Good afternoon. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to announce that a demonstration of new trapping technology is available for honourable Members and the public to view in the foyer of the Legislative Assembly.

A number of respected trappers are available to discuss the new systems and answer questions. In the Northwest Territories we are committed to doing all we can to ensure trappers have the tools to continue this life-style. The display will be available today, March 9, and tomorrow March 10. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, ten years ago today, Mr. David Hamilton was appointed Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, since that time he has served with dedication, skill and efficiency, and a good sense of humour. On behalf of the government, I would like to thank Mr. Hamilton for his many contributions to this Legislature. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Madam Premier. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment Programs was created on August 4, 1992. The 1992 report, Reshaping Northern Government, outlined plans for the consolidation of culture, schools, advanced education and related programs, in order to provide new opportunities for better delivery of programs and services.

To make the most of these opportunities, and to better integrate operations, the new department has started work on a strategic plan which will shape the direction of the department for the next ten to 15 years.

The plan will improve coherence among all activities of the department, and ensure there are better links between resources and priorities, specifically between programs and employment opportunities. The goals of the plan include improving the quality of programs and services, improving access for the public, enhancing the return on our investment and improving the department's accountability.

Consultation is an integral part of the planning process. Everyone who is involved in the planning and delivery of departmental programs and services, and everyone who is served by them, has a role to play in the strategic planning process. Consultation will include: the boards and agencies who deliver programs and services; advisory boards; students; parents; key interest groups, including aboriginal organizations and community governments; Members of the Legislative Assembly, and their staff; and, the general public. Preliminary public consultation will begin in the next few weeks. I expect to be able to review a draft plan with the Assembly in the fall of this year, with the final report prepared for March, 1994.

Mr. Speaker, the future holds many challenges, but it also holds many opportunities. Through the strategic plan, I am determined that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment Programs will reshape and develop programs for delivery in communities to enable the people of the Northwest Territories to meet those challenges.

Further, Mr. Speaker, I am committed to directly consulting and involving the Members, boards and your constituents in the development of a vision and plan for education and training, which respects the cultures and languages of the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo.

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Speaker, decentralizing Arctic College into two separate college systems was one of the directions which followed from the report, Reshaping Northern Government. Today, I would like to bring the Members of the Legislative Assembly up-to-date on the college's decentralization plans.

The college is planning to establish one college system in Nunavut, with a head office located in Iqaluit, and another in the western Arctic, with its head office in Fort Smith. Decentralization should be complete by June, 1994.

The structure of the two new colleges will be streamlined. In Nunavut, the college will serve the Kitikmeot, Keewatin and Baffin regions. In the western Arctic, the college will include the Inuvik, Fort Smith and Yellowknife regions. Each college will be incorporated and directed by a board of governors.

Decentralization will not jeopardize the college's ability to deliver a high level of programming to its students. The board of governors has directed the college president to develop and monitor decentralization and its impact on programs. This plan will include a model for the two college systems, legislative changes, a description of their boards and their relationship to government, and the possibility of future agreements between the two institutions. Although there will be two separate colleges with their own programs, I will ensure links be established between them to help them run their programs efficiently.

The college's decentralization plan will be aligned with the strategic plan for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment Programs. The department's reorganization will also recognize the need to provide support for college-related programs.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the dean of this House...

---Applause

Mr. Speaker and honourable colleagues, it gives me great pleasure to rise today to extend on behalf of all Members our thanks and congratulations to Mr. David Hamilton on his tenth anniversary...

---Applause

...as the Clerk of the Northwest Territories Legislative Assembly.

On March 9, 1983, our former colleagues in this House voted on a motion to appoint Mr. Hamilton as the Clerk of this Legislative Assembly. The motion was carried unanimously. If a similar vote was held today, I am sure the result would be the same.

Hear, hear.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, as we all know, our consensus form of government presents many unique and varied challenges, and Mr. Hamilton's dedication, work ethic, common sense approach and sense of humour have helped to guide us through the good times and the bad. For this, I am sure we are all very thankful.

In addition to his duties as Clerk of the House, Mr. Hamilton has also served on the following organizations in an exemplary fashion: Elections Canada, as the chief electoral officer for the NWT; the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; and, the Canadian Association of Clerks-at-the-Table.

