Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, just recently, since the implementation of the Affirmative Action Program, we have seen trends in the existing public services and the aboriginal percentage. It must have been just recently that aboriginal employees, or northerners, have benefitted from working with this government. We have a situation, we have to say that we need to develop a benefits package, or employment package, that reflects the situation of the north now.

I realize that Ministers, when they first got in, took a reduction in pay of $5,000, and Members are entitled to one vacation travel a year. Civil servants have two, people are still entitled to receive removal costs when they get hired up here, and if they decide to quit, their removal costs are covered too. Those are all situations which do not really reflect the north. We should be able to say that if there is a commitment on the part of the public service, one vacation should be good enough, like everybody else is receiving. We also have a situation, where classroom assistants are not given vacation pay, but they are given something equivalent to the amount of gas they use, to go out on the land. Again, that is a different arrangement all together.

There are bits and pieces of differences between the Union of Northern Workers, and the public service, and the N.W.T. Teachers' Association. You have to combine all of those, and look at them to see what would be the most equitable, what would we as aboriginal people, as northerners, say is a good package for the people that are working up here. No more, no less than anybody else.

Mr. Chairman, during the time that the Minister indicated that he was going to pass legislation with regard to employment, legislate the people back to work, or to legislate their wages. I received a lot of letters from my constituency, outside my constituency, and a lot of them are not people from up here, that really do have concerns. I mean, the members in my constituency are the ones that should be fighting and complaining, but they are not saying too much with regard to what they are getting, or what they have. I would think that, if we were to develop a package that properly reflects the north, I do not think anybody would be opposed to anything being developed to that effect.

Right now, we are still feeding the bureaucracy, regardless if it is 1.8 percent for the second year increase, the fact still remains that, whatever percentage increase you get, it means a reduction on the other hand for programs being delivered. You are going to see the deficit, not come to zero, but it will increase to feed the bureaucracy. My concern is that the communities are doing their part in making sacrifices, the sacrifice that they are making is, this is how much we have got, this is what you get, live within that means. We are not saying the same thing to the bureaucracy, or the civil servants. There is still a demand for them to have a salary increase. They are not saying that they want to give up this, because maybe it does not really reflect the times. Maybe I am not listening to the radio, but I am listening to something. I certainly am not hearing anything with regard to the people that are responsible to provide those services.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, would you like to respond?

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to take a different tack here, maybe different from my colleague, Mr. Gargan. I can agree, Mr. Chairman, on a number of the issues that he has raised, and he has made it quite clear about the need to develop a northern benefits package that reflects northern conditions, and I support that.

I support the comments that have been made here, in this House, about improving and increasing the number of aboriginal people in the public service. Not only in terms of people being recruited in the lower levels of our bureaucracy, but in the higher, middle management, upper management of our public service. I want to make one point, and it is this, that on the matter of senior positions, is the matter of the political leaders to decide that aboriginal people should take on responsibilities in deputy minister positions. If they do not feel comfortable with aboriginal people, and are not prepared to nominate those people, then the political leadership have to be accountable for that. That is really not a matter that you are generally responsible for. You are, in fact, responsible for the middle management, and I note in your remarks that you have made comments, that we still do have a significant educational problem that exists. I am hoping that as we get on in dealing with the educational system, that we can provide for properly educated citizens, young people, or even older people. Education programs that will allow them to take on the responsibility as manager.

I wanted to say this, that at many times we have a tendency to criticize our public servants, yet, we sometimes forget that there are a lot of public servants in the Northwest Territories, that are first aboriginal people, second that are long term northern people, that have been born and raised here, and thirdly, have made a commitment to live in the Northwest Territories. We sometimes forget that, and maybe we should be complimenting them on some of the work that they do for us, that we are proud of. We sometimes ignore that. We do it, and I do it, at times. I am going to say to you, let us compliment these people once in a while. We talk about the morale of people not being strong, we talk about the morale of people because they are uncertain, in many cases, of the political direction that they are receiving. One minute they are being requested to help them in the communities, people are happy with that, and the next minute they are being criticized for things that they maybe did not do perfectly, but they were trying to do something that you requested them to do.

I think we have to be consistent about what it is that we tell our public servants. It is interesting to note that today, for instance, we raised a good deal of praise on our interpreter/translators, but all of them are public servants, with the exception of our French translators, who are on contract. If we are proud of them, I think we should say that. We cannot continue to be critical of our public service.

The other point that I wanted to make, is that we raise concern about this point about unions getting too much money. In some cases, I can agree that they are making more money, but you have to weigh that against your competition. You have to weigh it against the people that are recruiting, not only in Canada, but around the world. It is interesting why we say we want a lot of nurses, medical professionals in the Northwest Territories. If you look at the documentation before us, and, in fact, in some of the documents across the country, that are recruiting for nurses, I made this point before, and it is this, that they are offering more benefits for a nurse to work in Texas than they do right now in the Northwest Territories. There is on average, a higher wage in Alberta for nurses, than there is in the Northwest Territories. That is what we are competing with. Those are the professionals.

If we are going to get to a point where we can recruit our aboriginal people, then let us get on with it, in terms of trying to develop the programs, and support the programs, not only talk about it, but support the programs in this Assembly. Sometimes we do not do that. We should also make a point, Mr. Chairman, it was a point that was made again, by Mr. Gargan, and it is that there were a lot of letters that were sent, as a result of remarks made by Mr. Kakfwi, maybe they were made in the wrong context, but it was remarks relating to the matter of legislation. I think they were unfortunate, in terms of when they were said, and the way the response was made.

