Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to compliment the Minister and his deputy minister on initiatives I am aware of to devolve more authority to the regional superintendents and their staff in the regions. I have expressed my frustration openly to a previous Minister and former Cabinet colleague, that I felt decision-making was too centralized in the Minister's office and in the headquarters of this department in Yellowknife, and I am delighted to note a new approach from the Minister and his deputy. I want to say I have confidence in the regional superintendent and staff in the region and I am sure the department will be well served if regional people can be relied on to make more decisions and have more flexibility in the delivery of the department's programs. We will not always agree with their decisions, but at least they are accessible and approachable, with the greatest of respect to the capable people in headquarters, better informed about the priorities and the uniqueness of the region I represent. That is my general comment, Mr. Chairman. It does not require a reply. I wanted to note this change of direction and it is very welcomed to my constituents and myself. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, my comment is not short. One of the obvious things in this year's budget is the limit to which our dollars can go. In all cases around the world where there are limited amount of dollars, the money is directed to improve or create more employment, to create opportunities for business and also to attract, through promotions, people to spend money in the north. Even in the communities where this possibility exists, there is still some difficulty with people getting money to start a business. One of the things which the Deh Cho region and in particular, the Hay River Reserve, would like to do is to get into the banking business, not commercial banking, but the trust company business. In this way they would try to create more opportunity for aboriginal businesses to come into place. At present, most commercial banks do not take chances on businesses for aboriginal people. If they are risky then they will not touch them.

This government invests millions of dollars in to those banks and do not get any kind of return other than what the ordinary customer gets. This government could do much more to try to get a return for the dollars which are spent in the banks.

Mr. Chairman, in most communities if you do not have collateral, you cannot get a loan. The reserve has been working with Peace Trust to try to come up with some kind of a new bank initiative for the aboriginal people. They have land claims money, core funding and regional funding. There are all kinds of monies which are being targeted toward aboriginal people. Even though the banks have benefitted from it, they are not providing any kind of incentive for aboriginal people. The banks have also met with aboriginal people. As recently as two weeks ago, there were all kind of articles in the newspapers on how the banks could offer their services to the communities. Not improved services, just services. This does not tell you much with regard to what they are willing to offer. This is one area which I am concerned about, Mr. Chairman. Most of the money that comes up north ends up in Las Vegas, London or Japan. It does not stay in the north. I think it is time we look at keeping our dollars in the north. This is one way of doing it. If the banking services do not change their attitudes toward the communities, toward the aboriginal people and this government, then we should look at our alternatives for banking in the north.

One of the big things the Minister has made with regard to opportunities up here is in the mining industry, gold, diamonds or staking claims. We could turn the clock back five hundred years and people would still be coming up here and putting a stake in the ground and counting it as their own. I think we should begin looking to create opportunities in the area of exploration. We should also be looking at joint ventures. In my constituency we have been trying to enter into a joint venture with the Inuvialuit development corporation. It has not yet materialized. I do not know what has happened to this since it was discussed. However, those are areas in which I think we should try to create more opportunities.

Mr. Pollard is aware of the fishing industry in the north and some of the problems which both the fresh water fish marketing industry and the Great Slave fisheries are having in trying to create new markets. Something which is happening with regard to the fishermen on the Great Slave Lake is that many of the fish which are not required for market are dumped back into the lake. The wasted fish should be utilized for cat or dog food. I do not think we should be dumping them back into the lake. We should try somehow to create more opportunities for people to make use of the wasted fish.

Mr. Chairman, about a month ago I heard through the media about the high demand for bison meat or buffalo meat. The only people who are harvesting or have the opportunity to harvest are people through the Peace River bison ranching association. Those people have tapped into a market for which there is a demand. However, other than those people having this opportunity, they are not expanding. There is a shortfall of demand for bison meat. In Fort Providence the herd has expanded to the point where we should allow the community to start harvesting some of the bison. It can be done through commercial license. They should be given the first opportunity to start opening this up to big game hunters. The possibility exists, however, I do not know whether or not this government has explored this possibility.

One of the things I also wanted to mention is with regard to a search of revenue. With regard to a case down south on the reserves, Mr. Chairman, in order for reserves to collect revenue, they have established casinos and gambling centres as a source of revenue. I do not know if this government has looked at that opportunity. Fort Providence is an ideal place for such a facility to be put, since it is in the middle of all the major centres, including Yellowknife, Fort Rae, Fort Simpson, Fort Smith and Hay River. I do not know if it is possible, but it is something that this government should look at to create some revenue. I understand the church has gotten out of the bingo business. Wherever possible, we should try to create revenue. I hope that would be one area in which the government would also explore to create revenue.

