Good afternoon. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Madam Premier.

Mr. Speaker, the Honourable John Todd will be absent from the House today as he is attending meetings with the Keewatin Inuit Association. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is with heavy heart that I rise today ...

---Laughter

... to state, for the record, that the MLA Sharks were narrowly defeated by the media Ravens hockey team. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the unthinkable happened last Saturday evening in front of more than 100 spectators. The unsinkable MLA Sharks were benched 8-6 by the Ravens. We can take some consolation, however, in the fact that our very own Sheila MacPherson was named the media's most valuable player.

---Applause

---Laughter

Ms. MacPherson also had the distinction of collecting the first penalty of the game, a shameful fact that will probably get our lawyer disbarred. The Sharks can also take consolation in the fact that they played a good solid, and most importantly, Mr. Speaker, clean hockey game. Since I consider myself a good sport, Mr. Speaker, I will not accuse the media of cheating, although that we all know they did.

---Laughter

---Laughter

The Sharks were also disappointed when the Government Leader, Nellie "The Puck Stops Here" Cournoyea was arrested by the caribou cops just seconds after the game began, another shameful act, Mr. Speaker.

On the positive side, Mr. Speaker, we would like to thank the following MLAs for their fine performance: Titus "Beebop" Allooloo, Rebecca "You Are Lucky I Am The Minister Of Health" Mike, Richard "Madtrapper" Nerysoo, Henry "Zorro" Zoe, James "Lee Van Cleefe" Arvaluk, and Jim "The Lynx River Trapper" Antoine. I would also like to thank the Assembly staff and the deputy ministers who helped strengthen the Sharks' roster.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to apologize to the general manager, David "Scottie" Hamilton, on behalf of the Sharks for losing. I promise Mr. Hamilton that next year the road dog will be carrying our flag around the arena. By the way, Mr. Speaker, you will have to do a much better job at juggling the lines if you want to be a coach next year.

---Laughter

One observation as a coach, on other teams people who criticize the coach are sent down to the minors and can play the rest of their career for a federal government farm team.

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to speak about the annual meeting of the Gwich'in renewable resources council, which was held in Inuvik from March 17 to 19, 1993. Renewable resources councils, which have basically replaced the hunters' and trappers' association, have been established by the Gwich'in comprehensive land claim agreement. Clause 12.9.1 of the agreement states that there shall be a renewable resources council in each Gwich'in community to encourage and promote local involvement in conservation, harvesting studies and research and wildlife management in the local community.

Mr. Speaker, I was very impressed with the level of commitment and the participation of the 30 plus delegates of this meeting. Many issues were discussed and some of the resolutions dealt with the compensation for hunters and trappers, and the establishment of a trap manufacturing plant. Many issues related to the Porcupine Caribou Management Board. They wish to establish a fur auction house. They wish to establish a renewable resource management program in the Gwich'in settlement area. They wish to establish a tannery. They also set some restrictions on hunting of grizzly bears and caribou on the Dempster highway.

Mr. Speaker, I will be tabling copies of the resolutions which were adopted at this meeting, later today. Again, I wish to congratulate the organizers of the meeting, all the participants, and, especially, the chairperson, William Greenland and the co-chairperson, Morris Blake, who kept the proceedings moving and discussions on track. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you. We have visitors in the gallery, the mayor and deputy mayor of Fort Simpson, Mr. Ray Michaud and Mr. Tom Wilson.

---Applause

Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and in particular, thank you for coaching the hockey game. Mr. Speaker, on Thursday, March 18, I questioned the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, on the government's plans to make the River Ridge facility, located in Fort Smith, an open custody facility for young offenders. As members of the public may know, this facility was originally planned and built

as a secure custody facility for young offenders. Mr. Speaker, I am cognizant of the government's desire to save money by designating this facility as an open custody facility. It is my understanding the secure custody facility is currently being under utilized. Nonetheless, I am very concerned that the government is making this decision rashly and without adequate consideration of the need for young offenders.

Mr. Speaker, the federal Young Offenders Act has two very different definitions for open custody and secure custody. Open custody means custody in a community residential centre, group home, child care institution, wilderness camp or any other like place or facility. Secure custody means custody in a place designated or the secure containment or restraint of young persons. These two definitions suggest very different types of custodial facilities. The Minister has already indicated that there will be no renovations to the River Ridge centre which will remove the bars and other secure devices which makes this facility a secure custody facility.

Mr. Speaker, in a Prince Edward Island court case, the court held that the King's County Jail was a facility for adult offenders, a secure facility and also an open custody facility. Justice MacDonald, at the time, indicated the physical characteristics of a facility were relevant to a determination of whether the facility could be designated as an open custody facility. He indicated that the physical characteristics of an institution were not conclusive and that other characteristics such as the number of staff, the qualifications of staff, and the establishment of programs set for the benefits of offenders were also relevant for determining whether a place could be properly designated as an open custody facility within the meaning of the Young Offenders Act.

