Agreed.

Thank you. Directorate, total O and M of $4.267 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you. Page 06-11, job evaluation, total O and M of $601,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you. Staffing, total O and M $2.757 million. Agreed? Mr. Nerysoo, then Mr. Gargan. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make one particular comment here. I may ask the Minister a question. If Members will recall, when we first began the affirmative action policy, its primary focus was on aboriginal people, when we first established it. I think with a certain amount of rationale, the arguments were made to broaden it to include women and disabled, and in fact, somehow, we dealt with the matter of extending it to long term residents, and the idea of 20 years was brought in.

I cannot, in anyway, say that it may have not been a good idea, but I think that one of the problems with the complete opening of the affirmative action policy, is that you lose what might be the groups that you wanted to increase in the public service. That had to do with women, in terms of management, disabled, and aboriginal people just getting into the public service. For me, opening it up as broad as they did, has really lost the whole idea, or the value of the affirmative action policy. Maybe we cannot necessarily go back and change it, but I would ask the Minister if he could do an assessment of the advantages of having broadened it to the extent that we did. I have no problem with the idea of providing an affirmative action policy to those that have been born and raised here, but it concerns me that we are providing an advantage to people that, within the last 20 years, have just even come to this country. For me, it is not even a value to Canadians. It is so broad now, we have lost the value of it, its original intent.

I want to ask the Minister if he might be able to review the situation, and maybe assess whether, or not, there has been gains or values, in terms of the intent of the affirmative action policy.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will not argue the request that has been made to have the evaluation, I think that there is always a time needed to do the assessment. The only concern that I had, was the way the policy reads right now, there is no preference. I know that there is a priority for aboriginal people, I have no problem with that, and there is a suggestion that the women's issue is equal to that of a person who has come across the sea within the last 20 years.

For me, it does not make any sense. Maybe for someone who drafted that document, it makes sense. You are dealing with women who are talking about going beyond the positions of being a secretary, or at the lower parts of our public service, getting into management, and getting access to government jobs for the handicapped, making it more easily available to them. There is no advantage to a person, a non-aboriginal person, who has been born and raised in the north, compared to someone who has come over from Europe in the last twenty years.

I am not going to argue that the policy is there now. What I am saying to you is that, maybe, there has to be an assessment done if there is an intent to give advantage to people, then what is that advantage? If there is no advantage, then we should say it publicly. That, okay, anybody who has come over in the last 20 years has more rights in the north, or equal rights to those that have been born and raised here, and some who have been here for 40 years. There is no difference, that is all I am saying, and maybe, that has to be considered.

I am not going to argue about how things work, but I just wanted to make that point. Maybe there has to be a reassessment of that situation.

Thank you. Honourable Minister, would you like to respond to that comment?

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, one of the ways that the Department of Personnel used to hire people was that they used to include aboriginal organizations, or health boards of that area. I do not know about regional councils, but I am just wondering if you have that sort of participation before you hire your staff, regardless of whether the person is going to be stacking up paper, or a senior management position.

Again, it depends really on the position itself, a lot of latitude is given to the regions, to the staff, to the supervisors, to make this choice. I think we should allow, in order for us to avoid that type of question, as much as possible, in the place where the hiring is going to be done, that the people from that area, directly affected by that person, would participate in the interviews, and eventually do the hiring.

If you do not have that, then I think that is where your problem is. I think Ernie has brought up a good point. We keep talking about self-government, but what is that? We are not really exercising it up to now. I think it is time that we look at doing something in that area. In the spirit and intent of that, you should allow band councils, hamlet councils, regional councils, health boards, school boards, whatever the case may be, the opportunity to decide who will eventually be hired.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, I am not too sure who serves on the unions, and how much of a portion of that representation is actually reflects aboriginal concerns. With regard to staffing, what business is it of the unions to have a say in what the communities should have?

I find it totally unacceptable that this government would allow the union to dictate to this government. For instance, who is going to be the person that is working out of Fort Providence out of Yellowknife, or for that matter, Cambridge Bay? I think the only point I am trying to make, Mr. Chairman, is I have been involved in many federal government interviews, as an aboriginal person, and we have made selections that were unacceptable, but we still managed to hire people to senior positions, or director positions, in which they were not appropriate for. They eventually did do the job, like the Secretary of State position, for example, the director's position, it took a lot of influence to an aboriginal person.

It depends on the collective agreement, the unions want this, and the unions want that, so we cannot really address it. There are things that I believe are in the interest of the unions, but hiring people for communities, or establishing a position on the hiring practices for the communities, I do not think that is one that they should be playing.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. We are on the staffing. Total O and M, Mr. Gargan.

Just one final question. Do you have a policy in place, now, with regard to the hiring, in some of the regions or communities, and whether, or not, in this policy, you have the inclusion for participation of the communities that are affected either locally, regionally, by district, centrally, or north?

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Mr. Minister.