Mr. Hamilton, I hope your next ten years are just as productive. Not bad for a wee lad from bonny Scotland. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Laughter

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Pudluk. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, I certainly do not have the same tenure as my honourable colleague on my right, but I have had the pleasure of being in this Assembly since Mr. Hamilton's appointment and I too want to rise to pay tribute to him on this important anniversary.

He has a very difficult job, Mr. Speaker, especially in a consensus government where sometimes the Clerk performs miracles to keep the system working. David Hamilton, as we all know, for those of us who have worked in this House, is a fixer. He can tell you how to do something, never why you cannot do it. He is a superb organizer. Anyone who has been involved in elections in the Northwest Territories, and plebiscites, knows what vagaries of human foibles can cause the works to be off-track. The fact that David has managed to steer us through a number of votes, plebiscites and elections which have occurred in this vast territory over that period of time, while carrying on his job as the Clerk, is a tribute to his organizational abilities and his human skills.

I want to say, as a Member, that we do have our ups and downs, our difficulties, and David treats us all with respect and affection. He lets us talk to him and unwind, and sometimes complain. I want to express my gratitude to him for that and for his ever present humour. This is essential to survival in politics and in this Assembly.

I would like to join my colleagues and our Government Leader in thanking David for his time and wishing him an equally long tenure over the next decade. Qujannamiik.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am very concerned about the current state of the business community in Fort Simpson, Mr. Speaker. There are a number of businesses in distress. The unemployment rate is approximately 36 per cent and it will be higher if these business fail. Unfortunately, the problem is larger than just failed businesses. It affects the morale and the self-confidence of the entire community. It tends to destroy relationships among community members.

I believe a large part of the problem stems from the policy and practices of the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. In dealing with business ventures in the communities, once an initial investment has been made, there is inadequate follow through. The goal of the department in this area is to stimulate economic development through investment in business enterprises. Providing investment and capital alone is not enough. The supply of capital funds needs to be accompanied by the provision of business management support services. In fact, the Department of Economic Development and Tourism identified, in the 1993-94 Main Estimates, the departmental goal to provide more effective business management assistance to new and existing businesses. I will be watching to see if this goal is reached in my communities.

Many entrepreneurs in the communities require support, not only in starting their businesses, but in building them. Often they have highly developed skills in the technical parts of their business, but require assistance in developing business management skills.

The government needs to go beyond investing money, Mr. Speaker. If the Department of Economic Development and Tourism is going to be truly successful in moving communities towards self-sufficiency, it must follow through with its capital investments. The benefits would be many, the communities would be healthier and the return on government investment would be greater. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Fred Koe on the status of the teacher education program in the Beaufort/Delta region.

The GNWT has submitted its 1993-94 proposed budgets on February 10, 1993, under the Canada-NWT cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages in the NWT to the Secretary of State of Canada. The community teacher education proposal for the Beaufort/Delta was one of the aboriginal language development projects submitted in the GNWT proposal.

This process may be delayed and funding levels reduced due to the ten per cent cuts proposed by the federal government which were mentioned in my statement of February 24, 1993. All attempts will be made to ensure that funding is secured prior to the end of the current fiscal year. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Cournoyea. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Allooloo.

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question, asked by Mr. Pudlat, regarding environmental assessment of the great whale project.

The Department of Renewable Resources has been regularly consulting with community organizations and assisting them in participating in the environmental assessment of the proposed great whale hydroelectric project since it became an issue in 1990.

Throughout 1990 and 1991, the Department of Renewable Resources provided technical advice and helped the Sanikiluaq environmental committee prepare for the public scoping sessions which mark the first stage of the environmental assessment process.

In March, 1992, the territorial government made a presentation at the Sanikiluaq public scoping session. The presentation was developed in close consultation with the Keewatin regional health board and the Sanikiluaq environmental committee.

After the completion of the public scoping sessions a new northern organization was formed, the Nunavut environmental coalition, representing several groups in the Keewatin region. Government officials recently met with the Sanikiluaq environmental committee and Nunavut environmental coalition to begin planning for the next stage of the environmental assessment process.

We will continue to work closely with the two community groups through the remaining stages of the environmental assessment process. Our goal is to ensure the review of the proposed great whale hydroelectric project provides a complete assessment of the potential environmental health and socio-economic impacts to communities in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

I would like to take this opportunity to recognize, in the gallery, Mr. John Matthews, and with him are 12 students from the management studies class of Nunatta campus, Arctic College.

---Applause

This is their fifth annual visit to our Legislative Assembly. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Antoine.

