Good afternoon. Prior to Item 2, Ministers' statements, I wish to make a brief ruling.

Speaker's Ruling

On Friday, February 26, 1993, the Member for Thebacha submitted two written questions. Written Question 22-12(3) seeks information from the Minister of Health on the number of patient visits to each of the physicians on contract with the Fort Smith health centre from 1989 to 1993. Written Question 23-12(3) seeks a summary of travel of all board members of the Fort Smith health centre during the period 1988 to the dissolution of the board. I have reviewed the written questions and the terms of reference of the public inquiry into the Fort Smith health centre, which was tabled on September 30, 1992, and is Tabled Document 106-12(2), and rule that both questions contravene rule 35(g)(ii) of our rules, which prohibit debate on any matter that is before any quasi-judicial, administrative or investigative body constituted by the Assembly or under the authority of an act of the Assembly where any person or persons may be prejudice in such matter by the reference. In addition, the public inquiry was established as a result of adopted Motion 30-12(2) of this Assembly. On reviewing the terms of reference, it is clear the public inquiry established under the Public Inquiries Act is to review the provision and quality of medical services at the Fort Smith health centre. It is also mandated to review the role and responsibility of board members with the public. The inquiry is also mandated to review the events leading to the resignation of the board. In addition, the inquiry is to conduct a comprehensive review of various features of the administration of the Fort Smith health centre over the last five years and the relationship between the facility and the community it serves.

Accordingly, Mrs. Marie-Jewell's questions are directly relevant to the matters the inquiry is to review and report on and are, therefore, a contravention of our rules and the sub judice convention. The fact that these issues were raised by written questions and not in oral questions or in debate is not relevant, as the same rules that apply to oral questions apply to written questions.

I would like to quote citation 427 from Beauchesne's, 6th edition, "The Speaker, in common with the duties of supervision over the proceedings of the House, may rule out of order any question which violates the rules or practice of parliament in the same way as irregularities in motions and amendments are dealt with." It is the chair's responsibility to ensure that the rules are enforced. The chair believes that wide latitude should be given Members in asking questions. However, when questions, either oral or written, are obviously an infraction of a specific rule, and since the rules are the rules of the Legislative Assembly, I will enforce the rules. Then, accordingly, I rule Written Questions 22-12(3) and 23-12(3) out of order.

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On March 2, 3 and 4, I plan to travel to Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island to meet with four representatives of the European Parliament, who have been invited by the international fund for animal welfare to learn about harp seals. Members of this Assembly will recall that the international fund for animal welfare recently sponsored the full page advertisement in Canada's newspapers requesting a ban on seal hunts.

Mr. Speaker, I intend to inform the members of the European parliament about the impact of the European ban on importing sealskins on our northern economy and peoples. I will also explain our life-style and the benefits that our northern renewable resources provide to us. The chairman from the Clyde River hunters' and trappers' association will accompany me to meet these people and he will also emphasize how we live.

By teaching other people about how we live, we help ensure that actions will not be taken to adversely affect our way of life. I will provide a full report upon my return. Thank you.

Item 2, Ministers' statements. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome, once again, to the Legislative Assembly, the Speaker of the Alberta Legislative Assembly, Dr. the Honourable David Carter and Mrs. Carter, also accompanying the Speaker are four members of the Alberta legislative interns' program.

---Applause

I would like to welcome in the gallery the Member of Parliament for the Western Arctic, Ethel Blondin.

---Applause Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to mention that Harriet McKay, an elder from the Hay River Reserve passed away last week.

The Hay River reserve was first established in 1974. They have been requesting for public housing for many years. I have even written to the Government Leader and before that to the Ministers of Housing, Tom Butters and Nick Sibbeston. To date we have not seen any results. The people who most deserve public housing, the poor people, do not seem to get these houses. If these people who are in need of housing were to get these houses, incidents such as this would not happen. The elder I am speaking about still burned wood and had no electricity. The house which she passed away in was an old shack. If these conditions continue there are going to be more incidents such as this one on the Hay River reserve.

The senior citizens' home will be opening this Friday.

This is the request that I would like to put forth. Thank you.

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudluk.

Mr. Speaker, this is not going to be a Member's statement, it is going to be an announcement only.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, I have been requested by our colleague Mr. Kenoayoak Pudlat, MLA for Baffin South, to inform the House that he would not be here today because two of his relatives passed away this past weekend in his constituency. As well, his brother-in-law is in critical condition. For that reason he will not be in the House today. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Pudluk. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, overall I am very pleased with the progress which has been made towards the new school in Apex since the tragic fire last fall. I am pleased to report to the House that renovations on a temporary school in a former duplex/residence are progressing well and occupancy of that temporary school is expected to take place March 31. I am told that DPW officials in the community have worked above and beyond the call of duty to see that this moves ahead.

