Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to make a couple of general comments with respect to the overall Housing Corporation budget. Every Member in this House is likely very concerned about the drastic cuts by the Housing Corporation to this government. Going from $43 million to $1.5 million is just totally unacceptable. I am sure all my colleagues share that concern.

I wanted to state one thing to the Minister and I have advised him of this before, as long as this government continues to try to negotiate with the provinces, directly with the federal government through the provinces, it will continue to be treated in this manner of continually having to accept a reduced amount from the federal government with respect to housing. I state this for a couple of reasons. As the Minister of Finance said this afternoon in the House, historically and politically there has always been a special relationship with Canada and the aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories, and not only with respect to health care but also with respect to housing and education because we are protected under our treaties, particularly for health and education.

I am somewhat concerned that it is the Minister's type of programming which is given to all people in the north, and that no particular programs are specifically identified for native people, that perhaps is causing concern for the federal government. The special treatment that the territorial government shares with the federal government is not being passed on to the aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories. Therefore, you can continue to take a cut in your budget, and you can continue to take less money from CMHC because they do not feel they have any obligation. That is one area which the Minister may have to review, to see this special relationship which we have always had with Canada, to ensure there are obligations. He has to ensure there are obligations, as a Minister, in order to be able to deliver programs specifically to native people.

In the other provinces and jurisdictions there are such issues as tripartite agreements which go to the Metis people and probably the reserves, where they receive extra funding to be able to build houses. I know the Minister of the Housing Corporation is reluctant to look at these tripartite agreements or these tripartite arrangements so, there is no doubt, Canada is probably feeling they do not have an obligation to continue giving the same level of funding which is required. You are either going to have to look at possibly changing your political direction or changing your political way of dealing with the federal government directly from the territorial government to the federal government as opposed to jumping in with the provinces in trying to deal with the federal government. It has been my experience and observation that as long as this government goes through the provinces we do not receive the deals we used to receive and we do not receive the commitment from Canada that we used to receive, particularly with regard to fulfilling the responsibilities towards native people, specifically under the treaties. This is one area that the Minister should consider looking at.

Prior to this new access program, under the old HAP program, a BCR was granted through the band council to a band member, and the band member held that BCR, went to the corporation and said, "I have a piece of property, can I get a HAP unit?" Generally, if they were eligible, if there was enough HAP units, they were allocated a HAP unit. The BCR was retained with the band member.

Now the corporation wants that BCR, for what purpose I do not know. They cannot use it as a security, they cannot use a BCR to place a caveat against the property if a band member gets behind in their rent because there are court cases which prevents any type of caveats against Crown lands.

I have here in front of me a sample band council resolution which was developed by the Housing Corporation which reads,

"Be it resolved that _____ (whatever band it pertains to) approves the request by the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, for permission to occupy the following land reserved for the use of the band with _____ (for whatever band it is) subject to the following terms and conditions:

1. The NWT Housing Corporation may occupy the land for a period of 25 years for the purpose of constructing and operating a house as part of its social housing program.

2. The NWT Housing Corporation may rent the house to any band member in core need.

3. The NWT Housing Corporation may sell the house and assign its rights to occupy the land to _____.

4. The right to occupy the land may not be assigned to any other person without first obtaining the band's approval by a further band council resolution."

In essence, you can digest this as a type of security document for their new programs. I am very concerned that the Housing Corporation is even drafting up these types of home ownership sample band council resolutions to the bands, in order for the bands to designate a home program for one of their band members. I discussed this issue with the Minister. The Minister does not seem to be aware of how the corporation is implementing this new program, but I have had many concerns expressed to me by the chief in my community and by band members, that access to home ownership for band members is not as easily accessible as it was under the old HAP program. In fact, the access to the new program is now called the new home ownership "axe" program instead of "access" program.

I would like to request the Minister review whether this new home access program is being properly implemented, with the intent which it was developed under. Those are my general comments, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate receiving a copy of the paper the Member has so I can see it. I have not seen that paper. I know our people are currently working with the band councils to try to solve an issue which developed on a HAP package which was delivered on Indian land. The programs and policies were not followed for the HAP package and the Housing Corporation wanted to repossess that HAP package, but the band member basically said, "Take a flying leap, because it is on band land you have no jurisdiction."

