Thank you, Mr. Minister. Are there any general comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the capital plan gave us a couple of options. One of them was to address the lack of programming space and bed space in the present facilities. They suggest that, in Option A, we should just build larger facilities, like the Yellowknife Correctional Centre, to meet the needs. Option B, which is the one that we have all agreed to follow, is to maintain the present system as it is, but encourage and support the community and the regional institutions that are proposed and wilderness camps for adult and young offenders to meet our needs. That is the proposal we are following. We have indicated to communities that we are interested in talking business about proposals, on how they wish to take responsibility for their own people, how we might help them do that, both for adult and young offenders. We have hired, and split among all the regions, community justice specialists who are prepared to help groups, communities and individuals move to meet us in that direction. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Chairman, there isn't any disagreement about the concerns that the Member raises, as to the safety of the public, the welfare of these young offenders, the concern from the public for the well-being of the staff and the management in these facilities. There will be questions about the structure and the way that these facilities are built and as I have said, there is a fluctuation in the number of young offenders.

Sometimes, the majority of them are secure custody offenders, other times, the majority of them are open custody offenders. We only have a few facilities available to us at this time. Until we are able to get the kind of flexibility we need, by seeing more community/regional-based facilities coming up to meet our needs, the facilities like River Ridge, in Hay River, will have to meet our needs. They meet our needs by the triple designation that we've given them. We've checked with the staff continuously, the managers of these facilities, to ensure that they feel competent enough to run the facilities the way that we've asked them to, as triple designated facilities. We've given them assurance that their concerns, if any, will be addressed as soon as possible, that they should feel free to make recommendations to us in the event they feel triple designation is not possible or is not the way to go. At this time, there is no disagreement with it. The staff and the management feel confident that triple designation is a manageable thing that adequately meets the needs of everyone involved.

It's recognized that facilities like the River Ridge facility, were designed with secure custody in mind. I'm sure in the future, when there are other facilities built in other regions, in Fort Smith, that that facility will revert to what it was originally intended. But, at this time, the needs of this government are that we need flexibility to meet the needs we have. That's where we are.

We've been supporting the management and the staff of these facilities by providing training, by checking regularly with them about the way in which they operate the facilities, about the training needs they identify and ask to be provided to staff. They recognize themselves, that all the training in the world can not prepare you for all incidents.

The nature of facilities, such as correctional facilities, whether they are adult or youth, lends itself to the fact that there will be people who try to run away, walk away, break out, assault people in the process, who will commit serious offences in the process. That's the nature of this business.

I read this morning that, annually, there are at least 11 broken necks in Canada from young people hurting themselves playing hockey. I don't know how that relates to violent incidents in young offenders facilities. We are bound by legislation that says young offenders should be given the least amount of restriction possible. The only way to give the public total assurance is to make these types of facilities disappear, or if they have to stay there, to lock everybody up. That's not the way we do business in this field today. We train staff, we have people that manage these facilities, keeping in mind the needs of the young offenders, that they have special needs. They are not to be treated harshly. They are not to be treated as adult offenders. We have to recognize their youth. They are not fully mature people. Legislation provides for that.

At the same time, the staff that run these facilities are asked to keep an eye on them and be supportive of them, without having to have them handcuffed or overly restricted. I think it lends itself to the fact that sometimes people will run away. Just to keep it in perspective, many of these young offenders are just troubled youths who have committed a crime and gotten into trouble, but who are genuinely good children, good people. We can't banish them. There is probably more violence in the bars of the Northwest Territories on any given night than there is all year round in these facilities. We really have to keep it in perspective.

Mr. Chairman, we've had extensive discussions with the managers of these facilities. There have been some suggestions made by the manager of River Ridge, for instance, about renovations for this facility. I know the Member for Thebacha was demanding last year that I not come forward with any capital money to do renovations. I want to point out that one of the observations made is that the control room in that facility is not strategically located, in the view of the staff and the management.

That observation was made, keeping in mind that this a facility originally built to be a secure facility. Even with a triple designation or just a secure facility, that question has come up about that particular room. We're going to look at it and if it is the view of management that it is absolutely required, we will probably move on it.

There has been a system set up, where we regularly go through security procedures and we are working with the management to evaluate the performance of the staff and the type of training we provide them. Jeannie, you're not listening, I'm trying to give you an answer. The staff that we have in these facilities have to be able to, in our mind, do the job that is demanded of them. So, that has become a normal part of our operations.