Also last week, town council approved in principle, construction on the existing site of the burned school following a meeting in Apex. There was a good turn out and unanimous support from the community for rebuilding on the existing site. Virtually everyone was there, they were very pleased that council accepted their recommendations and that the Department of Public Works would be applying for a development permit for that site. I am very pleased with all of this, Mr. Speaker.

However, I do have one concern. Niaqunguut education council and members of the community are concerned that the new school should have a gym. The old school, which burned down, had a good size gym. The Niaqunguut education society had been told the government had insurance on the school and that this insurance entitles the government to replace the destroyed property with property of "like kind and quality." I think that is a provision of the GNWT's all-property blanket insurance policy. Mr. Speaker, the people of Apex are expecting the new school will also have a gym and Members who have been there know the school has always been a focal point for community meetings and activities. I will be asking the Minister of Education to work with myself and the community to ensure the new school has a gym. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson, your timing was impeccable. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to oral question by Mr. Gargan on February 24. Mr. Gargan asked me if the Department of Transportation has insurance for its ferry, the MV Merv Hardie. The ferry carries full marine insurance for operations in Canadian minor waters. This includes operation anywhere in the Mackenzie River watershed.

The insurance covers collision, striking, stranding, sinking, fire and the discharge of pollutants.

The vessel itself is insured for a value of $5.1 million. Its third-party liability is unlimited and, in the event of a discharge of pollutants, the coverage is up to $170 million.

All ships owned by the federal government, whether Fisheries and Oceans, Department of National Defence or the Canadian Coast Guard, are self-insured.

In the incident of October 23, 1992, neither vessel sustained any damage or loss which would constitute a recoverable claim.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to a question asked by Mr. Pudluk with respect to the classification of drivers' licences.

On Tuesday, February 23, the honourable Member for High Arctic reported a problem his constituents were having in applying for class three drivers' licences and receiving class five licences instead. I told Mr. Pudluk that I would look into the problem for him and report back to the House.

The registrar of motor vehicles has reviewed all the class five licences issued over the past six months in the communities of Arctic Bay, Grise Fiord, Nanisivik and Resolute Bay. Over this period, 18 class five and no class three licences were issued in these communities. Four of the class five licences were issued to new drivers and the remaining 14 were licence transfers from jurisdictions outside the Northwest Territories. The registrar could find no instances of converting an application for a class three licence to a class five instead.

The motor vehicles division does change class three applications to class five licences under three circumstances. The application may have been sent to Yellowknife without proof of the practical road test portion of the driving examination. The class three licence requires medical certification and this may not have been included with the application. In some instances, the holder of a class five licence may be issued a restricted class three licence. A condition is added to the back of a class five licence which allows the driver -- this is ridiculous -- to operate a class three single unit truck within the Northwest Territories. Who wrote this?

To the registrar's knowledge, none of these circumstances have occurred in the Member's constituency over the past six months.

If Mr. Pudluk could give me more detail about a particular case, I would be only too pleased to have the department staff look into it for him. Thank you.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to oral question asked by Mr. Pudluk on February 24 regarding the status of the Baffin regional council audit.

The audit team has completed its on-site audit of the BRC and has begun to prepare its report on the audit findings.

The report is expected to be completed by Friday, March 19, 1993. Thank you.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to oral question asked by Mr. Gargan on February 19, 1993, regarding the sobriety policy.

Mr. Gargan asked on February 28, 1993, that the Minister "direct his officials to make a report to other alcohol and drug organizations about the success of this important policy." The Minister at that time undertook to "share the success of this policy with our counterparts in southern Canada."

The policy related to sobriety for alcohol and drug workers has been in place for almost a year and a half. Provincial alcohol and drug commissions were advised of our policy during federal/provincial meetings in Newfoundland in May, 1992.

In order for the adequate assessment and evaluation of the sobriety clause policy to be carried out to effectively measure its success, a significantly longer period of time for the policy to be in place will be required. It would be appropriate to carry out an assessment and evaluation of its effectiveness in 1995, which would be five years after its implementation. In the meantime, I will be instructing officials in the department to monitor the impact of the policy on an ongoing basis. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Arvaluk.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Renewable Resources a question. As he indicated, he will be leaving to go to Prince Edward Island. I assume that since he is leaving shortly, he must have some kind of report which he will be presenting during the meeting. Does he have a written document for presentation which he would table in this House to keep us informed of what he intends to present at his meeting? Thank you.