As a Minister responsible for public money, I have to ensure that our policies and programs can be implemented on any dollars we give out. I have expressed that to some chiefs already. I want to be able to deliver housing on band land and they want housing built on band land. We are all responsible people and we all want to do the same thing, so I am sure we can work out something with no problem. That is how I have directed my staff to approach it, to work with the treaty people to make sure their concerns and our concerns are met and, hopefully, we can come to some conclusion on that.

I have a copy of that paper now so I will review that as well. As the Member expressed, she asked me to review the access program to make sure it is going to be implemented fairly, and I will do that.

I wanted to make Members aware that I do not deal with the federal government through the provinces. I never have and I never will. I deal directly with the federal government. Sometimes we go to Ministers' meetings which include Ministers from all provincial jurisdictions, and they come out of those meetings with motions or whatever. That is an advantage for us too. When I have a concern with CMHC or their cuts, I deal directly with the Minister.

There are no aboriginal programs under the CMHC funding. Basically, what I have been told is that we cannot develop a program directly designated for aboriginal people.

only Metis. They, too, cannot designate money to aboriginal people. They deliver the emergency repair program and the senior citizens' repair program. That is basically what this tripartite agreement comes up with. I talked to them and met with them. I explained to them what we did in the territories and heard what they did in the south. They are going to work to try to catch up to us as to how we deliver programs.

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, I guess the statement from the Minister saying they do not deal with the federal government through the provinces is quite an inaccurate statement. Any time a Minister goes to a ministerial meeting which develops motions to give their direction to the provinces is, in fact, dealing with the federal government through the provinces, whether you want to recognize it or not. That is how it is interpreted. You are lobbying through the provinces.

You can say no all you want, but I have been to ministerial meetings and I know that is a form of a lobby group through the federal government. That is exactly why you are getting a reduced figure in your budgets every year, in as much as you shake your head and try to say no, you had better start facing reality.

Mr. Chairman, the other part I wanted to bring in was the fact that if there is no designated program specifically for native use, I believe the tripartite agreements can be formulated where the funding is granted to the native groups to be delivered for the use of native people with the support of the Minister of Housing. However, it is my understanding that there is a reluctance to give that support so access of funding can be acquired by the native people of the Northwest Territories. If the Minister really has a commitment to try to get as much housing as he can in the territories, he has to look at every possible avenue to access those fundings through the federal government. I do not believe he should only look at possible ownership of only being the one to deliver programs with regard to housing.

In respect to having to receive a 97 per cent cut for housing within the past couple of years is totally unacceptable. What has been done to express our concern to the federal government? Is it just a meeting with the Minister? Has the Minister utilized the support of the Dene Nation, Metis Nation and TFN with regard to going to Ottawa to meet with the Ministers? Has he requested the assistance of other political bodies in the north, to be able to help him negotiate with the federal government? It seems to me that the Housing Corporation is not able to get the money needed to address housing. As a result, we are drastically suffering from it. What other avenues has the Minister used in order to try to access more funding in regard to delivering housing programs in the north, recognizing that our Housing Corporation budget from CMHC was, at one time, $43 million and has gone down to $1.5 million? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the Member's information, I know she was involved at a ministerial level conference before. Her interpretation of those conferences are her's and her's alone. Reality is, if you do not go to those conferences, your throat will be slashed much quicker than it is being attempted to be. I take those conferences as another avenue of lobbying the federal government to continue to reinstate our funding. I will take every opportunity available to me to lobby the federal government. I wanted to make that clear to the Member to begin with.

I am totally convinced that the way the tripartite agreements are structured are basically set up so Metis people would have an opportunity to implement programs and policies of the government. All that is there for is to get any money. If there was a glimmer of hope that we could get more funding, I would have set it up when I first got in here, but there is no hope of that at all, so why should I waste the money that we do have setting it up? I think Metis people have a good say in our housing programs and policies right now. Look around this Assembly, we have a majority of aboriginal Members. I do not think we should waste the money which is needed to set up the agreement. I do not think it is needed in the Northwest Territories.

What has been done, to date, to reinstate funding other than myself going to Ottawa or phoning? It has been brought up at every opportunity by our government to the federal government. Our Government Leader has brought the issue up many times with the federal government and our Finance Minister. I have written letters to all native organizations informing them. I have kept all native organizations fully briefed on the issues. They have written letters all on behalf of getting the funding reinstated. I have written them back. I have been in constant contact with the native organizations, as well as our Members of Parliament. Both Members of Parliament have been very influential in lobbying the federal government. We have also appeared in front of the housing committee which was struck by the special committee of the federal government. In their report, it is in variable letters about reinstating our funding. Every opportunity I see, or that aboriginal groups have seen, they have taken advantage of it to lobby the government.

