Good afternoon. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan. Point of order, Mr. Gargan.

Point Of Order

Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of order concerning comments made by the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi in his capacity as the Minister of Justice while he was answering oral questions yesterday. Mr. Speaker, this is the first opportunity I have had to raise on this point of order. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice was answering a supplementary question to Question 489-12(3), asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell. The comments which concern me are contained on page 2543 of the unedited Hansard.

Mr. Speaker, my point of order is regarding the following comments made by the Minister, "Mr. Speaker, my view is that there are two Members of this Legislative Assembly who have taken a particular interest in this inmate. I understand there is a perception on their part that there is not enough punishment for the offence which was committed. I do not see it as a great public concern judging from the lack of interest in other quarters."

Mr. Speaker, I feel the Minister of Justice is alleging that the Member for Thebacha and myself, who I think he is implying to with his comments, have motives with our questions. Mr. Speaker, I also feel the Minister should not be alleging that since he does not see the matter as one of great public concern, that it is not an issue with some of the Members' constituents.

Mr. Speaker, I raise this as a point of order and request your consideration on this matter.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. I think I would like to hear any views which other Members may have on either a point of privilege or point of order. I will allow debate on this. Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Point of order, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. You cannot raise a point of order on a point of order. I will deal with this point of order, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. I am asking for debate on this point of order. Are there any comments on this? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, just to comment on behalf of the point of order which my colleague has raised, I would like to indicate to the Members that our foundation of this institution is based on democracy, representing our constituents. To allege, by a Minister, that we are bringing forth these interests, particularly from the unedited Hansard which is before us to state, "that we have taken a particular interest in this inmate," appears to be somewhat unparliamentary. I think the Minister has certainly imputed false motives on this point of order. I would appreciate your particular comments with respect to this. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Are there any other comments on this point of order? If not, I conclude debate. I will deliberate on this particular point of order and get back to the Members as soon as I have concluded my deliberations.

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Lewis. Point of order, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Point Of Order

Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of order. I have had an opportunity last evening and this morning to review unedited Hansard for March 15, 1993, and particularly to review the comments made by the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, in his response to my questions on the circumstances surrounding the incarceration of a female inmate in Fort Smith.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Kakfwi said on page 2543, "My view is that there are two Members of this Legislature who have taken a particular interest in this inmate." In the same response he goes on to say, "I do not see it as a great public concern judging from the lack of interest in other quarters." Perhaps most objectionably, Mr. Speaker, as the honourable Member stated on page 2544, "I do not agree with the Member that she is the sole spokesperson for what the public thinks should be done in any case."

Mr. Speaker, when I stand up in this House and raise issues, I am acting on behalf of my constituents. I am, in essence, their voice in this House. To suggest that my words are not reflective of the opinions of my constituents, I suggest undermines the entire foundation of our representative system of democracy. In his comments, Mr. Kakfwi appeared to suggest that I was not representing the views of my constituents but rather acting for other unstated motives. To impute false motives to a Member has always been unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker. I would ask Mr. Kakfwi to withdraw his allegations. Thank you.

Thank you. Because I do not have a written copy of your point of order, I want the opportunity to read it, I want an opportunity to see what points, in any, are covered in your point of order that are not covered in Mr. Gargan's point

of order. I will deliberate on this and tomorrow I will tell you if, indeed, you do have a point of order. Thank you.

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions read a long report into the record, which went on for many hours. I have heard from one of my constituents who thought it was rather long. There was some other criticism of it also, Mr. Speaker, that this report was overly critical of the people who work in the health care system. I should point out, Mr. Speaker, that it is the job of this kind of government which is open, to report what it hears. The government, in fact, has then an opportunity, within 120 days, to respond to the committee's report.

However, I should point out in the report and I quote from page 11, "I believe that the people here in Yellowknife do a great amount of very good work, but I think what they do not understand is that they have never lived out in the satellite communities."