Mr. Allooloo.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The presentation I will be making is not completed as of yet. It is being documented at the present time. I will be at the meetings for two days. Members from the European parliament will be in attendance, and members from the IFAW will also be in attendance. The meetings begin at 2:00 pm. The European parliament members will be having a dinner meeting in the evening. My agenda items are not all in written form. I do have documents which are being completed right now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Whitford.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are two organizations which were originally funded, one is the Pangnirtung alcohol and drug education committee and the other one is Tuvvik. They are no longer funded through this program. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The honourable Member, Tony Whitford, is well aware that when I was an ordinary Member I was a very strong advocate of this policy for the reasons the community of Pangnirtung is encountering at the present time. I am keeping in touch with them. We have ongoing talks. I have been encouraging them to comply with the sobriety clause. Thank you.

Could I ask Ministers to try to contain their responses to government policy and not to what they might or might not have said or done before they became Ministers. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Whitford.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to encourage the hamlet of Pangnirtung to make their proposal to the department so that the problems in the community can be addressed. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Ms. Mike.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To my knowledge, there is no counsellor presently in Pangnirtung under the alcohol and drug committee. However, there are counsellors provided for young people who are abusing solvents. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question

for the Minister of Social Services regarding a letter written to me by the former Minister about leasing office space on the Hay River reserve. There was a commitment made by the former Minister to lease office space for the department so a social worker who goes onto the reserve has office space on the reserve. Has there been an agreement reached with regard to arrangements for this?

Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice. Thank you.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. In my Member's statement today, I mentioned the housing situation on the Hay River reserve. There is a new housing initiative by the Minister called access to housing. It still does not address the poor people and the people who cannot afford to maintain their own units. What has been done to address the situation on the reserve where they have not been given access to any kind of public housing?

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The access to home ownership program was the HAP program and it has been changed to allow lower income people to access the program because we have the maintenance portion in the program now, so the incomes are lower. We also have, in the access program, special projects, mostly to elders who cannot afford to operate a unit with running water, a furnace and items which use a great deal of electricity. This is a very basic unit that would operate from a wood stove with propane or fuel backup. Those are the programs which are available on the reserve. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, last Friday I was on the reserve and met with the district manager. At that time the district manager did say there was no allocation designated for the reserve, there were no special projects or access to housing projects, nothing. My concern, Mr. Speaker, is that we are still not addressing the issue of social housing for people who cannot afford to maintain or support themselves. I am talking about senior citizens and social assistance recipients. Because of it being a reserve, this government has never addressed the public housing issue for the reserve. There are still many homeless people who cannot afford the initiatives this government has. The only other alternative, Mr. Speaker, is public units. I would like to ask whether he intends to put public units on the reserve to address the people who do not fit into those particular programs?

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure of the allocation to the reserve for this year. All the allocations are made according to the needs survey. If the Member says there are no allocations, I guess that is true because he would know. I understand the problem Mr. Gargan has. I have asked, in my last meeting with the Minister of Indian Affairs, Mr. Siddon, about allocations to treaty Indians for housing. He basically has said that responsibility has been transferred to the territorial government. I cannot find where it was transferred and I am still researching that issue.

I was on the reserve in the spring to meet with the band to talk about public housing and housing in general on the reserve. I believe at that time we were going to follow it up with another meeting to see how we could address those people's needs and see whether the reserve actually wanted to get into public housing and possibility get into a rut that has created some problems in other communities. Maybe there might be another way of addressing those needs, other than the conventional public housing program. I understand that the reserve has an elders' facility. That is social housing similar to public housing that is going to be open soon. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Renewable Resources. I was going to ask for a supplementary question, however, I was too late. Mr. Speaker, this is similar to the questions I asked before. When did the Minister plan the trip to the conference in Charlottetown, PEI?

Minister of Renewable Resources.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We heard on Friday night from the European parliament that the meeting was confirmed. We have been trying to get a meeting with them for a few days. We finally received confirmation that we will be meeting with them. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know what you call this, maybe it is a decision in haste or not very well planned out. How does he expect to make a strong presentation with a high impact when, in fact, I suspect the regional wildlife federations or the Inuit or other aboriginal organizations have not really been consulted as to what position the Minister or government will be taking when meeting with the European parliament and IFAW. How does he expect to make a strong impact in a very short time when

the material has not yet been discussed regarding the GNWT's position?