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, it seems like, and it is obvious that the opportunities have not been successful, recognizing the drastic cuts we have had in our Housing Corporation budget from CMHC. It is unfortunate that the Minister is so defensive in respect to trying to give definitions of what is the purpose of ministerial meetings. As long as he is going to try to join up with the provinces, when we have always had a political and historical type of relationship between Canada and the territorial government in addressing aboriginal people, and the provinces do not seem to care about aboriginal people from the way they treat aboriginal people with respect to housing. As long as he is going to malign himself with the provinces, next year when we talk about the Housing Corporation budget and the amount of money CMHC gives to the Housing Corporation, we probably will not even get $1 million with the trend which the Government of Canada is using.

It is ironic that the Minister can sit there and say look around this room when the majority of people in this room are aboriginal. It is ironic that there is no commitment to be able to give a specific type of housing for native people, that they are all seen as public funds and that everyone is on an equal basis with respect to accessing those funds. Any other department makes a special effort to address the needs of native people. If you look at the Department of Personnel, they have an affirmative action program to try to get the native people into the government. Mr. Chairman, it seems that some type of different thinking has to be developed to, not only try to increase our funding allotment from CMHC, but the way our housing program is being delivered, and particularly to native people with respect to access to home ownership. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. It is my understanding we had been protected up until the time a Minister did not go to a conference to protect what the Northwest Territories had, and that is where the original cuts started. I do not go to Housing Ministers' conferences and jump in bed with the provincial governments. I go there to try to protect what we have and make sure our point of view gets put across. No one is going to put our point of view across unless we are present. It does not help to not be there, so, I will continue to go there.

The way I understand it, from all the information I have, approximately 98 per cent of our programs go to aboriginal people. Unless the Member has some specific information for me, which she would like me to look into, perhaps in her riding, I do not know if there are a high percentage of non-aboriginal people who are getting the programs. I could look into it. However, from what I understand in most of the ridings, it is the aboriginal people, 97 per cent of the HAP units in 1992-93 went to aboriginal families. That has been the trend.

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Chairman, that was the trend for HAP units. However, it would be interesting to see the trend once it comes into access to home programs, the newly developed program. Mr. Chairman, I know a couple of my colleagues have asked this, but what strategy does the Minister have to address the funding cuts by CMHC? If these funding cuts get below $1.5 million what plan does he have developed?

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said earlier today, presently we have been dealing with this in the Cabinet to come out with an overall strategy. I plan on working with the advisory committee of MLAs to develop a strategy. I will continue to lobby and make the public aware of the drastic cuts the federal government is making. That is basically the direction we are taking.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister indicated that under the CMHC programs there are no specific earmarked dollars for aboriginal people or the Metis. However, am I correct in assuming that under the Department of Indian Affairs there is such a program?

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Indian Affairs has $92 million for Canada for housing on reserves.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Does the Minister of Indian Affairs provide ministerial guarantees for non-profit housing? Since this reduction, in fact, we are looking at a real shortfall in housing, and we have to look at other options. I am wondering if you are exploring that possibility through non-profit housing which the Minister might be able to provide, such as ministerial guarantees under Indian Affairs. This government is also going to have to look at providing indemnification if that happens. The only thing this does with regard to public housing, is that it does not mean that the Department of Indian Affairs suddenly has to pay the whole shot for one housing unit. All it means is it maintains that unit to make sure the power is paid, the rent is paid and the heat is paid. All of those things are done on that basis. I am wondering if you are exploring that.

Mr. Chairman, I know we just talked about borrowing $250 million to build a road to the Arctic Circle. Have we looked to the financial institutions for the possibility of getting extra money? I have a concern with regard to that. How are we addressing it? I am sure you said you are looking at a strategy, but what are some of those strategies with regard to the judiciary responsibilities to aboriginal people?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The non-profit housing program was cut 100 per cent last year. It no longer exists. That is the co-op housing program.

I have written to Minister Siddon to inform him, in no uncertain terms, how disgusted I am with him as the Minister responsible for aboriginal people in the north, to allow social housing to be cut. We will follow that up. I will be working with the advisory committee as well as our chiefs on that issue.