I have one final comment. I am still not sure if we have an economic development officer in Fort Providence. The last time I was there, I do not think there was one. I know there was talk about putting a position there and they would look at designating the money required for them to put a position in Fort Providence. I do not know if we have one, but perhaps the Minister might be able to enlighten me on that.

Basically, as far as the economics in the north and in my own constituency go, I have touched on every possible avenue that could be looked at. Also, under the business incentive policy of this government, I would hope that the government would look at this. The requirement is for many non-aboriginal entrepreneurs. We may require that, but I would hope that permanent aboriginal residents are not required to register so they could have that added advantage for opportunities. By virtue of them being aboriginal people should be enough for this government to look at that possibility. There are all kinds of things that this government is doing that is good and which is creating opportunities, but I would hope that, because aboriginal people have been here longer and do not intend to make their millions and then move back south, that they would look at that as an incentive too. That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman. I ask only that the Minister respond to whether or not we do have an economic development officer in Fort Providence.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Mr. Minister, would you like to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The competition for the EDO in Fort Providence closed last Friday. The community will be involved in the selection process. We will be entering into an agreement with the community, whereby the community will give that EDO direction. We will be asking the community if that EDO, when he or she is requested to deliver Economic Development and Tourism programs, will be allowed to do that. Mostly, the direction will come from the community. That should be taken care of very quickly, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any general comments on the activity summary of Economic Development and Tourism, on page 15-10? Mr. Gargan.

One of the objectives of a department, if we look at page 15-7, to implement year two of the musk-ox and caribou harvest for domestic and export sales. Are you only restricting it to those two categories?

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

In that instance, yes, Mr. Chairman. You will notice that the next one down is with regard to the caribou test harvesting, North Slave, but we are also looking at harvesting in Rankin Inlet as well, in the Keewatin. We would be open to any other group who wants to come to us and suggest they might want to get involved with the commercial harvest. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Are there any other general comments? We will go page by page. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to make a few general comments on Economic Development and Tourism. The deputy minister is new. He just started last fall. Hopefully, he has a fresh approach to the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. In the Fort Simpson area, we have a new superintendent. Hopefully, there is another fresh look at economic development in my particular constituency. We have two new people who were involved in that area before. Hopefully, things will turn around in my constituency. In the constituency I represent, there are a number of small communities. There is nothing going on economically in any one of them. I would like to suggest to the Minister and to his new deputy minister that, if these new people could go into the communities and see what each community really wants to accomplish in terms of economic development from the community level up, this would be a good approach to take in these communities at this present time. It has been frustrating in the past, when I first got elected, that the communities were asking for a number of economic development initiatives, and nothing has happened to date, even though some of the communities have a clear idea of what they would like to accomplish. There has been frustration expressed by some of the members of the communities I represent of Wrigley, Trout Lake, Nahanni Butte and Jean Marie River, on the lack of support from department officials in my region. If improvements could be made, I would really appreciate it.

I want to continue and touch on an area that I am concerned about. It is the area of loans that were passed out. I do not know if this is true for other constituencies, but in my particular area, this was brought to my attention. Over the years and recently, it was stressed that some fairly large companies are in real financial trouble and on the verge of bankruptcy. They attribute this to the way loans have been handled within the department, where loans are given out to different companies with no follow-up. It seems as if there was no infrastructure in place to take care of them after the loans were given out. There are many inconsistencies in this area. It brings a false sense of security and creates an artificial economy. I think we are having some trouble with some of the companies because of that. It is not only that, the companies themselves have to take some responsibility for the positions they are in. If Economic Development and Tourism gives money out to companies they should have a closer look at them as they go through the years and not wait until they are far behind in their payments before any action is taken.