Minister of Renewable Resources.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As soon as I found out that the European parliamentarians were coming to Canada, I contacted the regions to see if they were going to hold regional conferences. I am referring to HTA's regional representatives. There was one being held in Iqaluit for the Baffin region. I have asked them to discuss the possibility of sending a member from that group to assist me in explaining our position of renewable resources use by the people of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, I have been dealing with this issue since I became a Minister in 1987. I had a chance to go to Europe with the former Minister of Economic Development to state our position on the use of wildlife resources by our people for the purposes of economic venture. I have also been keeping contact with the Fur Institute of Canada, ISI, and the Dene Nation, TFN and Metis Association since 1987. I feel I know the subject, plus I have a staff who are dealing with fur issues extensively. They are working on the document we will be putting forward.

Our position, as a government, is we believe that sustainable development could be reached by using natural resources. Our basic principle as Dene, Inuit and Metis is that the best resources which would allow us to live comfortably and feed ourselves are renewable resources, which we have in the Northwest Territories. I feel qualified, so do Dene people and Metis people, to speak to the issue. They have been touched by the animal rights movement to the core of their hearts. I know my family was effected and Mr. Arvaluk's family was also effected when the seal hunting was being attacked by the animal rights people. As a result, through the initiative of ITC, this government, the Dene Nation and Metis Association, Greenpeace of Canada backed off from their fight to allow aboriginal people to harvest. They recognized that the aboriginal people need to harvest natural resources in the Northwest Territories. They are supportive of us. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am confident the Minister knows the subject of the European ban on importing seal skins in our northern economy. I am also confident that he is knowledgeable about the northern life-style because he lived it, as he mentioned. Mr. Speaker, will he be speaking, arguing and answering questions on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories?

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, this meeting is going to be between politicians. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Ningark. Point of order, Mr. Kakfwi.

That is not a point of order, Mr. Kakfwi, but I will allow some latitude with the rules just to set the record straight in case somebody responds to the wrong information. Go ahead and make your correction, Mr. Kakfwi.

We allowed a certain amount of latitude. I think you may have carried it a little too far, Mr. Kakfwi. Please think about that in future.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the honourable Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, while we put pavement on the roads in the western Arctic, the eastern communities are requesting gravel roads and the need is not being addressed by this government. We are talking about facilitating all-terrain vehicles in the eastern Arctic. We have been requesting this transportation infrastructure since I have been a Member of this House during the past two years. What is the Minister of Transportation doing to address the needs of the eastern Arctic communities?

Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are building an all-weather road from Churchill to Rankin Inlet at a cost of $1 billion. It is a serious question and I would really like to build the road. The department in preparing its budget, are going to take into consideration the kinds of roads that the honourable Member from Pelly Bay is talking about. There will be consideration given, but while there is a significant amount of expenditure in the highway system in the west, some due consideration must be given for some internal community roads to facilitate people to the hunting and fishing areas. I hope when we look at the capital process later in the year we

will be able to accommodate Mr. Ningark as well as others. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When is the honourable Minister going to accommodate my community? Thank you.

Minister of Transportation, Mr. Todd.

We will have continuing discussions and ongoing dialogue with respect to Mr. Ningark's concerns. I hope in the process which has been set up by the Premier with respect to determining capital and priorities within the communities, that the kind of road and infrastructure which Mr. Ningark rightly deserves will be reflected in the priorities established by the hamlet council in consultation with the honourable Member. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On January 13 of this year the Government Leader met with Tom Siddon, the Minister of Indian Affairs. One of the concerns he expressed at that time by form of a letter was with regard to the Canadian Armed Forces shooting caribou in the Northwest Territories. In his letter to the Minister, he said he wished to convey his concern to Kim Campbell who is the Minister of National Defence. Has any progress been made with regard to the Minister making an apology on behalf of the Canadian Armed Forces for the way they acted and using the kind of weapons they did to kill the caribou?

Madam Premier.

Mr. Speaker, there was a follow-up call to find out when we could have a response on that plus some other items, but there has been no further reply from Ms. Campbell.

Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, replies to budget address. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to present a reply to the budget address which was delivered by the Minister of Finance on February 19.

Mr. Speaker, I find that once again the Minister of Finance has a difficult task of trying to present an upbeat picture and message using some pretty sombre statistics and a pretty cloudy fiscal position and outlook. However, I would like to commend the Minister for sticking to his guns and his commitment to achieve a balanced budget in 1993-94. With the information presented to us in the budget address, the Minister states that the 1993-94 budget is a balanced one. The jury is still out, Mr. Speaker, and we will not know for sure how accurate the Minister's predictions will be until the 1993-94 audited public accounts are presented to this House sometime in 1994-95.

