Thank you. Again, I just want to remind my honourable colleagues that, while it is not the intention of the Chair to interfere in general comments, that those particular questions, the questions that have been raised, are under a specific matter in the department, namely schools and curriculum, and language development curriculum. It is not my intention to intervene, but I do ask the honourable Members at least to be aware of that, and that the rules generally say that no Member should speak more than ten minutes on general issues.

So, I just wanted to remind Members. It is not my intention at this particular juncture to intervene, but I just wanted to remind Members that the rules are there for the purposes of all Members. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the specific question regarding the Dogrib languages being taught, yes, under pilot as I mentioned, they started this month in the kindergarten to grade six in Rae-Edzo. That is one pilot project that we are doing now, and if that is successful, if the divisional board in that area, the Sahtu area, or the Dogrib area are happy with it, then it will be in full implementation next year.

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, during the last general comments, I spoke about two variant cultures, and I was using some examples. In Saskatchewan, they do have separate schools for people of different religious beliefs, the Hutterites, for example, have their own kind of school that is not influenced by the outside world. In Quebec, for example, you do have English and French schools, and in Ontario, they have what they call "survival schools" that have been implemented by enlarged cities, where there are a large number of aboriginal people, and the native organizations have tried to run their own schools.

One thing that the Minister indicated, Mr. Chairman, with regard to his opening remarks, is that he said a plan would be developed for the delivery of educational services to people holding rights under Section 23, under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I would like the Minister to explain what exactly this means? Can I get clarification on that? I am not sure, Mr. Chairman, but in 1984, we tried to introduce the Human Rights Code, but because of the aboriginal collective rights of people, the government did not proceed.

As for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it does talk about individual rights as opposed to collective rights, and I am just wondering if you can clarify what you meant by that in your opening statement?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This Section 23 deals with the French language rights, and for more detail, I would like to have Mr. Gerein fill you in. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gerein.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My answer is quite short. It is to deal with French first language schooling. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The only other question that I have is with regard to the direction that the nation is going in. One of it is that eventually, and I would hope that definitely, the Canadian Constitution is ratified then it is going to be a whole new development with regard to the inherent right to aboriginal self-government. In the Minister's opening address, he does not mention anything about that, except for that devolution that is going to take place and the communities are going to be taking on those roles.

When he refers to the communities taking on those roles, are we talking that the communities will receive funding and resources to run their programs? Communities that are interested in running programs will receive ongoing training and support? Smaller communities that are interested in running their own programs may require additional training and support and the flexibilities there? When you refer to communities, you are referring to the communities at large, or are you referring specifically to local educational authorities, or divisional boards of education?

Thank you. Mr. Minister

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Although my answer was Section 23 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it deals with the French language rights. However, under the present N.W.T. Education Act, aboriginal languages curriculum development can be initiated, and also can be taught in the schools. We are now compiling, getting information, and putting together a school strategy that will eventually, as I stated, be incorporated into the Education Act Amendment, which we are proposing, to strengthen the cultural programs in the school system.

This will happen as soon as the numbers warrant, especially for aboriginal people requesting cultural programs, and if there are no big or small community difference, where there is a school attended by a majority of aboriginal people.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Gargan.

So, for clarification then, from the statements made with regard to the future of future governments, when you are referring to communities, in this case, you are referring to the local education authorities, the school boards, divisional boards, or the school itself, as opposed to the community at large?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I may differ from previous Ministers, I do not think so though. When we are discussing education, especially in the area of aboriginal languages development, usage of it in the schools, we are not only talking to the divisional boards or C.E.C.s, and community education councils, we are also talking to Dene bands, the hamlet councils, and the community requirements. What are the wishes of the whole population in general? We are not restricting any organization that we will be dealing with. We are dealing with anyone. In fact, a week and a half ago, when I was in Inuvik, I had a very good meeting with the Gwich'in Tribal Council, discussing what would be the most appropriate way of developing a curriculum and delivering these aboriginal language programs in Fort McPherson, Arctic Red River, Inuvik and Aklavik. These are not narrow approaches when we are dealing with these aboriginal language developments.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan, general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the overview of the objectives of the government, the government did say that they would participate in the National School Achievement Indicators Program.

I would like to ask the Minister, what has been happening in that area? Have we got a program in place now that could be utilized by the schools to determine grade levels? What are the initiatives taken by this government, as compared to other provinces or territories?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

As I said, Mr. Chairman, the Department of Education is a full participant in this program.

We are not saying that everyone will be judged on this basis, if a student is able, or not able, or if a teacher is able, or not able. What we are saying is that there is a concern of the citizens of the N.W.T. in general, including the Members of this House, of whether we are delivering high standards of education in the communities. There has been some complaints directed to the department that some of the high school extension, or grade nine, when they go to the larger centres, like Yellowknife or Iqaluit, they cannot compete with students of the same grade.

This indicator will tell us where we are failing as a department, as educators, as opposed to the students themselves, or the teachers themselves.

What are the guidelines, requirements, to have the same level of educational quality or standard taught in every one of the schools across the territories? This is what we are trying to find out, or measure. This is not judgement on the students, rather, it is a judgement on the department and the divisional boards, so that no student suffers just because he is in a small community. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

That is the difficulty I have, Mr. Chairman, in regard to this judgement of being able or not being able, by the students, as well as by the teachers. There is a broad flexibility with regard to how a student is being determined to advance or not advance. To question the ability of the teachers to deliver those programs, so that students do advance.

That is my difficulty. I have seen it now, and it is different from what I have seen when I went to school. It is very open and it is questionable, and it is the question that I am having problems with. Mr. Chairman, we do not really have anything to determine whether or not, if you have a common test for all students, then they know what their level is within that classroom environment. I have much difficulty with that. I have been trying to address it now for the last few years. I do not think I am getting anywhere with it. I would like to know whether or not, if you are not using judgement calls to determine if a student should advance or not, or whether a teacher is capable or not, then what the hell are you using? Excuse my language.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.