Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one problem, and the Minister responded during the last session, with regard to judges' training. This Assembly really does not have any say in the way in which money is spent for the training of judges. I would like to ask the Minister, in which item is that addressed? Previously, this item used to be under the delivery of court services, I believe. It is now included as part of the overall budget of the department. Exactly how much are we talking about with regard to the training of judges?
Debates of March 2nd, 1993
Topics
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, I understand there was a specific budget item only in 1991-92. Since then it has been allocated under the task for territorial courts. It is allocated regionally for Yellowknife, Inuvik, Baffin and Hay River. The money is a small amount. Money is only provided for territorial court judges, not the supreme court judges. It normally covers conferences, seminars and training sessions which are normally provided for most judges across the territories, such as the annual association conferences which are attended once or twice, at the most, every year totalling an average of about $10,000 to $15,000 per year.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Gargan.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
We are not talking about a substantial amount. Where are these conferences being held and how much is being spent? Are we talking about $10,000 or $15,000 per judge?
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The overall expenditure by territorial court judges is approximately $10,000 to $15,000. That is how much is spent in total on average per year by the territorial court judges to attend these conferences and seminars and all of them have been in Canada. I think there may have been one held in Alaska recently, but the next one which is in June, I understand, is in British Columbia.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Gargan.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you. Mr. Chairman, are we doing anything with regard to alternatives to jailing? I understand the Dene cultural institute has been offered some money to research alternatives to jailing. It is a federal program, I believe, and there is a requirement for this government to support that initiative in order for them to get their funding. Is the territorial government looking at receiving the money themselves and possibly doing studies in that area as opposed to the Dene cultural institute or the Inuit?
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, a vision is developing in the area of justice along the lines that the Member is enquiring about. We accept that the present justice system as it is, is not adequate and not serving the purpose and the people it was set up to serve. There is a need for a new vision to be developed and the vision needs to be developed with people at the community level.
We have begun some work with a number of different communities with a view that communities, judges, RCMP, victims and the offenders all need some alternatives, some new solutions to be brought forward to address the inadequacies of the system. For instance, we would look at circle sentencing. Judges, who are normally non-aboriginal people, will gain the support, advice and input of elders, women, youth and community leaders in deciding what sentence should be placed on people who have committed offenses and how to deal with some of the needs of the community in developing a new justice system.
We have set up justice committees in many communities with a view of helping them look at different types of sentences which could be provided and set up to send people to the Yellowknife correctional centre. We will encourage communities to come up with proposals which would look at ways in which projects could be initiated which would allow communities to assume responsibility for their own adult offenders. As well, communities should make some suggestions about the kinds of programs which can be provided to both young offenders and adult offenders.
There is an interest in looking at other experiences in other parts of the world such as British Columbia, the Yukon and the Navajo justice system to see and show people the real possibilities and to encourage people to assume more responsibility in this area.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 706
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Gargan.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask why the Minister has chosen to look at different communities and the delivery of aboriginal justice. Why are we taking that direction as opposed to looking at it from a collective point of view? I do not believe the intention is to have little justice systems all over with communities delivering justice as they see fit. I would hope that the scope is to look at a Dene criminal code, for example. The Navajo have their own volumes of criminal codes which deal with Navajo laws. I wonder if we are looking in that direction or are we looking at "make peace" kinds of initiatives just to keep the communities quiet? As long as they are doing their own little thing and not causing any disturbance to the existing justice system, they will be content. Are we looking at a broader picture?
The Minister mentioned a new vision. One of the things which came out of the report on aboriginal justice is with regard to alternatives to jailing. I refer specifically to that because last week I met with the Dene cultural institute and they are very interested in looking at alternatives to jailing. They have been offered through the federal initiatives, to look at that. I wonder whether the Minister is aware of that and whether he supports that kind of initiative being carried out by the Dene cultural institute. We have to go beyond just what we see in that area. Quite a few elders go to the reserve every month to discuss the entire cultural issue. I believe they are just as knowledgeable with regard to aboriginal law or aboriginal practices as opposed to individual communities doing it themselves. All regions are represented on the Dene cultural board. I am wondering if the Minister is looking at that possibility.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, the sense I have is that not all communities share the same level of interest at this time in making justice a priority. Communities where justice committees have been formed, are largely communities where people have taken the initiative. They have indicated they want to get involved and do something, and up until recently, they have been operating on a volunteer basis. The approach we have taken is to work with the communities and not try to take a more programmed approached to this issue. I think it is the healthiest way to approach it. I agree there are some common themes which need to be maintained. We have to look at discussing, with institutions such as the Dene cultural institute, the developing scenario which we see. We need to make sure they attend these conferences to see for themselves what these different justice committees and people who are involved at the community level are feeling, their perspective, the type of information they require, and the inadequacies of the small bush camp operators in the area of programming and other areas where they would require support.
While there has not been any specific plans to meet with the Dene cultural institute, it is something which is going to happen in the next couple of months. We are of the view that there has to be some consistency in the day to day planning and the kind of programming which communities will want to provide. Once we get a sense of the general parameters of what it is that communities wish to do, particularly through their justice system and community leaders, we will need some group to help us put this together. We are not going to do it with each individual community. I think this is the point the Member is
making. We are in agreement. We have not as of yet initiated this part of the work.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Gargan.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the recommendations which came out of the Standing Committee on Finance is with respect to community justice initiatives and says, "We cannot wait for the communities. The Department of Justice must provide a vision, support and leadership to coax community development." Do you have anyone who is of aboriginal descent who could actually initiate something such as this, besides yourself, Mr. Minister?
