discussing the matter with us. I recognize that we do not have the money, in this government, to deal with every problem. This one situation is something that we cannot let go without fighting for it. Thank you.

---Applause

Are there any other general comments? Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, thank you. Since yesterday, we have been working on this issue dealing with the shortage of housing. While we are aware, that there will be continual shortage of funding, and continual lack of housing, as Mr. Ningark used in his example, I too, can come up with an example in ways that we can approach the federal government for further assistance.

We have to be well organized. For example, last April, when we held our meetings here, people who were dropping by, passing through, would stay at our place. At that time, there were so many children, that some of them almost got sick. That has not been the only incident that has affected my family due to overcrowding.

Our lifestyles are very different from what they used to be. Particularly for those of us who are elders, it is very different now as far as diseases go. You are more susceptible in this day and age. We used to live in crowded igloos, but we were not, it seems, as susceptible to diseases in those days. It is different now. I have been in a crowded home, in 1989 and 1990, and if there is a family of 10, even when they are related, it will cause you to break down mentally, because of constantly being in a crowded home.

We can use these as examples, while realizing that Canada is in a time of fiscal restraint, be that as it may, we have to come up with concrete solutions. We need to express our need for more housing. As I stated yesterday, this is a unique problem.

There is also a growing population, happening at one of the fastest rates in the north. Our students are going to have to have adequate shelters. We have homes that we will be eventually leaving behind. We have to ensure that we can provide adequate housing, for the people that will stay.

It is a beautiful country, but it does have harsh climates, very cold weather. It affects you, especially if you do not have proper housing. We have to make these conditions known to the federal government.

We are aware of our shortage of housing, and this will probably be the case for a while. We have to have some solutions, and we cannot just pay lip service. We have to start building something, to ensure that proper housing is provided. I think we all know how our lifestyles are, but trying to get housing is something that is very difficult to obtain. There are many people without housing in the territories. I am not sure what the statistics are, but there are still many people who should have housing, but are unable to.

We have to come up with more concrete solutions, and not just talk so much about it. We have to make sure the federal government understands how unique the problem is in the north. By working together, the Minister should consider trying to come up with solutions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Are there any further general comments? Ms. Mike.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Housing has to be commended, first of all, for being able to meet with the Minister of the federal government responsible for housing.

However, I also want to say, that I remember clearly in the early 1960s, the federal government came to our community, and began building houses. The rent was payable at $2.00 per month. This is not the first time that you have heard this in the House, as M.L.A.s. I remember clearly, we used to live in qammaq, sod houses.

When we were told that we had to move into houses, we left my father behind, and we moved into a house. Back then, my father did not want to move into a building, I am not sure what his reasons were. Now, I understand why he did not want to move to a house. Perhaps he had a better idea of what the future held, than we did.

In our community there are social problems. There are very few bedrooms in a house with many people living in it. This is practically standard across the territories. I also want to tell this, William Parry... (translation ended)

...back in the 1500s. He estimated the population of Cumberland Sound was about 1000. Between the 1500s up to 1950s, the population had dropped down to 500. It has taken from the whaling times, with the diseases that were brought in that the Inuit had no immunity from, for the population of Pangnirtung to come back up to what is just about 1000, a little over 1000 now.

We keep talking about our high rates of birth in the north. We also forget the fact that there were factors for the population dropping among aboriginals due to the diseases that they had no immunity to. As a result of that, the federal government had the obligation, and acted on providing housing to eliminate some diseases that they figured were from overcrowding, or lack of housing, which were qammaqs.

To me, to hear that there is a cutback for the N.W.T. is not acceptable. I feel that the federal government has a responsibility and an obligation to continue to provide housing for the aboriginals. For those very same reasons, Mr. Chairman, I just said that the Inuit themselves never initiated, or ever asked for housing, and these are the arguments that Mr. Minister is going to have to use, if he does go back and meet with the federal Minister.

We can only do so much with the amount of budget that we have for the housing within the N.W.T. We also cannot be treated like one of the provinces in Canada because we do not have provincial status and if we are going to get treated just like any other province in Canada, then I think it is about time the federal government should start thinking of transferring us other responsibilities to us like minerals, mines and resources, fisheries, and other things that we do not have right now.

This way they can substantiate their arguments, and their reason, for treating us just like any other province. I would like to commend the Minister for the efforts he has made to get the number of houses that we had, before the cutbacks were done. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, one of the main concerns I have with regard to the issue of housing, is that we still do have two standards, one of which is for aboriginal housing, and the other is for the public service, which are provided with housing subsidies.

We spend over $17 million a year, Mr. Chairman, on housing subsidies. I do not know how involved the Minister is with regard to negotiating the C.A.P., and trying to maintain the level we have now with regard to housing, but if you allow the civil service, or the bureaucrats to also negotiate, I wonder how serious they would be?

