This is page numbers 363 - 398 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was facilities.

Topics

Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Even though the seal ban was aimed only at stopping the harvest of harp seal pups off Newfoundland, the end result was the destruction of the entire seal fur trade in the Arctic countries. This killed the seal industry for the Inuit harvesters in the Canadian Arctic.

Some animal welfare and animal rights groups who do not understand our situation, would like to stop all fur trade. On behalf of all our trappers and hunters, in fact, of our life-style that has existed for thousands of years, it is important that European politicians and bureaucrats hear our side of the story, at least until we have markets for our furs also established in other parts of the world.

The Department of Renewable Resources has done work assisting trappers to use humane traps. A lot of money has been spent by this government in trapper research, trapper education, trap exchange and public education. All of this investment, as well as our people's life-style, will be lost if we do not protect existing markets, re-establish old ones, or find new markets.

While in Brussels, I explained to the conference why our fur industry is important to us in the north. We have few other alternatives for most of our people, and we have made good progress in changing our way of trapping. Our harvests are more humane, than the current practices that exist in other parts of the world, such as cattle feed lot operations, pig farms, egg farms and slaughter houses. Our trapping methods are more humane than those.

I explained how our people have lived in harmony with their environment for thousands of years and continue to manage their renewable resources. Our presentation explained to them about our people and our land. I believe the European politicians have a better understanding of our situation and the need to support what we are doing.

As well as attending the conference, I met with individual Members of the European Parliament, their staff, scientists, non-governmental organizations that support the fur trade and those who are against the killing of all animals. All three days in Brussels were full, from morning to evening. It was a very busy schedule. Indications are that the fur trade, including seal pelts, is making a come back around the world. It is important that we position ourselves to take full advantage of this opportunity. In my mind, we can best do this by marketing our furs, exclusive furs from the north. For example, calling it Arctic Furs, an exclusive product.

For too long, our furs have not been marketed to their best advantage. We have to establish ourselves as producers of a unique, high quality product, such as the Russians did long ago with their sable, which is a cousin of our martin.

Animal rights activists are responding to the upturn in the fur trade, by redoubling their efforts to have the proposed 1995 humane trapping legislation made so demanding that we will kill the fur trade.

On January 1, 1995, the European council regulations to ban the import of furs caught in leg hold traps, will come into effect. While other jurisdictions in Canada might have some difficulty, we in the Northwest Territories, can meet the target date because of the efforts of the trappers and the Department of Renewable Resources.

Animal rights groups are now lobbying European Parliaments to change the rules so that every fur producing country has to fully ban leg hold traps. Before anyone can sell wild fur, they want to review and revise international standards for humane traps, to make them even more stringent than they are now, and to put into place more regulations and tests so that it will be impossible to trap wild fur. They are desperate and will do anything they possibly can to influence their politicians.

While we do have allies in Brussels, such as the International Fur Trade Federation and the European Bureau on Conservation Development, unless we personally influence the Members of the European Parliament, I'm convinced that they will be swayed by well organized, well-funded, animal welfare and animal rights groups.

We are at a critical time, Mr. Speaker. The fur trade is making a come back. The European trapping regulations are coming into effect in one year, and in two months, the International Standards Organization or ISO, meets to finalize trap standards. How those standards are defined is critical. If they are too rigid, we will not be able to meet them, and our European markets for wild fur will be gone.

We, as elected MLAs and as aboriginal northerners, have to make at least one more trip to Brussels and to Strasbourg, to influence our European Parliament counterparts. If not, I'm afraid that between now and the ISO meeting in February, animal rights groups will get their way and win.

While supporting organizations and officials can have some influence, it is only as elected representatives that we can talk on an equal basis with the European elected representatives. Those are the ones who will vote on the trap standards and regulations next year.

Going to Europe may seem, to some of you, a bit of a holiday, but it is not. It is a necessity, on behalf of our constituents who are trappers and hunters. The message is clear, our trapping industry is now on the line. Next, it will be our forest industry, which we are just developing.