Similarly, in Nova Scotia's decision...

Mrs. Marie-Jewell, your allotted time has lapsed.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent to conclude.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you. Similarly, in Nova Scotia, the Nova Scotia Supreme Court held that the dual designation of a jail as both an open and secure placement was improper. In that decision the court focused on the lack of facilities and the lack of programs for guidance and assistance for young offenders in determining whether the designation was valid.

Mr. Speaker, the Young Offenders Act and judges in sentencing young offenders have made a very clear distinction between open custody and secure custody. I do not believe the Minister can simply wave his wand or his hand and without proper structural alterations and other personal modifications change a facility from open custody to secure custody. I will continue to pursue this issue with the Minister until such time as the concerns of my constituents as to the validity of the Minister's actions have been fully addressed by his department. Thank you.

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, I went for a drive on the highway out of Yellowknife. I thought at first this highway went nowhere. It is called the Ingraham Trail and 20 kilometres of it is paved. As I drove along the highway, I realized that this highway did go some place. At the end of the highway there is a mine and there is a great deal of transportation going back and forth. There are people taking advantage of that highway, they have cabins along the lakes, recreational facilities and people can ice fish and caribou hunt. This kind of highway is good for this community. As I was driving along, I realized if we had a highway down the Mackenzie Valley, there would be equal opportunity for us to enjoy the land as the people from Yellowknife enjoy their land.

---Applause

The eastern Arctic, too.

The eastern Arctic, as well. The highway is important because people make use of the country. I was fortunate enough to run into a herd of caribou, so I took advantage of that as well.

---Laughter

A kilometre and a half off the road?

A kilometre and a half off the road, Mr. Speaker.

---Laughter

---Applause

I also noticed that 20 kilometres of this highway was paved and I was thinking why could we not have the highway paved from Fort Simpson to the airport, which is only about 16 kilometres. If Yellowknife can have this, why can we not have this in Fort Simpson?

Hear, hear.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Several days ago, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Inuvik made a statement in this House with regard to our representatives at national curling events. I think he commended those who had already participated in national events and represented the Northwest Territories very well. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, during the past week, as was pointed out by Mr. Koe, Mr. Delmage, Mr. Mel Smith, Mr. Ron Kapicki and Mr. Larry Elkin, who we all know very well as the president of the Housing

Corporation, placed second in our national senior men's championships.

---Applause

I think that is commendable on their part and it bodes well for our curling in the Northwest Territories, but even more than that, the kind of athletes that we have the capacity to develop in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Antoine on March 18, 1993, with regard to the transfer of Arctic College credits to southern institutions.

In general, Arctic College graduates, like graduates from other colleges in Canada, may apply to enter programs offered through other post-secondary institutions. These institutions will review the courses students have taken, the credits they have achieved and determine what credits they will recognize towards the programs students wish to enter.

Arctic College does have formal accreditation agreements with seven other post-secondary institutions for specific programs. The community administration program is accredited with St. Lawrence College; university transfer programs are accredited with the Universities of Alberta and Athabasca; the eastern Arctic teacher education program is accredited with McGill University; the western Arctic teacher education program is accredited with the University of Saskatoon and the social worker program is accredited with the Universities of Calgary and Regina. Arctic College is currently negotiating with the University of McGill concerning accreditation for the interpreter/translator program and with the University of Trent concerning the accreditation of the native studies program.

In addition, the certified nursing assistants' program is recognized nationally. To graduate students must pass a Canada-wide examination. Also, the renewable resource training program is one of ten programs in North America recognized by the American Wildlife Technology Association. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, on March 4, I tabled Tabled Document 82-12(3), which was a Press Independent article about an incident which involved a sexual assault issue of a young offender in Hay River. In the article one of the Minister's senior corrections officials, Mr. Friesen, confirmed that there can be up to four youths living in a single dorm at the Hay River facility. Mr. Friesen is also quoted as saying, "It would be ideal to have single rooms, but it is just too costly to build." Recognizing that the Hay River facility has proven to be completely inadequate as a place to provide secure custody, can the Minister tell the House why his department has now decided to use it as a secure custody institution along with an open custody institution and a remand custody institution? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Recognizing that Mr. Friesen, who is probably one of the Minister's most experienced officials working with young offenders, has stated for the public record that a dormitory style facility creates special supervision problems, how can the Minister justify a facility such as the Hay River secure facility to be a triple designate for young offenders who are sentenced by the courts? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Would you please re-phrase the question, Mrs. Marie-Jewell?