You have bureaucrats meeting with bureaucrats addressing a housing situation, in which they really have no problem with, themselves. They have subsidies, and they are on salaries so I have much difficulty if the breakdown is as a result of not enough effort being done on the part of the bureaucracy, then the Members should know about that.

The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that before the housing transfer occurred in the Northwest Territories, the responsibility for housing was with the Department of Indian Affairs, for Indian and Inuit housing. After the transfer happened, it was a housing program for everybody, and a lot of people that are even non-residents up here, have benefitted from those programs.

I think we should really also be directing our questions, not only to C.M.H.C., but also to the Department of Indian Affairs, with regard to their obligations to Indian and Inuit people. Because the money that goes to those communities, now goes to C.M.H.C. The other problem is that if we cannot find a solution, then the Minister should also seriously think about having the program transferred back to Indian Affairs, so that under that regime, perhaps we might be able to get ministerial guarantees to build non-profit housing, as it is called in the south.

The Minister would then guarantee C.M.H.C. that, in the event of a default on non-profit housing, then the department would cover that cost. Mr. Chairman, the Minister asked for some suggestions on how they might be able to address it, and I think that these are some of the suggestions that I have. I do not have any other, except to say that we do have a large, housing subsidy for civil servants which is about $17 million, but there are a lot of other benefits that we spend on civil servants.

I think we should really look at where the dollars are going with regard to that and, whether or not we might be able to make changes to the benefits. I know that there is a collective agreement on that, but I think we should really seriously look at whether or not, at this point in time, we are affecting the people. Does the service directly affect the communities and the people, the aboriginal people in particular? We should seriously consider ways in which we might be able to look at the existing budget, and whether or not we might be able to make some compromises. In my opinion, I feel that communities are the ones that are being short changed, and as much as I hate to say it, perhaps there is concern by the bureaucracy about it, but as long as they are the ones who have all the luxury as an employee of the government, I think we missed having to deliver programs to the communities, and I think the sacrifice should go both ways. I mean right now, the penalties are on the communities, the programs are suffering, but nothing else, the persons who are delivering those programs are not suffering as a result of that. I would ask the Executive, not only the Minister himself, but the whole Executive, to look at that, too. We have a situation where we are $20 million dollars short, and the Minister did say that he cannot find it in the existing budget. I think one of the big things that happened during the constitutional process, was that we took a leap of faith, as it was called, and I think this is one in which that is not the best thing to do, but I think that might be the one solution. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have been in contact with the honourable Minister of Indian Affairs. Earlier on in this, after we had found out about the reductions from the federal government, we did talk to him in Yellowknife, person to person, and we followed up with letters. For the Members information, I believe that the Minister was somewhat supportive. How supportive he was in Ottawa, I do not know. I think that is the avenue that has continued to be explored

through Indian Affairs. What is their responsibility, if they have any dollars to commit to help us out in this time of need? I assure the Member that I will do that. I am not too sure about a ministerial guarantee of non-profit housing; I am not sure about what the Member is referring to, but I will follow it up. If it is that the Co-op Housing Program, that is another thing that was affected in the cuts. There is no longer a Co-op Housing Program. That program was cut completely. That is the program they used in Fort Smith. Maybe I can follow that up. As far as housing subsidies and other benefits employees of this government receive, firehalls, arenas, water and sewer, all kinds of things that we make decisions on this House to spend money on, I think we have to revamp this, because this is the direction that I have always got, and this is my fifth year. The number one priority of this government is housing, and I have always taken that just for the way it is said, "it is the number one priority of this government, and we have to do whatever possible." We have a chronic housing shortage in the Northwest Territories, and we have to do whatever possible to address it. I would like to assure the Member that the civil servants that I have been involved with, the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation have assisted us, represented the Northwest Territories through me, assisted me with my briefing notes, and they are very sincere in helping solve this problem. They have put in many, many hours of work to solve this problem, so when they deal with C.M.H.C officials, and other jurisdictions, their officials, they are quite sincere, and they put a lot of work into it. So, I would not agree that is has not got the right exposure, because bureaucrat is negotiating with bureaucrat. That is not the way it is. Our people are very committed to trying to get our funding re-instated, they have been very supportive, done a very good job, and they should be commended.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, the only point I was trying to make was regarding the public service, as opposed to the programs that are delivered, is that it is a two way street with regard to sacrifices. Now, it is unfair for only the communities to be the ones to bear the brunt of this deficit. I think it is up to the public service to also do their part, this is all I am suggesting.