Just last month, we did an audit of the River Ridge facility. The report is coming to me, but there was nothing considered urgent or which needed immediate attention when it was done. I will see when the written report comes to me. Because people staff these facilities and run them and human beings become unpredictable sometimes, we have to be ready all the time without turning them all into high-security camps. We see it as our job to continuously monitor and come up with ways to reduce the number of incidents. I think that's what the Member is asking about, and that is what we see.

None of us like to see these type of incidents. We don't even like to hear about young offenders who walk away from camps and from homes where they are entrusted. To have young offenders disappear and commit offences is considered serious to all of us. It particularly upsets the staff and the management of these facilities because they feel very, very responsible for them and they know this government has placed responsibility on them. They know that the communities and the parents of these offenders have also given them this responsibility. All of us feel a very high level of commitment, to looking always, at ways to reduce this. We are trying to make it a regular part of our job.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think, historically, what has been happening is all across the country, people have accepted that large facilities to house offenders -- whether they are youth offenders or adult offenders -- is not the way to keep going. And, that we have to make efforts to make sure that youth and adult offenders are held as close to home as possible, and to have programs available for them that are relevant and will help them to rehabilitate and be prepared for the day when they return to their communities and families and try to become a positive, productive part of society.

The view of everybody that is engaged in that is, how do we have to restructure our capital plan so that money we spend goes more and more toward community-based facilities. At this time, there is no need for capital money to do renovations in these facilities. I mentioned one that was brought to my attention by the management of River Ridge this morning. We've assured the manager that we are going to take a serious look at that and if we agree that it is essential to do it, then we will try to proceed. That is a capital item that has come up. I know, from time to time, we are asked by the managers to look at changing the locks. In this case, the manager at River Ridge has had that done, which is a capital item. Other than that, what we look at are the security practices of the staff. The managers assured us that everything that is required to run this facility as a secure facility within the community of Fort Smith is there. Whether or not the staff have been able to diligently follow these procedures remains to be seen. That is going to come up in the review which we are conducting right now.

We will deal with it internally because there are employees involved. I am not comfortable with discussing it in public because I am not the front line manager of this facility. I see it as a management issue. If something like that has to be done, there are other personnel issues that may come up as a result of incidents like this. At this time, while we all regret that incidents like this happen, we are relieved that nobody has been hurt.

We are feeling good. I feel confident that the managers of these facilities are doing a good job and have everything they need in place to minimize these type of incidents from happening. I spoke to them this morning and said, explicitly, that, if there are suggestions they feel they are making which are not being acted on in the way they feel comfortable with, then they should be sure to raise it with the Deputy Minister and myself, if necessary, so they feel they are not being asked to do a job that they cannot adequately do with the support and those things we have in place. The morale and feeling is good. I get a sense of teamwork. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I have raised this as an item that the manager of River Ridge raised with me this morning as something she thinks we should seriously look at. I've assured her that we will look at it seriously. It is up to the manager to have discussions with her supervisors if that is what they agree is the course to follow. It is their judgement. I am not going to inject myself into it. I am not in that business. I see myself as someone who wants to make sure

these people, who have an enormous responsibility, are given the best support possible. That is what I assured them of this morning. Suggestions like the one the Member for Thebacha is making are going to be treated very seriously and acted upon if that is what is considered to be required by the manager and the senior staff.

I should point out that I have a big concern about the public safety, as well as all of the Members. I continually point out that I have equal concern about the morale of the staff because that is what is absolutely essential, in my mind, if we are going to continuously demand a high level of diligence and performance from these people who have a very difficult job to do at the best of times. The kinds of demands that are placed on them are enormous. It is my responsibility, and the responsibility of senior management within this department, to make sure the staff and managers are able to maintain a very high morale amongst themselves so they are at peak performance all the time. That assures public safety.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with the Member. The statistics that we have show the highest level of the population of the Northwest Territories growing the fastest, is the age group between 12 and 25. Statistics across this country show that there is an increasing number of youth that are committing more and more offences and the incidence of violent crime in that age group is escalating. For instance, the number of sexual assaults has increased across this country by 20 per cent in the last five years, or something like that.

I think the managers and staff of these facilities are keeping an eye on these trends, and it is telling us something about the condition of society in the north. Our incidence of incarceration is the highest in the country. Everything about the north points to the fact that we need to do something different. The idea of giving responsibility for youth and adults back to the communities and back to their own people, is one avenue that we all agree should be pursued, so it is the way we are going to proceed.

We should recognize that the Young Offenders Act of Canada, for instance, says you can only keep them for a maximum of three years. There are adult offenders who commit violent crimes, such as homicides, and...Would you lend me your ear, please? It is discouraging, Jeannie, when you ask me a question and I try to answer and you're talking to Mr. Dent. I'm not sure who you are listening to.