In fact, throughout the report there is a recognition that we are not talking about the high level of professional care in the system, but somehow that the structural problems still have to be overcome to meet the requirements of many of the people in the Northwest Territories. So, I think, Mr. Speaker, the government should not be overly sensitive to the fact that we are an open committee and are openly reporting as is required by our terms of reference.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Staff at the River Ridge young offenders facility in Fort Smith have been notified by management that as of April 5, 1993, the facility will become an open custody unit. River Ridge is an institution currently designed to deliver a maximum secure program to young offenders. Mr. Speaker, it costs around $2.7 million to design and build the sort of building which is required to house young offenders on a maximum secure basis. Since February, 1990, all staff training has focused on subjects required for the management of inmates in a maximum secure environment at a considerable cost to the staff development budget in corrections.

A strong team morale and excellent leadership skills have emerged among the River Ridge staff as a result of their experience in working with these very difficult youth and most importantly there is strong evidence that the program is working. Now, the Minister of Justice is talking about throwing all of this away with a complete reversal of program development efforts, which have been a priority for the past two and a half years.

Mr. Speaker, there is likely to be a significant financial cost associated with this plan. Renovation expenditures to make the facility suitable as an open custody residence will have to be accounted for in the corrections budget. Additional dollars for training staff to assume new roles in an open custody unit will have to be found. The facility is not intended for recreation and group related programming which occurs within an open custody setting. It is designed as a maximum secure institution. The idea is not financially feasible and will result in disruption to program delivery, a potential for lowered staff morale, and difficulties in rehabilitating open custody offenders in a maximum secure institution.

No matter how many renovations the Minister is contemplating, the environment is not conducive to successful results. The most ridiculous part of the entire plan is that the Minister intends to renovate the secure facility in Hay River and turn it into a maximum secure institution. There is no doubt that will push the costs even higher. I have to question the quality of planning with the corrections division and will be urging the Minister not to proceed with the changes to River Ridge in Fort Smith. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudluk.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a brief statement. I would like to thank the people who worked hard to deal with the PanArctic issue. They were asking for a permit to dump waste into the ocean. I would like to thank ITC, ICC, and members of the BRC for supporting me on this issue which I was working on. This will show the people how important our environment is to us and how we would want to protect our land and animals. I am happy that the people in the high Arctic were able to work together on this matter. I would like to thank the organizations in supporting me in this matter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Pudluk. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Mayor Kadluk of Chesterfield Inlet, who is in the gallery...

---Applause

...and also Mayor Mablick of Pond Inlet.

---Applause

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to inform Members of this Assembly that I will be leaving the House tomorrow to participate in the Nunavut trades show in Iqaluit, about which I have spoken earlier in this House and to meet with the students at Nanook School in Apex. Students from Nanook School have been calling me to express their

concern. Mr. Speaker, these young people are very anxious to find out about whether or not their new school will have a gym as the old school did. I am not sure what I can tell these eager young people when I meet with them, except that I have been raising the matter in this Legislature. I have been receiving indications of support from other honourable Members. The Minister of Education is well aware of the issue and the matter is before Cabinet.

I know from talking with the Minister of Finance that there will be additional monies required to construct this gym onto the school. I am told that DPW has estimated the premium at an additional $1 million. Mr. Speaker, with the greatest of respect to the Minister of DPW and his officials, I would hope that a 2400 square foot gym, an addition to an existing school plan not much larger in area than a house, could be built onto the school for significantly less than that.

The Arctic Bay community council office was just tendered to a northern firm that is prepared to build that building in a more remote location than Iqaluit for just over $250 per square foot. This school has already been designed. I assume the architect was already paid because they are using the same model as the Paulatuk school and it is part of a school which already has a boiler and mechanical systems for the four classrooms.

Mr. Speaker, I hope the Minister of Finance will be sympathetic to my pleas. I hope he will remember back to when he was an ordinary Member and was beseeching Cabinet and this House to add a gym to the new Harry Camsell School which was built in Hay River. He was successful in his pleas. I attended the opening of that new school. It has a beautiful gym. All the kids from Apex want is a small gym. I will report back on what the kids say when I return to this House next week. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. You had one second to spare. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I am concerned about a recent statement in this Legislative Assembly about the proposed Mackenzie Valley road. People along the valley are very concerned about what they hear on CBC Radio, which was making reference last week to the Mackenzie Valley road as "a road that goes nowhere." People who live and work in the communities along the Mackenzie Valley have been working hard for many years to promote the construction of this road. This road has many potential benefits.