I would like to suggest that Economic Development and Tourism try to improve people's skills through some sort of an education plan. One specific area that needs developing is improvement in the marketing skills of different people in my region so they can continue on in the type of business they are in. Perhaps this could be done by offering seminars in different areas of the business world. Some of the people who have gotten into business and some of the communities that are attempting to get into development corporations need much developmental work. The ideas are good, the people are willing to work, the possibility of funding is there, but once they get everything going, the financial support and so forth, they need ongoing development. I would like to see that part of the program enhanced, or if it is not there, to develop a program of some sort by Economic Development and Tourism to help people, corporations or communities that want to get involved with economic development. Mahsi. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am quite pleased with the development that has been taking place, especially in depressed regions such as the Keewatin. I heard the news that the purchase of carvings from Repulse Bay will take place, and that the fish and meat processed in Rankin Inlet has helped the fishermen in this region become actively involved in commercial fishing. I am hoping that more will take place to boost the economy in the small communities so people will be less dependent on government services such as social services, et cetera.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question to the Minister. We have been talking with the region and headquarters regarding the economic development officer PYs in the Aivilik riding. For example, there is a .5 PY allocated for Chesterfield Inlet, Chesterfield has been serviced by Baker Lake and they are quite happy with that arrangement. We have been told that a full PY would be moved back to Coral Harbour sometime in April, the beginning of the fiscal year. We have also been talking that .5 PY would be moved from Chesterfield to Repulse Bay to replace the PY that is to be put back to Coral Harbour. What is the status of these discussions?

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, effective April 1, Coral Harbour will have its own EDO, there will be a PY there. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What about Repulse Bay? Will they lose that PY or has some other arrangement been made?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

The positioning of a PY in Coral Harbour will not affect Repulse Bay, it will remain the same, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Lewis.

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. We spent quite a bit of money and also a great deal of time in the last Assembly to try to come to grips with the real nature of our economic problems. It still puzzles me that with only 58,000 people and with a budget of over $1 billion that we continually still talk about the huge economic problem we have. It should be no great challenge to employ a far greater number of people than we do because we have a very small population. It is tiny.

In the past, and it may be in the nature of the weakness of political systems, each Minister of Economic Development tried to come up with some great scheme, a winner. Economics do not work that way. I was happy to hear some of the comments made, there seems to be a change, instead of trying to come up with some great mammoth scheme that is going to solve all our problems, there is a preparedness to listen to what people really want to do, locally.

Unless you really feel enthusiastic about something, you are really not going to put much work and much money into it. If you have your own dream and you are full of enthusiasm then there is a good chance you will follow through on it. However, if somebody dreams up something in Yellowknife, Ottawa or any other big centre and expects someone to grab it and say, "wonderful, I love your idea" human nature does not seem to work that way. There has to be a far greater receptiveness, if you like, to see what makes sense from the point of view of local people. They are not always right, they may be dreaming, but there is a good chance they will have a good feel for what they want to do, what their capabilities are and the potential for success.

One initiative that has been taken by many people over the last three or four years, and we have not really helped, is setting up some kind of banking system. It was the first recommendation of our committee when we dealt with the economy, we have to try to get people to understand personal economy. Before you can become a very significant part of any economic system, you have to understand the basics of how to handle your own money, what you do with it, and how you use it. For years now we have heard this proposal that we either have a credit corporation or a trust system, but instead of blowing your money on the weekend, you have some place where it is secure. No one can just come up to you and ask for a loan because it is in the bank. It is something you have set aside for some purpose. That is one weakness I see.

There is a great desire and demand to try to do something about banking and we have not responded to it. The federal government has not responded to it either in a way that would at least give us a start to try and get people to understand individual, personal economy. Nothing is going to happen until we get that.

It is all right for local people to say this is what I want to do, but there is a proportion of the small population that we have, who do not have the necessary skills to do the things they want to do. When they get into a project or enterprise, they suddenly realize there is something they do not have. We have pointed this out for some time. If people want to focus on something that makes sense to them locally, it is not just in terms of what is needed and possible, but also in terms of the abilities they have to be able to pull it off. So I see that as being very significant and very important.

When I was growing up, Mr. Chairman, I was a socialist. That is a terrible word to use in North America. Where I lived everyone was a socialist. They believed that the main job of government was to redistribute wealth, get many other people to make it and then share it around among all the poor people and they would be happy. One of the weaknesses I see now, and I see it right throughout our system, especially in the bureaucracy, is that private enterprise is a dirty word. Those are bad people and they are a little bit smelly, if you are trying to make a dollar. I see that as a huge weakness. I have come 180 degrees around from what I was when I was a young man. I still see some very important social goals that every government has to pursue, but one thing which is missing is that we do not present successful entrepreneurs as role models. I see all kinds of pictures of Mr. Koe and Mr. Zoe, who have been successful in the bureaucracy, good at carrying briefcases and negotiating with the federal government on different things, but we do not see people who have dug into the hole and spent countless hours trying to make some money, create some wealth, to employee more people and make more taxpayers. There is nothing dirty about that. It took me about 50 years to figure that out. That is what makes the world turn. These people are a special breed. People who are not really nasty people who just want to make piles and piles of money to blow. They are people who are motivated by the idea that they want to do something. They want to do something they can be proud of because they created it and they can look back and say "Look what I was able to do with my life."