My question is to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. The Minister knows I am very concerned about the current state of the business community in Fort Simpson. A number of businesses are in distress and there has been a real slow down in the number of new ventures. We have identified a need in Fort Simpson for provisions of business management support service. After making an initial investment in support of new business ventures, the department has not been following through. There is a gap in service delivery. The Department of Economic Development and Tourism has identified, in the 1993-94 Main Estimates, a departmental goal to provide more effective business management assistance in new and existing businesses. Will the Minister tell the Members of this Assembly how his department plans to provide more effective business management assistance to businesses? Mahsi.

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, it will vary with the problem in any particular area. One of the suggestions is that we bring in someone who is very familiar with banking, loans and amortization of loans, someone who can tell people the kind of equity and the debt ratio they should have. In other areas, we are going to ask our EDOs to go back and visit with businesses that we have assisted or businesses that may be experiencing a problem. Many problems arise because the issue gets too far down the road before it is brought to our attention. We will take some of the blame for that. We expect some of the businesses to take some of the blame in not coming to us soon enough. That will be another one of the ways we will try to help people. When we have loaned them money, or when we have contributed to their venture, we will periodically call them or perhaps sit down with them and discuss how they are doing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Government agencies in other jurisdictions have developed programs which provide management service and training to business owners. An example would be the Alberta opportunity company. There is also the federal business development bank which has a program designed to provide business management support to business owners. Has the Department of Economic Development and Tourism studied examples of such programs in other jurisdictions and assessed how they might work in the Northwest Territories? Mahsi.

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, we are well aware of the federal business development bank program because it operates in the Northwest Territories as well. Have we studied it to see whether starting a program such as that would be advantageous to the Northwest Territories? No, we have not, but I am quite prepared to go and talk to the Minister of Education to see if, in fact, it would fit into one of the programs for Arctic College. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Does the department have the necessary resources to provide business management assistance to communities where needs have been identified? Thank you.

Mr. Pollard.

Resources usually means money or PYs, Mr. Speaker. Our department is no different than any other department, we do not have enough money and we do not have enough PYs. Where we have to work with businesses more than we have in the past, we will do it out of existing budgets. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister describe the process his department uses for measuring whether they have been successful in promoting self-sufficiency in the communities? Mahsi.

Mr. Pollard.

No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Government Leader. Mr. Speaker, I know the Government Leader has been pursuing certain economic and other initiatives with the Government of Canada and with the Prime Minister. Now that the Prime Minister has announced his intention to step down, following the leadership convention in June, I wonder if the Government Leader will be discussing these initiatives with the Prime Minister. What can be done to follow through on them before he leaves office?

Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, much of the discussions regarding the Northwest Territories at the Premiers' level are ongoing discussions. We have, on the agenda, an entire multitude of things that are going on in the Northwest Territories. I realize, in many people's minds, it seems as if there is not anything going on, but there are many initiatives which require some coordination between the federal and territorial governments to realize the goals and objectives of the residents of the Northwest Territories.

One of the outstanding issues which I would like to have the Prime Minister's commitment on is the northern accord. The Prime Minister did sign the initial document. I am hoping we can overcome a couple of difficulties we have with it. As well, I intend to talk about the health billing dispute we have with them in regard to our court action and some of the concerns we have involving health billing and the federal government's responsibility. I would hope that we would have time to discuss a Nunavut claim to see if he can give some assurance that the integrity of the claim can be realized before the change of government. As well, we have an outstanding issue of our formula funding and how that is arranged with them. We have the ongoing issue of how to encourage economic develop in the Northwest Territories, so we will also be discussing the Izok Lake proposal and the transportation infrastructure in the Northwest Territories. Those are the immediate topics we have for discussion purposes. We would like to get a commitment to conclude a few of those items before the Prime Minister retires from office. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, I take it from the honourable Government Leader's response that she has made arrangements to meet with the Prime Minister before he leaves office. Has a firm date been set for a meeting with the Prime Minister? Thank you.

Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, the meeting with the Prime Minister is set for Thursday, March 11, 1993, at 5:00 pm. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the honourable Minister for Health and Social Services.