A road linking the communities in the Mackenzie Valley will eventually support renewable and non-renewable develops such as oil and mineral explorations. This type of exploration and development are essential to stimulate the economy of the whole valley. The Mackenzie Valley Highway has potential to immediately reduce the cost of doing business in all the communities in the valley.

We cannot afford to leave our communities isolated. The proposed road would supply an essential link to prosperity and growth. The Mackenzie Valley road would also provide new opportunities for development of tourism in each of the communities along the way. It would provide access to Inuvik through the Northwest Territories. A loop could be created by joining with the Dempster Highway, Mr. Speaker. This road could provide the backbone of an infrastructure that is so badly needed in these communities. Mr. Speaker, in order to develop our economy, it is essential to develop our infrastructure first. The Mackenzie Valley road would be a very important infrastructure to develop and that way we can develop our economy along the Mackenzie Valley. Mahsi Cho.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At 6:20 pm March 14, there was a report that the tailings pond solution from Giant Mine seemed to be spilling. It was reported to our spill line, which my department administers. At 6:26 pm the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada was contacted as they have jurisdiction in this area. Since the Giant Mine property is on territorial lands, they are responsible to monitor and administer the spills. The spill covered approximately 30 by 50 metres. Since it was reported to Indian and Northern Affairs, they immediately responded to the spill. Today the spill which occurred is frozen and it has been removed and placed in the tailings pond. The situation is being monitored by Indian and Northern Affairs, but the clean-up has been completed. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am told it is tailings from the mine and it consists of quite a few minerals. I am told it is a regular tailings pond that consists of minerals which are generated by the mine. I am not sure what they are, but I am told it is a normal tailings pond. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Allooloo.

Mr. Speaker, my department, and Indian and Northern Affairs are trying to determine what caused the spill. I am not sure whether it was overflow or whether there was something faulty. At this point, I do not know.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The 11th Assembly was dominated by our concern for the economy and our concern for the environment. Many Members will recall the pulp mills, the contamination of mothers' milk and so on. There was a long list of things which we were concerned about. I asked the Government Leader a question on June 17, which she took as notice, and it referred to the round table on the environment and the economy. My question was, is the government still committed, in light of the continuing concern about the environment, to having a round table on the economy of the environment?

Madam Premier.

Mr. Speaker, the concern for the environment is upmost in all Members' minds and the Northwest Territories is an area of Canada where, perhaps, we have more responsibility to make sure that much of what has happened in southern Canada, does not happen in northern Canada. Mr. Speaker, we are not funding a round table on the environment, but we are committed as a whole to environmental issues. We are looking at a way to gather people together from time to time in an advisory capacity. However, Mr. Speaker, as the Member knows, in the land claims issues many of the areas of environment are covered, and how we organize ourselves in bringing other people together, other than our own daily responsibility to track and be involved with environmental issues, have to be respected because it is an element which is very much a priority in the land claims issues. Mr. Speaker, because times are changing and various land claims settlements have an environmental section within the claim, we are looking at trying to find a way of integrating the territorial-wide concerns with the integrity of the aboriginal claims. At this point in time, we have not allocated funding for a round table. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Lewis.

A large number of the people I represent, Mr. Speaker, are not beneficiaries of any land claim and have a tremendous interest in the environment. In fact, we passed a bill in the last Assembly making environment a public trust, it was everyone's business. My question to the Minister is, has she officially disbanded the round table on the environment and the economy? Have the people which were appointed to that been told that it no longer exists?

Ms. Cournoyea. That was two questions, Mr. Lewis. Ms. Cournoyea, the first question.

Mr. Speaker, as a round table on the environment as it was set up has been disbanded. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Minister is aware there are three categories or three levels of facilities for housing young offenders: maximum secure facilities, secure facilities and open custody placements. I would like to ask the Minister, will he confirm, as the Minister responsible for the corrections division, that he is now planning to change the Hay River secure facility in Hay River so it can now house young offenders sentenced to maximum secure facilities? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, the people in my constituency are concerned about the state of the hospital facilities there. The building and equipment are fairly aged. I asked the Minister on February 23 what her department was doing to start planning for a new health facility in the Inuvik region and

at that time the Minister took the question as notice. Mr. Speaker, health issues and sick people cannot wait for government to act and make decisions. Can the Minister indicate as to whether and when the planning will start for a new health facility in the Inuvik region?