In some instances, Europeans would like to make us into a living museum of what they have lost. We can not let that happen, for the sake of our lifestyle and our future generations. All the Europeans have been our main fur market for the past 500 years, this may be changing. Yet, we can not alienate or ignore them yet. For at least a few more years, we have to continue to work with Europeans, while establishing other markets for our renewable resource products, perhaps in Asia, North America, South America, as well as in Canada. If we do not, we will close the door on the current markets and see the fur prices fall and the end of the fur industry as we have known it.

I think it is time to be alert, as our global economy unfolds.

Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but be amazed at how small our world is. As I walked down a street of apartment blocks and houses in Brussels, on my way to the European Parliament to talk about trapping in the Northwest Territories...In some ways, it is a long way from europe to a trapper's cabin. Other ways, such as technology, global markets, jets that travel at a thousand kilometres per hour, make our world very small. Landing in pollution-covered Amsterdam and Brussels, also brought home to me how much we have to lobby the rest of the western world to get their environmental problems under control.

---Applause

If they do not, we will not have anything to trap or hunt in the future. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 368

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Patterson.

The Appointment Of Municipal Advisory Committee For Iqaluit
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 368

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, tomorrow I will be returning to my constituency to attend a public meeting Monday night, called by the municipal administrator to discuss the status of the town of Iqaluit. I would like to acknowledge the support I've received from the Honourable John Todd, Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, for early appointment of an advisory council. I understand, from Mr. Todd, that the appointments could be made in time for members of the advisory committee to participate, along with myself, in Monday's public meeting.

I also want to thank Mr. Todd for agreeing that meetings of the advisory council and the municipal administrator will be held in public. Finally, I want to thank the Iqaluit Chamber of Commerce and the Iqaluit Ratepayers' Association, and their presidents, Mr. Stephen Roberts and Ms. Anne Crawford, respectively, for their work in soliciting and putting forward a list of very capable and representative citizens of Iqaluit who are willing to sit on this advisory committee at such a critical time for the community. I am confident that whoever Mr. Todd appoints, from the list of names submitted, we will have a very capable advisory committee .

Mr. Speaker, there are very many important issues for them to pursue. The first, being an accurate statement of the current financial situation of the town of Iqaluit, which is still not available today despite Mr. Beaumont having been in office for three weeks; ensuring that the financial statements are prepared by independent auditors with no previous involvement in the debenture controversy; advising on collective bargaining negotiations now under way; planning capital projects, such as a new community hall, paving and dump relocation; ensuring that the interests of ratepayers are protected, in matters such as the future of the Apex road subdivision; the handling of the dismissal of the senior administrative officer; and, finally, and most important, preparing for an early election of a new council.

Mr. Speaker, I know my constituents are anxious to put the recent regrettable events in the community behind them, and look forward to a bright future and the challenges ahead. Thank you.

---Applause

The Appointment Of Municipal Advisory Committee For Iqaluit
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Allooloo.

Member's Statement Re Unfair Application Of Business Incentive Policy
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to make a statement about what I perceive to be unfair application of the business incentive policy, by the regional office of the Housing Corporation in Iqaluit. A constituent of mine in Pond Inlet, Simon Merkosak, lost out on a contract to do the electrical work on three houses. He is of Inuit descent, and employs mostly local people in his contracting business.

Mr. Speaker, the reason he lost out on the electrical contract for the three houses in Pond Inlet was that he had to import an NWT journeyman electrician from Montreal --his brother-in-law -- to do the supervising and installation, thereby making his company ineligible for any percentage reduction in his bid under the business incentive policy. In his bid, Mr. Merkosak received no consideration whatsoever under BIP, for any of the factors other than the labour costs involved with the hiring of an electrician.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, Kheraj Enterprises of Resolute Bay received the contract to do the work because they beat out Mr. Merkosak only after the BIP was applied to their bid. Kheraj Enterprises received consideration under the BIP program because Kheraj stated in his contract documents that he would be hiring a long-term resident electrician from Yellowknife to do the work. Mr. Speaker, it turned out that the person who did the electrical work was from Newfoundland and was not a long-term northern resident.

Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned about the application of the BIP in this case. If we're going to award contracts, we must make sure that the contractor involved lives up to the commitments made in the successful bid. Mr. Speaker, I will be pursuing the matter further in question period. Thank you.

---Applause

Member's Statement Re Unfair Application Of Business Incentive Policy
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

The Speaker

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan.

Renovation Of Fort Providence Church
Item 3: Members' Statements

December 1st, 1993

Page 369

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today, I wish to speak on the Lady of Fort Providence Church. The church was in very bad condition. During the last few years, the community has been renovating it to restore the church to its original conditions. The priest advised us last week at church, that the renovations to the church would be completed the first week of December. We will be able to celebrate Christmas in our original church, for the first time in years.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, many groups took part in providing money for this project. The parish raised more than $9,000 through local fund raising and through donations from parishes in the Northwest Territories and southern Canada. The hamlet of Fort Providence donated $5,000, as part of a pledge to match community donations. The hamlet also provided the time of several of their employees, to get this important historical project up and running.

Even though I thought the government was a little slow in coming up with the money to do this project, I'm proud to say that they contributed a total of $77,000 to the renovation of the church in Fort Providence. Mr. Speaker, $57,000 of the money the Government of the Northwest Territories gave to this cause was for the NWT workers' training program. The money was used to hire a carpenter who specialized in historical renovations, to train three Fort Providence residents in carpentry.

The people who have to be thanked individually are too numerous to name. The community rallied around the project and a lot of time and material were donated by the residents of Fort Providence. When you add up all the donations of money, materials and labour, approximately $200,000 was spent on this very worthwhile effort. I'm proud to say that the residents of the community did most of the work. I'm proud of the community spirit that refused to allow the church to be torn down. This project is an excellent example of what can be done, if all levels of government and members of the community work together to complete a project of this magnitude.

I proudly invite any resident of the Northwest Territories, who wants to see this important part of our heritage, to visit us in Fort Providence. Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Renovation Of Fort Providence Church
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudlat.

Requirement For Social Worker In Sanikiluaq
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to say that, in Sanikiluaq, there has not been a social worker since June, even though social workers go to the community during social assistance days. The government

liaison officer is now responsible for three different areas and the community has gone through hard times because they don't have a social worker. They shouldn't have to be looked after by social assistance workers. Right now, the social workers go to the community just to handle that area. A lot of times, the GLO is given the responsibility to issue social assistance and to do the work of a social worker. That person might not always be there.

In addition, DPW hasn't had a building maintainer in Sanikiluaq since July. Mr. Speaker, the government liaison officer has three responsibilities and she is also holding jobs which can be full-time jobs by two different people. So, we're requesting that they should get a social worker and building maintainer, so they will remedy the problem in the community of Sanikiluaq. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Requirement For Social Worker In Sanikiluaq
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Member's Statement Re Dpw Minister's Visit To Fort Smith
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I want to publicly thank the Minister of Public Works and Services for his visit to Fort Smith, on September 7 of this year. Mr. Speaker, I invited the Minister to my constituency, to meet with all the business people in the community.

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the new academic building to be built in Fort Smith. This meeting gave Fort Smith businesses the opportunity to request that the Minister avoid a tender call on the project and, instead, allow the building to be constructed under project management or negotiated proposal. If this is successful, Mr. Speaker, it will be one of the first projects of its kind in Fort Smith in a long, long time.

Mr. Speaker, I know that Fort Smith residents and businesses, from time to time, have had a reputation of not being able to work together. However, I believe there are many issues which have been addressed by the community pulling together when there were concerns with our local banking. The residents worked together and found a solution very quickly. The tanker base is another example that comes to mind.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister has taken the time to hear the community. I now encourage the Fort Smith businesses and the Department of Public Works to prove they can work together on this project, particularly to complete it successfully, and within the budget forecasted. Mr. Speaker, this is one initiative of a negotiated contract which not only I support, but one which my constituents support.