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, the level of information and interest which is in the communities certainly needs to be gauged in the interests of everyone. I have spoken with an elder in Inuvik in the hotel lobby about a year ago. He was sitting there, and I told him there was a great deal of interest in justice in the small communities. I talked with him for about 15 minutes. He said, "I have been doing it on my own for a year and a half now." I did not know this. He went into great detail about all the time and effort he has made in trying to help the judges deal with young offenders, and with helping young offenders before they get into trouble, having young offenders sentenced to his care. This leads to the work which we are trying to do now, in setting up conferences in different parts of the territories. There is going to be one in Inuvik some time in March, not unlike the justice conference which was held in the Deh Cho in the previous year. This is to bring interested community people together to share their experiences, their work, and what it is that they see themselves doing, so that we can start to flush out the level of work, awareness and knowledge that is there, that we have not had a chance to bring together. We may not be able to encourage the communities who do not have a high level of interest to set up justice committees, as it may be premature. We can certainly encourage and develop the dialogue which is needed to spark the interest so that communities can be encouraged and supported if they wish to get into these type of initiatives.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Patterson.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 707
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that I think the people of the Northwest Territories are anxious to take responsibility for looking after their young people and anxious to see alternatives to institutions where possible and where appropriate. I know that there are legal requirements and there are security requirements which require that some young people be locked up in buildings. However, I think most of our young offenders are not hard core criminals. They are kids who are crying out for attention, who are committing relatively minor offenses, which appear serious in the eyes of the law. They are crimes such as break and enter which carry very heavy penalties under the criminal code. These, in fact, are not the same kind of break and enters which we see in urban centres in the south. They are break and enters where kids are looking for alcohol. They are not threatening personal security. As I said, in some cases they are crying out for help. They are children of dysfunctional families, alcoholic parents, and they are in need of fulfilment and guidance. I think we have the
resources in our communities to assist those young people. We have elders and people who are experienced on the land, who are able to take care of those young people and from what I know, they are also willing to take care of those young people.
It is my understanding, of the discussions of community justice which have taken place in the Northwest Territories, very often while people may be hesitant to take responsibility in sophisticated areas such as fine option programs, and dealing with difficult issues such as family violence and spousal assault, if you say we would like you to help take care of the young people from your community who are in difficulty, most people would say this is something which they feel they could do. They know these kids and they know how to help. The way to help them is to teach them traditional ways, ideally in a setting which is outside the community and based on the land.
Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make those comments. The department has just taken on the responsibility for corrections. I believe the new assistant deputy minister for corrections is still not in place. I believe that person is yet to be recruited. We do not expect miracles immediately. Recognizing that there are limited funds available and that new money is difficult to come by, could the Minister foresee ways in which the existing corrections budget could be reallocated? It is a staggering amount because the fact is operating 24-hour institutions is extremely expensive, particularly institutional care for these children who need help. They should be diverted away from institutions and toward native people taking care of their own children on the land, in bush camps, in appropriate homes, in our communities. I do not think our constituents would mind seeing some of those expensive institutions cut back or even shut down if they were replaced with these on-the-land community-based facilities. I do not think our people would be upset if we had, at the end of the day, fewer young offender institutions. There should be more involvement of elders and those people we know of in every community, who are very capable of providing role models to those children and providing them with fulfilment and guidance they may not have enjoyed in the upbringing that occurred in their particular family.
Recognizing the difficult financial times and the probable impossibility of getting new money, will it be possible, with ingenuity, flexibility, creativity and undoubtedly with the support of Members of this Assembly, for the Minister to find ways to get some young offenders programs up and running using the resources that are already in place in the corrections budget devoted to young offenders, which are now being spent on institutional programs in towns and communities? I would like the Minister's general comments on that proposition, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 708
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 708
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, the answer is, yes. We want to look at initiatives which are coming from communities. We want to look at initiatives which propose to have community-based, land-based programming, but we also know that sending young offenders or adult offenders out on the land with an aboriginal family, is not going to resolve all the problems. Again, we go back to the point that some of the resources have to go toward asking agencies to help us develop some suitable programming that can be available to the operators of some of these community-based institutions to provide for the needs of the people they take in. All the operations we have now for closed custody facilities and the open custody facilities, are being reviewed with a view to move in the direction that the Member has indicated.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 708
The Chair Ludy Pudluk
Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Patterson.
Committee Motion 77-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation 14
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 708
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was certainly very pleased with the Minister's response. I have no disagreement with the need to make sure there is a thoughtful program developed. It is not enough just to say, "The children are going to go out on the land." There has to be a plan and a program. There has to be structure and a result-oriented approach. Do I take it from the Minister's response that perhaps the route that can be taken is to incorporate these on-the-land programs into the programs of the institutional facilities, so that the on-the-land programs will be connected to existing institutions with the professional resources that are available, and will be established, not as an alternative, but as part of the institutional programs? Is that a possible route that could be looked at?