Minister of Health, Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Social Services. On March 8, 1993, I asked the Minister a question about the wood subsidy program, particularly as it applies to people who live in substandard housing in the eastern Arctic. Specifically, I wanted to know why naphtha gas and kerosine were not included when these are used as sources of fuel in the eastern Arctic. Can the Minister indicate whether she has an answer to my question?

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe I had written a letter to the Member about a week and a half ago.

Supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Mr. Speaker, I understand that on April 10, 1991, the former Member for Baffin Central, Mr. Ipeelee Kilabuk, asked the Minister of MACA about the hunter subsidy for kerosene. At the time, the Honourable Tom Butters stated that he would not favour subsidizing the purchase of kerosene because it is an unstable heating fuel. Recognizing that this position has been taken by a past administration, what is the Minister's position on whether the Department of Social Services should subsidize elders who use kerosene as the primary source of heating fuel in their homes. Thank you.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was not aware there were people using kerosene as their primary source of heating fuel. I would appreciate if the Member could give me a written letter substantiating the names, and then I will have the department look into it. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Arvaluk.

Mr. Speaker, I really do not know how to ask my second supplementary, however, I understand it was the mandate of Social Services to substantiate the primary use of kerosene for heating fuel, especially for those who are living in shacks. Perhaps I should ask the Minister, is that not the responsibility of the department to substantiate these primary uses?

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In considering the safety aspect of the shacks these people are living in, I would not, as the Minister of Social Services, recommend using kerosene as the primary heating fuel. However, there are programs within the department which are accessible for these people who need it, namely the fuel which I outlined in my last response to the Member's question. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Justice. The outpost camps are often utilized for young offenders. Will these be used in the future for young offenders in the traditional ways? It is very effective and useful. Can the Minister of Justice inform this House if this is planned for the future? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Supplementary, Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, under the budget, can the Minister reassure the House that this is under the main estimates for the fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Speaker, on March 1, I asked a question with regard to whether or not arrangements have been made for office space being leased by the Department of Social Services. I have a letter which confirms that an agreement was signed and reached with regard to office space leasing on November 4 from the former Minister, Mr. Patterson, and that it would take approximately six weeks for the process to be completed. It is now six months later. I am sure the Minister must have a response by now with regard to the question I asked.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The department and the staff of DPW are working on finalizing this. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, the process was started back in November. The normal course of action is approximately six weeks. It is almost six months now. I would like to ask the Minister, when does she expect the department to conclude the arrangements?

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I have said, it is already in the process. They are working on it. I am not going to state a date when it is going to be completed. I could do that and get both the staff of DPW and my department to drop everything and run down to Hay River to have the lease completed. I would urge the Member to have

more patience because I think it is near completion. Thank you.

Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health. On February 23, several questions were raised about the state of the X-ray machine in Inuvik regional hospital. At that time, the Minister mentioned that a meeting of government officials was to be held on February 25 and 26 to develop an option and prepare a plan of action for replacing the X-ray unit at Inuvik regional hospital. My question to the Minister is, was this meeting of government officials held?

Minister of Health.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe it did. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi. If the meeting was held, was a plan of action developed?

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice and report back to the House. Thank you.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On March 6, the Minister of Economic Development talked to the NWT Chamber of Commerce and for $20 you could have listened to Mr. Pollard give his vision of the economy of the Northwest Territories. Those who were at that meeting know more about where we are going, than the people in this Chamber -- that was for just $20, Mr. Speaker. We know the Minister to be a fiscal conservative, he is very careful with money and looks after it well for us. This $250 million that he told the chamber he would be quite happy to advance to the Cabinet for its consideration, what would that money be used for? There is a project right now in the Coronation Gulf which we are told is going to cost about $650 million. What did he have in mind when he said he would be prepared to convince his Cabinet colleagues that we should borrow the $250 million?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, once again I find myself in Mr. Todd's territory. He is the lead Minister in this regard, although I do not deny making those comments to the NWT Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Speaker, what I told the NWT Chamber of Commerce when I was asked about how a major project like that would be financed, was that it would have to be a cooperative effort, that it would have to be between industry, the federal government, ourselves and that there had been some interest by aboriginal organizations in taking part in the venture as well. My preference, Mr. Speaker, would be that it was a cooperative effort and therefore cooperative financing and that we collectively share in the risk. The likelihood of that may or may not come true, but I would point out that the money would be used, in my opinion, for the construction of the transportation corridor and that may include electricity running along side the highway, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Lewis.