On February 26, 1993, I asked the Minister the following question. Would the Minister look into the possibility of getting a group home for the mentally handicapped in Gjoa Haven? She indicated that a group home to be located in Gjoa Have was identified for 1988 and 1989. Subsequent inquiries revealed that there was no demand. Mr. Speaker, I went to Gjoa Haven in February, 1993, with the Honourable Nellie Cournoyea, and met with the hamlet council. The need for a group home for the mentally handicapped was one of the requests made by the hamlet of Gjoa Haven. I wonder if the Minister would seriously look into the possibility of building a group home in Gjoa Haven for the Kitikmeot region? Thank you.

Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This decision was made prior to my appointment to the department. I will look further into what other initiatives the previous Minister of Social Services had made and I will provide the Member with the information he requires. Possibly we could have a meeting on this matter. Thank you.

Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Koe.

What We Heard

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say a few words about what we heard. During our five days in the region people told us many things. Some of the issues echoed those we had heard in the Keewatin. Other concerns expressed were unique to the area. Underlying many comments was a central theme: people want more local resources, more access to services, more skills, more training and support for local staff and, especially, more local control over the services provided to community members to help them meet their personal needs.

On the other hand, we heard many calls for the Government of the Northwest Territories "to do something" about many things. It was as if some saw the territorial government as the only party who could take action to address many of the concerns raised. This was the case even when the mandate and opportunity was already there for the issues to be resolved locally. Much of what people saw as being wrong did not meet government policy or program changes, just local community action.

An example of this centred around concerns in one community about access to health services. Some residents noted the lack of reliable transportation to the health centre. They also told us their concerns with the current sick clinic schedule. They looked to our committee for resolution of these concerns. In a meeting with local health personnel we heard of their frustration that they could not get out into the community to liaise with local officials and gain community input. The staff wished for the establishment of a local health committee that could help them plan clinic hours and clarify other local needs and priorities.

Both residents and local service providers wanted the same thing. Neither group appeared to realize this however, because there was no communication between them. To resolve the issues facing them in their community, they need to start talking to each other. With some time to sit and talk together, the two groups will probably discover that they do want the same things. To allow that to happen, staff will need time away from their service provision duties and residents may need some encouragement to share their concerns with staff. Here, perhaps, the Government of the Northwest Territories could help by providing relief staff or skills training for local health committee volunteers. Such basic support for efforts to build on local strengths and abilities can play an important role in preparing communities for taking on more responsibilities in both health and social service delivery.

I would like to quote from Jim Antoine, MLA, "There is a real need to develop the communities to a level where they are able to even start thinking or talking about taking over programs and services."

A complicating factor is that there is not much ongoing support available to develop community leadership skills. Training in community development used to be part of the preparation for settlement and band councillors and administrators. Workshops on an approach to community development called "popular education" were offered through the Department of Health. They are no longer being offered. At Arctic College, out of a curriculum of 20 courses, social work students now take two courses in community development. Given this situation, there is little opportunity for training to help empower community members and to support them in their efforts to take more control over local services.

As far as we are aware, there is currently only one community development worker now doing such work. This lone worker is employed by the Status of Women Council and works with women's groups. Some northern consultants also have strong community development skills but few communities have the resources to pay for these services.

What follows is an overview of the major issues that were raised during our consultation. The issues are arranged according to the subject or to the target group to which they primarily apply.

Health Care Delivery

Improved access to services and more local control over those services were the most common issues raised in the area of health care delivery. There were many calls for the establishment of a regional health board. Concerns were strongly expressed that people did not feel as if they had meaningful input into the decisions being made about their health care. Some speakers did not believe the current regional health planning initiatives would be successful. They saw it as a process imposed by the department that was not accepted by the residents.

In Fort Simpson we clearly heard that residents did not want any reduction in their access to health services. Some called for improved and expanded services. We heard constructive suggestions about how existing community resources could be restructured so as to better meet local needs for services like extended care and home care services. Such suggestions may be of great help to the community health working group grappling with these issues, if they first deal with the issue of the credibility of the process.

In Hay River and elsewhere there were concerns expressed that the composition of the H H Williams hospital board did not reflect the profile of the population that it served. Some expressed strong concerns that the religious beliefs of the sponsoring body and of some staff meant that women have been denied abortion or birth control related services.

Various groups told us that they did not feel that they treated fairly by the health care system because of their age or ethnic background. Specific cases were presented to us where individuals were misdiagnosed or otherwise poorly served by the system.

People in small communities wanted more ability to respond to local health emergencies. They called for better communication to outside resources and for stronger pain medication to be available while they waited for help to arrive. People in all communities wanted access to a wider range of health services, including traditional health. We were told of cases of staff "jigging" the books to cover the costs of sending someone to a traditional healer. There were calls for more and legitimate access to such traditional methods of health care.