I want to say to you that the people in my constituency, the majority of them, were not from outside my region. The majority of the people that talked to me are in the public service, and in the Mackenzie Delta area, in fact, from those communities. With the exception of some teachers, and some of the nurses.

I had a chance to meet with some of the people who were representing the union in my communities, and they were from Fort McPherson, or Aklavik, they were not from outside. So, in many ways, they were expressing a concern to me. I had to raise that point, in fact I spoke to Mr. Kakfwi on a number of occasions about it, and criticized him even in this House when he was making mention of that. That is history now, and we can go on with the new agreement, as it has been signed.

I have a lot of other comments to make, but I just wanted to put those words on record. Sometimes we have a tendency, I think, of being too critical, not moving back once in a while, and directing a few pleasant remarks to the staff who do a lot of hard work for us. That is all I wanted to say. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Minister, would you like to comment on what has been said?

Thank you. Can I have order, please? I believe I have Mr. Ernie Bernhardt. Mr. Bernhardt.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to talk about affirmative action, Mr. Minister. Hidden away from headquarters in small regions of the N.W.T., is a practice of hiring northern aboriginal people to fill positions. I feel that this practice is, who you know in the bureaucracy, and who can get you the job.

Even to this day, this practice still continues. I will give you an example, Mr. Minister, if I may. Twelve ladies applied for a part-time position as a secretary. They were all graduates and yet, the guy that did the hiring, Mr. Minister, hired his own relation. There were twelve other young girls, some are single parents, yet they were not given an opportunity to advance their skills, or to prove their skills, to the people that they serve in their area office.

This has continued for years and years. For me, that is not affirmative action. Affirmative action, if I understand it correctly, is for aboriginal people, but I do not want it handed to us, we have to earn it. Slowly, I think, we are getting trained people, but give us an opportunity.

Another question I would like to ask you, Mr. Minister, of the 35.2 percent aboriginal people in the government work force, how many of these in senior management positions, or middle management positions?

I just want to see, especially in my region, people of aboriginal descent given fair and proper treatment. From what I have had people tell me, there is too much nepotism going around in my region, and I would like to put a stop to it. It is not fair, the people are hurting, and it seems the non-natives are getting all of the jobs.

It is not fair to our people. We would like to progress, like everyone else, but if we are not given a chance, how can we? I would like to see headquarters, once in a while, your staff, Mr. Kakfwi, come to our region. Send your staff up, and see how your department is working at the community level, to ensure that we have fair practice by the Department of Personnel.

I do not mean fly in one day, and fly out the next, but go around to the people who are qualified, and cannot seem to find jobs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Bernhardt. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. We are doing the Department of Personnel 1992-93 main estimates. Any more general comments? Mr. Gargan, Member for Deh Cho.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, maybe for the benefit of the communities, right now if we had one dollar for the whole Northwest Territories, 60 percent of it would be to support this government, the rest goes towards programs for the communities, such as education, social services, health.

We have run into a situation, Mr. Chairman, and I do not know who to blame, but I could point fingers. We ran into a deficit last year, and the result of the deficit was because expenditures were done just before an election, and as a result of the election. The point is, Mr. Chairman, in the Public Accounts Committee, one of the things that was mentioned was, that the public service does not have anything with regard to when they should stop expenditures. Even in their computers, computers are not designed to beep if you go beyond your expenditure.

There is not the control by a Comptroller General that enforces the Financial Administration Act. So, those are not things that you can blame on the aboriginal communities. I could also say a lot of nice things about the public service, but the point is we are not in the situation we are in because of aboriginal people. Someone has to take the blame, and that is why I say it is good to give praise when it is due, but my problem is that we would not be in the type of situation we are in, if people were doing their jobs, and that has been addressed time, and time, again even by the Auditor General.

The government is not doing anything to address the issue. Even at the last public council meeting, the same recommendations are still coming up. We do not have a system in place which would alert the finance people that they are over extending, so we are in a situation now, we are in deficit.

The other thing, too, is that if we are going to be saying that pay equity is good, and that, because of the court challenges under the Human Rights Act, we have to make some kind of adjustment for pay equity, the same thing should apply to benefits equity, too.

Whether you are with the Union of Northern Workers, the public servants, or the N.W.T.T.A., I think, if we are going to apply things evenly and fairly, then do it. I have problems with people in my constituency that are given different benefits than people that are working here in Yellowknife, and I use the example of vacation travel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Mr. Minister, would you like to comment on the comments made by Mr. Gargan. You have the floor, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Gargan.

Well, I would have to say that it is about time they started. The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is the department planning at all on working on developing a northern benefits package? Has there been any movement in that direction?

The other thing, Mr. Chairman, we do have things that are based on the cost of living here in Yellowknife, including fuel and power subsidies. I am just wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether, or not, transportation is supplied on that same basis.

Do all government employees have vacation travel based on government rates? In other words, you take the airfare from here to Edmonton, and that is what you get, whether you are living in Grise Fiord, or in Fort Smith.

Thank you. Honourable Minister.

Mahsi. Mr. Gargan.

I do not know if it is reflected in this, but with regard to pay equity, everybody being sort of even based on the job they are doing, how much is it going to cost this government, to do that? There must be a calculated amount, if we carry on with this pay equity regime. Are the reasons for the delay because we do not have that money to cover that, to compensate for that pay equity. I am sure women are anxious to see, if they are doing the same thing as a man does, then they should be paid that amount. What seems to be the

problem here? Do you have a figure on how much it is going to cost? I presume the Department of Personnel has done its homework on that, and that we have numbers and everything, and this is how much it is going to cost the government to do it. Is the delay, because we cannot cover it at this point in time?

Thank you, kindly. Mr. Minister.