I have always been concerned about mega-projects, Mr. Speaker, and wondered about the overall value of them when they are finally analyzed. The $250 million that he was thinking about recommending to Cabinet, does that mean that this amount of money would be to offset the $650 million that the proposals call for in developing the deposit at Izok Lake and to transport it to the Coronation Gulf? Does it just deal with that project, the transportation corridor from the deposit to the water?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, I will explain a bit about the $250 million. When I met with the federal Minister of Finance last August, the closest I could get to what a contribution would have to be from the Government of the Northwest Territories was $200 million. Those numbers have since been revised. So, the $250 million that Mr. Lewis has mentioned, that I have mentioned and I said to the NWT Chamber of Commerce, is not a fixed number. Mr. Todd is crunching those numbers to get them tighter than I had them last year, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, secondly with regard to the $250 million, I said to the chamber of commerce that if it could be proven to me that there would be long-term economic benefits for the Northwest Territories, that if you looked at it as a business deal, that if it was going to make our economy grow and create jobs in the Northwest Territories and allow northern companies to participate, then I would consider recommending to Cabinet that we indeed borrow the $250 million, if that figure is correct.

The $250 million that I am talking about is based upon a road from Yellowknife to Coppermine with a port. I think that the lower portion of the road, from when I turned the file over to Mr. Todd, is where our money would have to go into. There is no question that Minnova has already looked at the possibility of a line up to the Coronation Gulf. They have also looked at a road up to the Coronation Gulf. So, I would be leaning towards the Government of the Northwest Territories assisting to put the road from Yellowknife up into the Lac De Gras area, then from the large ore deposit onto the Coronation Gulf. The money that I am talking about, that I talked about last year, has nothing to do with the actual infrastructure of mines or equipment for mines, it is strictly to do with a transportation corridor which may or may not include electricity, Mr. Speaker.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. In his budget address earlier this session, he stated that current fiscal arrangements between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories are "a disincentive to economic growth." I know this problem has been raised by the Government Leader at first Ministers' conferences and by the Minister of Finance with his counterpart. The budget address also noted there will be a partial review of the current formula in 1993. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he could indicate to this House the status of this review of the formula at this time? Thank you.

Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think what Mr. Patterson is getting at is the perversity factor in our formula funding agreement and also the GDP cap that we have upon us, which are our two great concerns in the formula at the present time. Both of those issues will be on the agenda when our officials meet the first week of April, Mr. Speaker. We intend to again convey at the officials level to the federal government that we are having some problems in this regard. At that meeting will be the Department of Finance federally, there is usually a treasury board representative, there is a representative from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Yukon is usually at those meetings as well because we do them jointly, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, we heard today that Mr. Mazankowski is not going to run for the leadership and he is going to devote his efforts instead to preparing a budget. Mr. Speaker, given that our government has been hit by the pre-budget announcements made in December, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could tell us whether he will be making efforts to take up this issue of the formula and the formula review with the Minister of Finance, before yet another perhaps damaging federal budget is brought down with dire effects in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, I have raised the issue already with Mr. Mazankowski. He is aware of the problems with our formula. I have raised it with Mr. Siddon, as well, who is the lead Minister when it comes to funding the Government of the Northwest Territories. Neither of them seem to be able to understand the perversity factor but, I can tell you that their department officials seem to understand it perfectly well. Will I be making another attempt to talk to him about it? Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will. I will be trying to at least talk to him on the telephone before he brings down either his budget statement or his new budget. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, as Mr. Lewis has pointed out, the Minister of Finance was musing before the NWT Chamber of Commerce recently about borrowing a mere quarter billion on the basis of spin-off economic benefits. Yet, Mr. Speaker, the Minister has told us that the present fiscal formula contains actual disincentives to economic growth. We actually get penalized if there are economic benefits from development, under our current formula. Was the Minister's speculation about borrowing for a return on economic developments premised on his successfully obtaining revisions to our fiscal formula so these disincentives to economic growth, the perversity and the GDP cap elements are removed from the formula?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, we have not been that successful in getting perversity or the GDP cap lifted out of the formula funding agreement. We have, however, advanced to the federal government individual projects such as the road or northern accord, and we have been seeking exemptions for those particular projects from the perversity factor. Mr. Patterson, is indeed correct. If we were to borrow a quarter of a billion dollars and go out and build a road and put many people to work, for every dollar we raised in income tax, we would lose $1.26 out of our formula, which does not seem to be a very good business deal to us. We have been seeking exemptions from the perversity factor where we have been putting forward these kinds of projects and we will continue to do that, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Renewable Resources. Mr. Speaker, in reviewing the minutes of the South Slave divisional board meeting of Friday, February 5, there was a concern expressed to the South Slave divisional board. The concern was about a charter to send students back to Lutsel K'e to attend a funeral for two community members who had died in an accident. The minutes reveal that the charter was donated by the Department of Renewable Resources, no board funds were expended for this. I would like to ask the Minister, what is the policy of the Department of Renewable Resources in respect to donation of charters? Thank you.