The Minister of Finance also cautions us by expressing his concern about elements of uncertainty which could affect the bottom line. The Minister included the following items in his list: the current hospital billings dispute, the pay equity issue, unexpected expenditure requirements and higher social assistance costs. Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister could also have added the following items to his list: the implementation of the staff housing policy, the implementation of the payroll tax, and federal cutbacks to language, cultural and aboriginal programs.

Mr. Speaker, depending on the results of the negotiations and court proceedings, my calculations indicate there is uncertainty on about $140 to $150 million worth of program and tax dollars. This has a big impact on our fiscal position and outlook, especially on the bottom line. Mr. Speaker, because of these uncertainties, I find myself in a very perplexing situation in trying to respond to this budget address. It is my understanding that the budget address is supposed to present to us a detailed overview of the government's fiscal position and outlook, and present some of the proposed changes and new initiatives to expenditures, taxes and revenues.

Mr. Speaker, the budget address does that to some degree but it also has too many qualifications or, as the Minister puts it, "too many uncertainties." Unless the public gets a copy of the actual document, the budget address, they do not get to read the information which is presented in the appendices. Appendix A - fiscal review and outlook, appendix B - revenues, and appendix C - the economic environment. These appendices provide much in-depth details of what has happened to date and what is predicted to happen. These appendices also have many phrases which I find very interesting. For example, you will find these words in the text, "uncontrollable expenditure demands, chronic deficits, disincentive to employment, progressive tax system, indexes of living cost differentials, modest price inflation, weak economic infrastructure, inter-sectoral linkages, economic stagnation, unprecedented competition, and compressing expenditures." Mr. Speaker, there are many more examples which I found.

My point is that the Minister seems to use these weasel words or better known as bureaucratic rhetoric to explain the state of our finances and our economy. I feel sorry for the interpreters and the general public who have to read and try to understand these words. Mr. Speaker, it is also very difficult to develop a focused picture of the proposed fiscal framework and new initiatives because much of the detail is yet to be presented to this Assembly. For example, further details of the proposed one time funding of $6 million for the Northwest Territories workers' training fund will be provided by the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment Programs. The Minister of Personnel will be providing more details of the proposed staff housing strategy. The Ministers of Education, Culture and Employment Programs and Housing will be providing information on the new strategy for training and construction. Finally, Mr. Speaker, this Assembly has yet to deal with the proposed payroll tax. These are major new initiatives, Mr. Speaker, and it would have been nice if all of the details were available to the public and this Assembly when this budget address was presented.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased about the Minister of Finance's statement that this budget is forward looking and includes measures that will improve economic efficiency and prepare more northern residents to fill available jobs. However, I have to wait to see the details of the proposed initiatives before I can jump up with glee. I am sure we are all aware of the dependence of our economy and labour market on government. About 30 per cent of the people employed in the Northwest Territories have a job with one of the three levels of government. Therefore, whatever initiatives this government takes depend largely on the goodwill of the federal government. Mr. Speaker, we need to create jobs for our people. I will support any initiatives which will achieve this goal, however, in doing this I hope we do not create have and have not communities and regions.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure we have all heard the saying that nothing is for certain except death and taxes. This government has ensured at least that part of the saying will come true and if all of the tax initiatives are implemented, it may cause a demise of some of our NWT businesses. The payroll tax will impose a one per cent tax on all residents. Here we are trying to use a high seas drift net approach to catch the non-resident employees. All residents will be caught up in the net and in the end some of the Northwest Territories residents will have to pay extra taxes. That was not the intent of the proposed payroll tax initiative. The residents will also be assessed another one per cent increase on their personal income tax. For those who drink the cost went up ten per cent in September. In all areas, actual freight costs will be added to the cost of alcohol. All fees and licenses, including hunting and game licences, are increasing. For government employees living in government housing units they can expect another 25 per cent in rent if the housing strategy is implemented.

The point which I am trying to illustrate is that once again the residents of the north are going to have to pay for some of the inefficiencies of government to enable us to live comfortably on our own homeland. NWT residents already pay a high tax burden. These proposals will further increase this. We all know we have to pay higher costs for food, transportation and recreation. Generally, our cost of living is probably the highest in north America and we do not want it to go any higher.

Mr. Speaker, it seems the economic outlook for the Northwest Territories is very positive. There are many potential major projects which could be developed. However, we must ensure that maximum benefits from these developments stay in the north and we must use northern labour, northern goods and northern services. To be able to do this, this government has to get its house in order. As the Standing Committee on Finance pointed out, it must create a vision, know where we want to go and plan on how to get there.