Thank you. I would like the Minister to justify the Hay River secure facility as a triple designate facility to house young offenders who have been sentenced by the courts. Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, under the Young Offenders Act, territorial legislation allows for open custody or wilderness camps. Open custody is generally for young offenders who are designated by the courts to have committed crimes such as offending the Liquor Act or break and enters. Secure custody is generally repeated offenders who have committed either sexual assaults or murder. I would like to ask the Minister, how can he justify placing these young offenders who have such a variety of crimes, in an institution with a triple designation? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. This is your final supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe this issue is only a concern for the union, I believe it is a concern for the staff at River Ridge. They sent me a letter dated March 14, asking me to assist them to allow for their institution to be maintained as a secure facility, probably due to the number and types of training courses they have taken over the past couple of years. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister -- he did not, by the way, answer my question -- if he can tell this House whether his department has determined the extent to which the GNWT is legally liable for physical or emotional damages which are suffered by a young offender who is victimized while they are incarcerated in a territorial facility, particularly a young offender facility? Thank you.

Mr. Kakfwi.

(microphone turned off)

Excuse me, if you have a point of order, make a point of order. Point of order, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister is imputing motives such as cat calling or whatever. Many times we, on this side of the House, request clarity, but I do not believe we are cat calling. I would ask the Minister to answer the question and not make other types of allegations which are totally unwarranted. Thank you.

Thank you. You do not have a point of order, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Kakfwi, in the normal course of debate the chair, everywhere in the country, allows a certain latitude and some responses on either side to statements or questions asked by the other side. When the chair thinks that those responses are getting out of hand, the chair will obviously call people to order. In this particular case, I did not think that the

responses were getting out of hand. I will ask people, according to our rules, to respect each other and try to allow Ministers to complete their answers and, it works the other way, for Ministers to allow Members to ask their questions. We will get back to business. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have raised this issue before in this Assembly, this past year has not been a good year for trappers. There was a change of the style of the traps that are used and, especially in the Gwich'in area and the Delta/Beaufort area, the trappers, at one stage, could not get access to traps. At that time, I asked the Minister to look at the possibility of having a trap manufacturing plant in the north. One of the motions passed this past week by the renewable resource council was that they establish a trap manufacturing plant in the Gwich'in settlement area. Can the Minister please advise if his department has done any work in this regard?

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member is correct. Last fall, when the trapping season opened, we were short of traps for all trappers. Even though we had ordered them, we were only able to get a certain amount which was not enough. We called manufacturers to see if we could get some more. They were not able to keep up to the level of demand that the people of Northwest Territories were demanding. We have done some exploration to see whether there could be manufacturing of traps in the Northwest Territories. I understand my department is working with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism to see if that could be feasible. Up to this point, the two departments are continuing to see if the Northwest Territories companies could start manufacturing the traps. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister then confirm that he, and his department, supports the initiative of trying to get some kind of trap manufacturing plant in the Northwest Territories?

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is correct.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. Mr. Speaker, up to now, people who are living in public units are barely able to pay the rent because of low income and the high cost of living. There has been some speculation that, at some time in the future, the Minister will be reviewing the possibility of increasing the rents for public units. Will the Minister inform the public before he plans to increase the rent because, in the past, we have not been informed by the Minister? The people are complaining that they have not been informed by the Minister of Personnel when he decided to look at the long-term housing strategy. From that, I hope we learn and the Minister will inform the public of his plans. Thank you.

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Any change to any policy will use a community consultation process. We will develop a paper for discussion, table it and send it out to communities. There is a consultation process where you use the community advisory committees, the regional advisory committees and also the advisory committee of MLAs, so everyone will be included in the discussion and the decision. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. The village of Fort Simpson is the same size and even smaller than some of the hamlets in the Northwest Territories. The hamlets are fully subsidized by this government. Fort Simpson is tax-based, but it is very small. It depends on this government for subsidy. Fort Simpson was supposed to receive the water and sewer subsidy. When is the village of Fort Simpson going to receive the water and sewer subsidy? Thank you.

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My department has been working on this issue for quite a long time. We recognize the village is about the same size as some of the hamlets, which have a water and sewer subsidy program in place. It is not a 100 per cent subsidy to hamlets, but it is a subsidy. My department has been working with the community of Fort Simpson in trying to come up with a similar program that is enjoyed by similar sized communities. I have drafted a Cabinet document which I am preparing to take forward to Cabinet. I am not sure when that date is going to

be. Once the document is approved by Cabinet, we will apply it to Fort Simpson. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

This is just a follow-up to my honourable colleague for Natilikmiot with regard to the question to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation. Mr. Speaker, on February 19, I asked the Minister of the Housing Corporation whether he would be considering a rental increase in conjunction with the new housing strategy which was considered, and at the time I asked the question if he intended to propose these changes to the public housing rental and to review the rental scale, he indicated, yes. He also indicated, at the time, and I will quote from Hansard of February 19, "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Within the next couple of weeks I will, hopefully, have a paper to take to the Cabinet to get approval. I will then be consulting with Members and the community people." I would like to ask the Minister, whether his paper has been submitted to the Cabinet and whether he received approval. Thank you.