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will have to take the question as notice.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you. My question, Mr. Speaker, will be to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I have been a Member now for nearly ten years and I am starting to catch onto the process. Spring is around the corner and we anticipate we will be having floods in my area. I am sure the Minister must have had some ministerial briefings with regard to anticipated problems during the spring thaw. One of the things I have continuously tried to address is with regard to emergency community equipment. The former Minister indicated that there was a cost-sharing program with the federal and territorial governments, I think by the federal government providing 75 per cent. The former Minister also said that they were working with the Hay River reserve to come up with a plan to address that issue. I would like to ask the Minister whether -- this letter is one year old, March 29 -- a meeting has been held to discuss emergency communication equipment with the Hay River reserve?

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member is correct, there is a joint federal and territorial emergency preparedness program. To the Member's question, the officials of my department have been meeting with the people of the Hay River reserve with respect to emergency preparedness, in the event of an emergency, to come up with a plan. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

I realize there have been meetings with the department regarding the emergency procedures. The reserve has specifically asked for assistance in purchasing emergency communication equipment. Has this been addressed?

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if the community has been assisted in obtaining emergency equipment. If not, I will look into this matter right away for the Member. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, on February 22, I asked the Minister of Finance some questions about the proposed payroll tax. I asked the Minister if anyone had been hired to work specifically on the Payroll Tax Act, and the Minister answered that not to his knowledge had anyone been hired. I then asked if he would find out for sure if anyone had been hired and he said he would do that. I am still waiting for the response, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister again, does the Minister know if anyone has been hired to work specifically on the Payroll Tax Act?

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Finance incurred costs in the development of the Payroll Tax Act prior to Committee Motion 47-12(3) on December 8, 1992. Details of these costs were provided to the Standing Committee on Finance on January 12, 1993. These costs were absorbed within the Department of Finance and no supplementary estimate was required. A supplementary appropriation was requested in November, 1992, to provide funding for the development of systems and regulations and for a payroll tax information officer. Coincidentally, an employee of the Department of Finance in Inuvik returned to work on November 30, 1992, from secondment to the Union of Northern Workers. A transfer agreement was executed transferring the employee from Inuvik to headquarters to work in the tax administration division. For the first several days of her employment, this employee was provided with the training required to enable her to answer technical questions on the payroll tax and to support work on the development of regulations, forms and administrative procedures. With the deletion of the payroll tax supplementary estimate on December 8, 1992, this employee was reassigned to other responsibilities. Since mid-December she has been working on tobacco tax inventory declarations, the review of the petroleum product tax regulations and property taxes.

In early December the department also had a toll free telephone tax information line installed, the cost of which has been approximately $1,080 to date. Although the payroll tax has not proceeded as scheduled, continued tax administration related to the tax has been necessary in order to respond to questions from the Standing Committee on Finance and from others, and to undertake related research. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.