Mr. Speaker, in summary, I consider this budget a cloudy one, one which can become clear and focused once many of the uncertainties are quantified. We also have to create a healthy working environment for our employees and maintain a good quality of life for our residents. We also have to create an environment so investors are more confident to invest and spend their monies in the Northwest Territories. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Item 9, replies to budget address. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to have this opportunity to reply to the budget address for the 1993-94 fiscal year. As honourable Members will know, the financial challenge which we will be facing as the Government of the Northwest Territories during the next fiscal year are going to be more significant than we have ever encountered before.

Government Priorities

This government is going to have to set its priorities on three things:

-First, there is going to need to be a renewed commitment to "value for money" -- we have to make sure that accountability systems are in place, which guarantee that government programs and services are running with the greatest degree of cost-efficiency. Each spending decision must be scrutinized to ensure there is not a better, more cost efficient way, of achieving the same goal.

-Secondly, there are going to have to be some cuts in programs. No one likes to see this, Mr. Speaker, but the fact of the matter is that, right now, we do not have enough money to pay for everything we would like to do. We do not have the resources to devote to programs or services which only benefit a single region. There must be more equitable distribution of funds based on the priorities that have been identified by people in the communities. We are going to have to cut spending on some programs and services, Mr. Speaker. It is unfortunate, but there is no way around it. We are limited in the amount of revenues which we can generate. Mr. Koe has elaborated on that already. We are limited by the unwillingness of the federal government to fund the territories at a level that will allow us to continue growing. The only way we can beat our way out of this deficit situation is to save money by cutting excess dollars from some of the programs and services.

-Finally, Mr. Speaker, we need a better picture of where we are going. To date, all this government has presented to the House has been a disconnected collection of financial and program initiatives and more bad news about federal cutbacks. We do not have an understanding of the government's financial platform. There does not seem to be a strategy, which ties together the way that all departments should be dealing with the deficit. The Auditor General of Canada noticed there is no strategic plan for the Department of Health. The Standing Committee on Finance pointed out that there is no "vision" for the future. This is an area where we are in bad need of good leadership. I hope that it can be addressed soon by the Premier and her Cabinet colleagues.

GNWT Employee Training

Mr. Speaker, I want to say some more about the need to ensure that there are mechanisms in place for accountability in government spending. For years, it was more or less accepted in the public service that a fair bit of latitude should be given to staff in how to plan their training activities.

When many government workers want to go on a course, the tendency in previous years was to look at this as an excuse for getting down south to visit mom and dad, perhaps see a show or two and get a great deal of shopping done. It was common practice to plan duty travel around personal agendas, even when there were more cost-efficient ways of receiving the necessary training.

Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, most departments now seem to have better control over how training dollars are spent. In most departments, there seems to be a new commitment to tracking training funds and activities in a way that leads to good financial control. While they have not always liked it, I think our hard-working public servants have accepted that as the way it should be.

As long as these measures are tightened up equally on every one, I believe government workers will always be understanding and supportive. However, I am concerned that the same system may not be in place with respect to the training activities of judges in the Northwest Territories.

Judges' Training

Mr. Speaker, this matter has been raised previously. On February 25, 1992, a written question was asked about the type and cost of training received by judges. The government's response was that "training is something which the judiciary administers by itself." On September 30, 1992, I raised this with the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi.

At that time, he stated all we do is provide money for them to run a justice system. He said we provide money for them to take training and those things they deem for themselves as necessary to carry out their judicial duties.

Again, on November 23, I gave a Member's statement, in which I said that I simply cannot agree with the principle that expenditures on judges' training should be kept secret from the public.

Mr. Speaker, I fully understand the principle that the judiciary must be independent from the Legislative Assembly, at least in terms of its ability to make judgement on matters of law. What we are talking about here is not the same thing. We are talking about an expenditure of public money. I believe the public has a right to know how all its money is being used by government. That includes knowing where, and in what amounts, the Department of Justice is spending money to train judges. Of course, the judges are going to try to use all sorts of arguments about why we should not know this. They are going to say that "the administration of the courts cannot become an executive function."

Mr. Speaker, in a 1985 Supreme Court decision, known as Valente versus the Queen, it was clearly stated that essential requirements of judicial controls were always intended to refer to things such as assigning the court rooms, organizing the sitting of the courts and court lists, and supervising administrative staff. It is important for those things to be under the control of the judiciary, but nothing was said about having to keep training activities secret.