Mr. Speaker, I commend the Minister of DPW for taking the responsibility of addressing the political concerns of attempting to find a method to ensure our jobs and our funds expended in our economy, stay within our economy. Thank you.

Member's Statement Re Dpw Minister's Visit To Fort Smith
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

The Speaker

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Whitford.

Member's Statement Re Difficulties Of The Visually Impaired
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Mr. Speaker, as some of the Members will recall, last week I had the opportunity to experience visual impairment, by wearing a pair of special glasses that would simulate low visibility, out in the main hall of our Legislative Assembly. These glasses did, indeed, limit my vision and my ability to move around freely and comfortably, even safely. The experience was scary, but fortunately for me, it was only a simulated demonstration. For over 150 people here in the Northwest Territories, the experience is real and lasting. The effects do not go away simply by removing glasses or, for that matter, even putting them on. Perhaps a slight improvement can be made by wearing special prescription glasses, but there is nothing like one's own good eyesight. My challenge lasted only a few short minutes. To the visually impaired, it is a daily challenge, perhaps for the rest of their lives.

Mr. Speaker, I believe what the Canadian National Institute for the Blind was trying to make us aware of is, that new buildings must be constructed with consideration for those whose normal activities are in some way impaired by illness or by accident. Here, we have sheet glass walls, protruding landings, doors with automatic closing devices and very light-coloured handles. Mr. Crow, a former Member, would have had a very difficult time here, even with his white cane.

Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the CNIB for giving me an opportunity to become more aware of the effects of visual impairment, and for the services they are providing to the people of the north who need their services. Mr. Speaker, there are about 150 known blind or visually impaired persons in the NWT who are using CNIB services. There are about another 200 who have not yet been contacted. The message here is, be aware and take care.

Member's Statement Re Difficulties Of The Visually Impaired
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Whitford. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Ms. Mike.

Return To Oral Question 136-12(4): Status Of Superintendent Of Personnel Position, Fort Smith
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 370

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell on November 29, 1993.

The superintendent of Personnel position in Fort Smith has been vacant since October 11, 1993.

The workload in the Fort Smith Personnel office has been greatly reduced, to the point that we may not need to retain all four positions in Fort Smith. The department is assessing our staff requirements for the Fort Smith office and will be making recommendations to me, before the end of this fiscal year.

We are fortunate in Fort Smith to have two experienced personnel officers who show potential to develop into good managers. Both of them have priority status under the affirmative action policy and are presently enrolled in a management development program at Arctic College. To supplement this program, they will each be acting as superintendent of Personnel for one-month periods, until the position is filled permanently. This combination of course work and practical managerial experience will make them good candidates for a superintendent position.

Our plan is to fill the superintendent position in the spring of 1994.

Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 370

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Mr. Speaker, I have another return to oral question asked by Mr. Patterson on November 29, 1993, on community alcohol and drug workers' conference, March, 1993, cost.

Mr. Speaker, the cost to the Department of Social Services, for the community alcohol and drug workers' conference held at the Yellowknife Inn on March 16 to 18, 1993, was $69,259. Thank you.

Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 371

The Speaker

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Before we go into question period, I'd like to give my ruling on the point of order of the Member for Thebacha.

Speaker's Ruling

Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 371

The Speaker

Yesterday, the Member for Thebacha, Ms. Jeannie Marie-Jewell, rose on a point of order, seeking clarification from the Speaker as to whether Members had the right to ask questions of a Minister which might impinge on the issue of Cabinet secrecy. As Members, including Ministers, are referring, with increasing frequency, to issues involving Cabinet documents, and this area of questioning is somewhat complex, I appreciate the desire of Members to gain a better understanding of the rules and procedures governing this area of parliamentary practice.