We do not have many of those kinds of people in the Northwest Territories. It is a role model that is missing. I would be prepared to say "Let us create one in every community." Someone who is doing all of this, so that people can see there is a different way of making a living. There are other ways of being successful and contributing. I am not saying that public service is a terrible thing, it is a wonderful thing to do that. If you want to spend your life doing that, it is a marvellous thing. That is not to deny the people who are going to make the difference in the NWT, people who can grab an opportunity, run with it, create some wealth and employ many people so we no longer have the huge dependence on government that we have had for so long. If we can achieve at least the beginnings of that and get an entrepreneurial spirit going, it will be a major achievement.

People often say, "well, come up with something concrete. We are fed up with hearing all of this talk." Why can we not say, "these are the kinds of people we would like to see in greater numbers." How can we find ways of encouraging people to do the things they want to do in a way that would be of benefit, not only to themselves, but also the people in the Northwest Territories. I am tired of people saying life is carrying a briefcase, going to meetings and using the word "negotiate" all the time. It is not their money they are talking about, it belongs to someone else.

General comments? Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Lewis has hit the nail on the head. There are two things and it has been something we have been saying for the last year and that is, "there is no point in trying to tell people what you want them to do." If they want to develop an economy, they are going to have to do it themselves and we are going to have to assist them. They are going to have to be happy about what they want to do.

Secondly, the way we are backing that up is by saying in the smaller communities, "you tell the EDO what you want that person to go out and examine for you by way of economic prospects. In return for that we would still like you to deliver our programs to the community."

I think Mr. Lewis is also correct in that lust for profits has not been as apparent as we would like to see it, but I want to tell you Mr. Lewis, that I have recently returned from Fort McPherson, Arctic Red River and Inuvik. I was there to meet with the Gwich'in. Their attitude is "let us make some money. Profit is not a dirty word." So I think we are beginning to see that in the Gwich'in, now that they have settled their claim and they want to invest their dollars and put their people to work. We are seeing it with the Inuvialuit. It has been there for a considerable time. I think you will see that happen in the Sahtu as well, as people resolve their land claims and become landlords and owners of resources, then they are going to turn to the idea of making use of those resources and that land to make a profit. In each of the cases I have mentioned, those people are saying to us, "we are getting on to the economic stage right now and we want to be part of it."

If you move further down the valley and you get to the Dogrib nation, there is no question that they are out there trying to make a buck. There is that spirit beginning to evolve. As the land claim is signed off and completed with division of the territories, in the east you will see the same kind of thing occur. What we are seeing out there is some very aggressive northerners who want to get into business. That is causing us a bit of a problem. That is they want to get into business and there are already people in the Northwest Territories who are already in the business. For example, the construction industry are feeling threatened by the people who say, "well, we have watched these Yellowknife machines go by our door all the time with some driver from another part of the territories. We have seen the logos on the side of the Yellowknife machines and they are not representative of a company in our area, in fact, we do not own a company. We want part of the action." As these people get involved, they come to us and say, "we want to put our people to work." The rest of the construction industry in the Northwest Territories is saying to me, "hey, what about us? There are too many negotiated contracts." It is a question of balance. There is only one way to make sure that everyone gets a slice of this pie and you said it earlier on today, Mr. Lewis, that is you have to make the pie bigger. That is why, in addition to paying attention to these small things that are going on in communities and the regional issues, we are also, through Mr. Todd and Madam Premier, looking at these large scale developments as well. That is what it is going to take to make the piece of the pie bigger.

You also are correct, Mr. Lewis, when you say we do not have total jurisdiction over all of the things which are in the Northwest Territories, so consequently we do not have total power. This is a very real problem because it does hamper us when we want to see something go on in the Northwest Territories and find out that some agency of the federal government regulates this particular item, and it is not really within our realm. We see corporations going to Ottawa for one thing, coming to us for another thing, and there is a great deal of confusion. This is another aspect which must be addressed through constitutional development. Certainly, having constitutional development take place in the Northwest Territories is going to lead to a better business climate once businesses understand the rules and regulations. As for the entrepreneurial spirit, it is out there and it is growing. Our job is to find more things for it to do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Lewis.