Judges' financial situations should not be based on the will of the Legislative Assembly either. The system will not work if the House was to cut judges' salaries for unpopular decisions. Their ability to judge cases independently of the Legislative Assembly cannot be threatened. Those are the essential elements of the independence of the judiciary. I have no trouble with any of them. However, that is not what we are talking about.

The judges are spending public money to go on training courses. To be responsible, we need to ensure this money is being spent appropriately. We need to know, for instance, that a judge is not going to Miami for a course that could be taken in Yellowknife or Edmonton; that their cross-cultural training workshops are being delivered by people who understand the culture of the north, as opposed to a sociologist, lawyer or other so-called southern expert; and, that judges are picking courses that will be helpful in the areas of administrative law, civil law and family law, as well as aspects of criminal law.

Mr. Speaker, we are the trustees of the public purse. I do not think it is right for us to throw money down a well without knowing what is happening to it. In a reply to a written question I asked, the Minister has acknowledged that, "The Member is correct in saying that public expenditures on judicial training may be appropriately scrutinized by the Legislature and its committees." Then, he seems to reserve his position in the same document and says, "Judges are independent of the Legislature and not accountable to it for how they train themselves, nor should this Legislature scrutinize the specific training taken by individual judges and make comment or criticism on it."

Mr. Speaker, I do not buy that. There is no reason why we should not be supplied with the specific training taken by individual judges. If they are so afraid of being criticized, then list them as "Judge number one and Judge number two," and so on. The Minister's documents provided some total figures for training but very little detail. As you know, Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of privilege for this Assembly to have the disclosure of all the necessary details before we vote on appropriations.

In my November 23 statement I commented that unless the House is provided with a list showing how previous year's training dollars have been spent, I will oppose further appropriation for judges to attend workshop courses or training institutes when we deal with the 1993-94 budget. My position has not changed since. The people of the Northwest Territories should know their money is being spent appropriately.

At the proper time, I will consider introducing a motion in committee of the whole to defer territorial court budgets until the details are provided. Further, at the appropriate time, I will consider introducing a motion in committee of the whole that future main estimates should clearly state how much money has been allocated for judges' training. This is the way it was in 1991-92. Since then, the training budgets have been buried away in the overall costs of the territorial courts. I hope the government will see the importance of this principle and will approach this matter with a spirit of cooperation and consensus.

Highway Patrol Service

There was a second issue which I wanted to spend some time discussing today which pertains to the high cost of delivering the current highway patrol services. As I mentioned earlier, our financial situation is making it necessary to cut spending. We must come to grips with the fact that we cannot deliver programs and services which are beyond our means, even if they would be nice to have. I believe many of the functions performed by the highway patrol service could be cut at substantial savings. I believe regular inspections of transport vehicles are necessary. These should continue to be provided by manning the weigh stations on our highways. However, the additional capital expenses of buying and maintaining a fleet of vehicles for highway patrol officers to cruise a few miles of highway, the costly capital and the operational requirements for radar equipment, and the additional PYs that would otherwise be eliminated to reduce the deficit can and should receive a hard examination of this Assembly a few days from now when Mr. Todd's budget is under review.

I am a strong supporter of ensuring that vehicles on highways are safe. That is why I am convinced that the regulatory activities of weigh stations should continue to follow current standards, but I simply cannot see how people who live in Rankin Inlet, Tuktoyaktuk, Lutsel K'e and Whale Cove are going to agree with the idea of paying a salary to someone to sit on the highway near Hay River or Fort Providence to stop one person every 26 hours. That is not value for money, that is not an equitable distribution of funds. That is not even common sense. I believe spending cuts must be made in this over-exaggerated highway compliance system.

When we deal with the Transportation budget, I would like to ask Members to consider deleting portions of the budget which pays for these little cars to cruise around with their radar outfits beeping. I will be asking the Minister to identify the essential elements of these program areas, such as the weigh station compliance inspection and then trim off the rest of the fat. Mr. Speaker, perhaps some of the money we save could be allocated in the direction of increasing the rate per ton paid to independent long-distance hauling by this government, or other initiatives that would foster strong and responsible transportation industry in the north.

Those are the main points I wish to cover in my reply to the budget address, Mr. Speaker. Before closing, I would like to say I am glad my honourable colleague for Nahendeh has agreed to chair the Standing Committee on Finance. I am sure he will be able to maintain the high standards there were by the earlier chairpersons. I would like to thank all the Members of the Standing Committee on Finance for the many hours of hard work they have devoted to review this year's budget. Their work is certainly appreciated. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. Item 9, replies to budget address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I ask for unanimous consent to return to item 13, tabling of documents?