First, I would like to place the honourable Member's request for a ruling in context, with the debate in the House. On page 839 of unedited Hansard, the honourable Member for Iqaluit stated that he "understood that the Minister presented a submission to Cabinet for improving the wages of alcohol and drug workers." I wish to make it clear that I did not rule this question out of order. I did, however, caution Members to be careful when they are referring to matters that are not within the knowledge of all Members of this House. I stated, and I quote, "If the Member has knowledge that is the knowledge of this House about this particular event, then Mr. Patterson can pose his question." Citing documents not within the possession of the House, poses problems for the chair and for all Members. It is a long-standing parliamentary principle that, when documents are the subject of a debate, those documents should be before the House for all Members to review. I quote from Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6th edition, citation 495(2), which states, "It has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the table of the House, if it can be done without injury to the public interest."

The reason for laying documents before the House is clear -- it is to the benefit of all Members, and improves the quality of debate of this Legislature -- if all Members are in the possession of documents referred to in the House and are aware of the facts contained therein. In my brief comments, I was just reminding Members of this principle. At the time that the honourable Member for Iqaluit made his comments respecting the Cabinet submission, I had no knowledge of whether the facts and documentation cited by the Member were within the knowledge of all Members of this Legislature.

With respect to the issue of whether a Member can ask a question involving a matter of Cabinet secrecy, this Legislature is governed by our rules and procedures and by the body of law developed on parliamentary privilege. Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6th edition, citation 26(1), states, "A question of order concerns the interpretation to be put upon the rules of procedure and is a matter for the Speaker or, in a committee, for the chairman to determine." Questions pertaining to issues involving Cabinet deliberations can be asked; they are not prohibited by our rules.

Nor is Cabinet secrecy, or the breach of Cabinet secrecy, a matter which invokes a claim to the parliamentary privilege. Beauchesne's, citation 31(8), states, "There is no link between the convention of Cabinet secrecy and the law of privilege."

Cabinet secrecy has long been a political convention in Canada. The essence of effective government is the ability to fully and frankly debate political issues before developing a consensus opinion of the government. Without Cabinet secrecy, the Executive simply could not continue to govern with any degree of solidarity or effectiveness. Cabinet secrecy is only a political convention and is not a rule of this Legislature, nor does it attract the protection of the law of parliamentary privilege. I again cite Beauchesne's, citation 31(6), which states, "Cabinet solidarity is a question of personal ethics and may be debated in the House, but cannot be made the foundation for a question of privilege." Accordingly, any Member may ask a question of a Minister, eliciting information on Cabinet deliberations. These types of questions will not be ruled out of order, as they contravene no rules or privileges of our Legislature. It will be the responsibility of the Minister to whom the question is asked, as to whether they invoke Cabinet secrecy and refuse to answer the question.

For the assistance of Members, I direct their attention to Beauchesne's, citation 416(1), which states, "A Minister may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for refusing, and insistence on an answer is out of order..."

While the Member for Thebacha does not have a point of order, her request for a ruling in this area was useful to the chair and, I hope, to all Members of the House.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Lewis.

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 371

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, you are very kind. Mr. Speaker, my question is about negotiated contracts. According to Mr. Pollard's budget address, the government is spending $8 million on negotiated contracts. In his speech, he mentions, even though we go to a northern negotiated contract, contractors are still required to provide full value for money. I would like to ask the Government Leader, since this

is a major issue within the government, how are contractors required to provide full value for money? Is there some kind of value for money audit done on each negotiated contract?

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Minister Morin.

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

(Microphone turned off)...Mr. Speaker.

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

I am sorry, the question was directed to the Premier.

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to some of the questions over a period of time and, in terms of value for money, I would like to get a clarification from the honourable Member on that term. What does he mean by value for money?

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Mr. Lewis, would you care to clarify?

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts
Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

I will quote from the budget address. "Although competitive tenders are not called, the northern project contractor is still required to provide full value for money." I quote that from page three of the budget address. So I would like to ask the Premier, since this is a major policy issue for the government, how do you determine whether a contract provides full value for money? There is such a thing as a value for money audit, which is different than the normal audit that is conducted under the normal rules of audits.