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes.

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Can the Minister indicate if he received approval for the concept of increasing the rental scale on public units? Thank you.

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I received approval from Cabinet to do more work on the paper, to consult with the ordinary Members and the general public, and then take it back to Cabinet.

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

It seems ironic that the Minister would go to Cabinet and ask permission to proceed with the consulting process. However, I would like to ask the Minister whether he has received approval from the Cabinet to increase the rental scales on public units? Thank you.

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No.

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. According to the comments he made on February 19, when does the Minister anticipate to receive approval with respect to looking at increasing the rental scale for public units? Thank you.

Mr. Morin.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is what we are going to do. We are going to look at changing the rental scale, whether that is by increasing, decreasing or staying the same for some. We will be looking at it. There is a process in place, the advisory committee of ordinary Members as well as community consultation. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment Programs. First of all, I would like to thank the Minister for responding to my question of last week regarding Arctic College credits to southern institutions. Only seven post-secondary institutions have formal accreditation agreements with Arctic College. There are hundreds of post-secondary institutions in the provinces. We are limited to seven. I was wondering if the Minister could inform me if Arctic College is looking at making formal accreditation arrangements with other post-secondary institutions down south. This would enable the people in the north, who devote two years of their lives to taking courses at Arctic College, an opportunity to further themselves if they choose. Thank you.

Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are reviewing this particular matter. In fact, there are other post-secondary institutions which are cooperating with us in delivering some of the programs to a number of the regions. For example, work has been done with Grant McEwan and the University of Lethbridge in the management area. The honourable Member is aware of the management program at the University of Lethbridge. We are trying to cooperate in delivering a program similar to that particular program. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If Arctic College graduates want to further their education and want to go to an institution other than those who have formal accreditation agreements, what do they have to do to be accepted into the post-secondary institution they choose to go to?

Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Normally what occurs is the student should submit or send their transcripts to the appropriate institution for review. Once that review has taken place, the institution could possibly accept all the credits they have received, some of the credits they have received or none of the credits. However, that is the normal practice across the country from one post-secondary institution to another where you are transferring from one program to another.

Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure whether this question is to the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I would like to know whether a policy has been developed with regard to seeking restitution from employees who have been found by the courts to fraud the government. Thank you.

Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice.

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to open address. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had my hand up for written questions, but you probably did not see it. I seek unanimous consent to go back to written questions.

I did not see your hand, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a written question for the Minister of Justice.

Would the Minister of Justice please provide the following information regarding restitution owed to the Government of the Northwest Territories:

a)a list of all court cases in the Northwest Territories during the past five years in which an individual was convicted of a criminal offence and ordered to pay restitution to the Government of the Northwest Territories, including the amount of money ordered to be paid in each case;

b)a listing of cases in which the full amount of restitution ordered to be paid has been received by the Government of the Northwest Territories;

c)a listing of cases in which the full amount of restitution ordered to be paid has not been received by the Government of the Northwest Territories, including the amounts outstanding; and,

d)a listing of cases in which the full amount of restitution has not been received and full payment is not being actively pursued by the Department of Justice, including the reasons that the restitution is not being pursued. Thank you.

Item 6, written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Item 12, tabling of documents.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table Tabled Document 107-12(3), a copy of the resolutions made by the Gwich'in renewable resources councils at their annual general meeting which was held in Inuvik on March 17 to 19, 1993.

Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Wednesday, March 4, I will move the following motion.

I move seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River that the Speaker be authorized to set such additional hours as required to assist with the passage of business before the House. Thank you.

Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Motion 26-12(3), Appointment of Members to the Advisory Committee on Social Housing, by Mr. Lewis. Mr. Lewis is not in the House. That motion will be stood down for the day. Item 15, motions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to address and proceed with my motion today. Thank you.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you.

I MOVE seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River that the Speaker be authorized to set such additional hours as required to assist with the passage of business before the House. Thank you.

The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 15, motions. Mr. Lewis.

I do not know whether I have to seek unanimous consent to go back to an earlier item, but we are still on motions, is that right, Mr. Speaker?

I stood down your motion, Mr. Lewis, so I would ask you to seek unanimous consent. Mr. Lewis.