You certainly can, Mr. Todd. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Todd.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table Tabled Document 69-12(3), the 38th annual report of the Northwest Territories Liquor Commission for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1992.

Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Nerysoo.

FOR FIRST READING OF BILLS

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Wednesday, March 3, 1993, I shall move that Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act, be read for the first time.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Tabled Document 2-12(3), The Justice House - Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality; Tabled Document 3-12(3), Report of the Commission for Constitutional Development; Tabled Document 49-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy; Bill 5, An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act; Bill 12, An Act to Amend the Mental Health Act; Bill 17, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94; Minister's Statement 34-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy; Committee Report 10-12(3), Report on Tabled Document 21-12(3): Payroll Tax Act; Committee Report 11-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Main Estimates; and, appearance by members of commission for constitutional development, with Mr. Ningark in the chair.

This committee will come to order. When we concluded on Friday we were discussing the 1993-94 Main Estimates. We were on the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, page 11-15. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will be continuing with the budget.

Thank you. We will continue with the budget. We will take a 15 minute break.

---SHORT RECESS

Department Of Municipal And Community Affairs

This committee will come to order. We are dealing with Bill 17, Appropriation Act, No 2, 1993-94, main estimates. We are on page 11-15, municipal operations and assessment, total O and M. Mr. Allooloo, do you wish to bring in your witnesses?

Yes.

Can the Sergeant-at-Arms please escort the witnesses? Thank you. Mr. Minister, for the record would you please introduce your witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Al Menard, deputy minister and Mr. Jim France, director of finance and administration.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. For the record, I am informed that page 11-14 of the main estimates, sport and recreation was deferred because one of our Members wanted a breakdown on the grants and contributions

. Does the Minister have any information relating to page 11-14? A request was made for a breakdown on the grants and contributions.

Sport And Recreation

Mr. Chairman, I believe the Member wanted information on two items, the agreement between our government and Sport North, and also the breakdown of Sport North contributions. I am prepared to give you both of them, the breakdown of Sport North contributions, as asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell, and the impact of the $250,000 reduction in Sport North.

In 1991-92, the department provided a contribution to Sport North totalling $725,000; $400,000 was for the 1992 Arctic winter games, $30,000 was for the Canada games, $106,000 in grants went to sport governing bodies and $129,000 went to general administration. In 1992-93, the department will contribute a total of $225,000 to Sport North, $150,000 for the 1994 Arctic winter games and $75,000 in grants went to sport governing bodies.

GNWT funding for Arctic winter games is $150,000 in off-game years and $400,000 during a year in which games are held. The Sport North Federation was able to offset the GNWT contribution reduction in 1992-93 by utilizing lottery revenues. The federation's preliminary 1993-94 budget is projecting a shortfall of $400,000 for 1994 Arctic winter games. The department is investigating new revenue options through lotteries to offset this project shortfall.

For the outline of the agreement, the program areas Sport North will manage on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories include: Arctic winter games, Canada summer and winter games, winter regional games, national coaching certification program, sport governing body and annual general meeting funds. In exchange for running these programs, Sport North is provided funds by the Government of the Northwest Territories. The agreement outlines that the programs must be managed under agreed terms of reference. Sport North also has their overall budget approved annually under terms of agreement. Finally, the agreement has a sister agreement, which gives Sport North the responsibility to run western Arctic lottery. These revenues help pay for programs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The information that was requested, I believe, is being disclosed. On page 11-14, sport and recreation, total O and M, $8.057 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Municipal Operations And Assessments

Thank you. We will move on to the next page, 11-15, municipal operations and assessment, total O and M, $47.213 million. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since the Minister will not be in the House tomorrow, I presume from his statement today, I would like to ask some questions about the implications of the government's long-term staff housing policy on municipalities, while the Minister and his officials are here.

What impact is the addition of sizeable new residential customers going to have on municipalities where government tenants become responsible for paying their own water and sewer and thereby become individual ratepayers, as far as water and sewer bills are concerned? Will this have an impact on municipalities in terms of their administration requirements? Will it have impacts on municipalities in terms of their requirement to pay subsidies to residential customers that they would not have had to pay to government users? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, what are the implications on the question by the honourable Member for Iqaluit?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Preliminary assessment by my department indicates minimal impact, both on the municipality as well as the subsidy which the government provides. What is going to happen, though, is that the municipality will bill the home owners residential rate, which is determined by our government through subsidy programs. The municipality will receive the money from the home owners. As well, the municipality will bill the government for the subsidy. We foresee no substantial administration costs to the municipality. At this point, we are forecasting there will only be about 2,000 more invoices by eastern Arctic municipalities.