Thank you. Further general comments? I have Mr. Koe on my list.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. In the statements made yesterday, impact on housing, the Minister mentioned that the federal Treasury Board made the decision. He also mentioned that he had been working, and as my colleague put it, you had a leap of faith put into several federal Ministers that they will consider the arguments you made, and approve funds. However, that did not work, and my knowledge of the federal Treasury Board is that it is made up of federal Ministers, and I think it is chaired by the Minister of Finance, so something is not getting through at that level. I think more effort needs to be made, to lobby not only one or two, but a whole range of different Ministers. There is also a huge ripple effect of this, and it is going to impact this territory. This ripple effect is on our capital budget, and our O & M budget, because not only is the housing affected, but any plans for new roads, new lots, all municipal services, the revenue, proposed taxes, construction of new houses, and, of course, the huge impact on local labour, local services, and local contractors is also effected. I think it has been raised several times, but I will raise it again, there is a need now for this government to identify what the cost impacts are, what the cost impacts are today, what are they going to be tomorrow, and next year? We are going through an O & M budget now, and the proposal is that it is paving the way for next year's O & M budget. In several months, we are going to be dealing with the new capital budget, and if nothing is done quickly, it is going to have severe impacts. The effect is not only on single dwelling family sized units, but many of the multiple type buildings that have been going up across the north for single parent families, seniors' housing, and single person units. All of these are going to be affected. I have a couple of suggestions, that I think the Minister, and the government, are looking for on how to deal with this. We just went through an exercise with all the aboriginal leaders, and the constitutional process, here in the territories, and Canada wide, and they combined forces and efforts to deal with that issue.

I think, immediately, we should be getting these same leaders together, and put an organized lobbying effort on all federal Ministers. That should be done very quickly.

Another suggestion, in terms of how we are going to spend the money, how are we going to get maximum value for the dollar, or get the best bang for the buck, is several of the aboriginal organizations do have some investment money, through their claims, and I think that some deals can be made. We can at least think about it, talk to these people. Maybe there is something, from an economic point of view, since we are looking for new investments. The native organizations, and business people, are looking for investment opportunities, and I think there is a big opportunity here to explore, in detail, and vigour, this avenue. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have thought of different ways that we could appeal to the Cabinet. I am sure that you have taken notes on many of the different ideas that the Members have stated. Some of them are good ideas.

I know that any stories that we give you about the housing situation anywhere in the Northwest Territories, you are aware of those problems. Now to try and convince the Cabinet, as a whole, would be difficult. In the report that you gave to the Assembly, you indicated that you had convinced the Minister, Honourable Elmer MacKay, that there is a unique situation in the Northwest Territories.

To be able to talk to these people individually, you probably would be able to convince them, but to do it collectively, is something that I do not know if you can do.

When you have a Treasury Board that comes out and says, no, and this is the indication that you gave me earlier, directly to a request made by a Minister, I do not see how you could convince them to vote otherwise.

Certainly when we, as Members, try to convince the Cabinet, we have difficulty, and they say, no. It becomes difficult. As a last resort appeal to all the people in Canada, to southern Canada, by working with the southern media. Certainly when you look at the news today, you will hear that the federal government is dealing with the Constitution, and is giving lots to the aboriginal people. They are coming to agreements with a lot of aboriginal people across Canada.

On the other hand, something that is not being said at all in the media, is that we are also being cut in a lot of different places. As far as social programs are concerned, such as family allowance, we are just hearing on the news that family allowance will be reduced for those people who have higher incomes, but it will also be removed completely from families who are on social assistance. It will make it even harder in the Northwest Territories, because so many of our people are on social assistance.

Any time that the media, in southern Canada, takes a look at the north, they usually portray a romantic, nostalgic, type of destination, such as what we saw from Iqaluit around Christmas time, on Midday News.

We are striving to help those people, but once you remove them, there will be others who will be moving into those shacks.

I do not know how else to appeal to the federal government, other than to do a mass media appeal to Canadians. I think that might be one of the ways that we could lobby the federal government. That might be something that you could consider, as a last resort.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments? Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am concerned about some of the comments that the Minister has made in respect to funding, or alternatives. Looking at the capital budget, and seeing where he can find the money.

As we have stated collectively, this is going to be a concern for all Members. We have to try to convince the federal government, to ensure that they adhere to some of their responsibilities.

I do not like hearing comments from the Minister that we may have to revise things in the capital budget, such as, whether firehalls, arenas, or any type of municipal buildings are needed. I will tell the Minister unequivocally, as a Member, if you have to look for $22 million, it is not going to be by revising capital projects, such as firehalls, which are an essential need. Particularly, when there are many people in the north that do not get a $450.00 a month housing allowance. What you should look at, is the cost of the housing allowance to civil servants, which cost this government $27 million a year, that is where you can find your shortfall to address your housing needs, not infrastructures that are essential to the communities. Thank you.