Participants wanted more resources spent on prevention. Both health care providers and service users called for more prevention, but we sometimes got the feeling that each party thought that the other group did not support it.

Residents wanted to reduce the turnover of medical staff. Home care was also supported.

This range of concerns about health care delivery suggest that the current health planning efforts in the region will be a challenging process.

HIV/AIDS

Some speakers expressed strong fear about getting AIDS. They wanted to know who had AIDS so they could take steps to avoid getting it. Some speakers wanted regional statistics released on people who are HIV positive:

"It will tell us and our children that this thing is very near us," helping make the issue more real and making the people more aware and more careful.

Others feared that they may be HIV positive but were afraid to get tested locally in case word got out that they were doing so. Some youth said that they did not have enough information on the disease. Social service workers raised questions about who could give permission for testing of children in foster care. They also called for training about AIDS and about how to work effectively and safely with HIV positive clients.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to turn over the next portion to my colleague, Dennis Patterson.

Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Elders

One general observation about our meetings with elders was just how pleased they were that someone was interested in their situation. We got the feeling they seldom have a chance to talk about their needs and concerns.

There are growing numbers of elders in the region. To ensure that their needs are taken care of, planning is needed. Home care is seen as a preferred method of supporting elders who want to continue to live independently. Supporters noted that it is cost-effective compared to institutional care and results in better quality of life for elders. There were calls for the expansion of home care service in Hay River and for its establishment in Fort Simpson.

Concerns were expressed that current line-by-line funding arrangements allowed little flexibility to hospitals which also operate home care services. They cannot transfer funds to home care if demand warrants. As well, they may find themselves in a conflict of interest in such a situation. It was noted that if there are empty beds in the hospital, the institution may be hard pressed, from a financial point of view, to encourage care of patients in their own homes.

When institutional care is required, speakers called for regional access to level III and IV care. Elders living in the lodge in Fort Providence had ideas as to how their situation could be improved, pointing out some repairs needed in their facility. The elders asked that their smokehouse be moved and a wood stove installed in it, so they would be able to use it to prepare hides and to cook their own food when the weather was nice. There were calls to free up more of the staff's time to care for elders and for more collective preparation of food as is done in Rae. Elders we visited in the Hay River facility wanted more recreational activities and more field trips. Woodland Manor staff need funds to operated their donated van so they can take their residents out into the community.

Lodge residents wanted more country food to eat. Lodge staff said that they wanted to provide it but that there were some difficulties. Precautions need to be taken to ensure that the meat is safe. For example, we were told that wild meat had to be brought from Yellowknife as there is no way to get wild meat inspected or processed locally in an approved facility.

It was also pointed out that institutional beds need to be available to offer respite care for elders and others being looked after by family members. This would give such family care givers an occasional break and help prevent burnout and possible subsequent institutionalization of the elder. Calls were made for training to be offered to family members on how to take of elderly or disabled family members at home.

Many elders wanted more flexible access to health care. House calls were mentioned as one way to deal with the problems they encountered in getting to medical appointments. Many elders required transportation to medical and other appointments in order to maintain their independence. Some wondered why GNWT vehicles could not be made available to provide such transportation.

Elders also commented, as did others, about turnover of medical staff. One commented that she was tired of being a guinea pig for newly graduated doctors. There were suggestions that turnover played some role in cases of misdiagnosis of diseases such as cancer because medical personnel did not have the chance to get to know their patients. Cross-cultural training and community orientation were recommended for new medical practitioners. One person suggested that local health committee members could play an important role in this regard.

As we heard in the Keewatin, people had concerns about medevacs of elders. They wanted better briefing for patients and their escorts before the trip. They wanted to be sure that the escort could interpret for the elder and was assertive in dealing with medical personnel so that the patient clearly understood what was being said or done to him or her.

There were complaints about the seniors' wood subsidy. People told us that five cords were not enough to heat elders' homes throughout the entire winter. We were told that some elders left their homes and had to move in with relatives when the wood ran out. Such comments suggest that there is significant misunderstanding about the intent of this subsidy program.

If the wood subsidy is not intended to meet all the fuel needs for elders living in their own homes, then that fact needs to be clarified for recipients and their families and communities. Then if elders need more fuel, other ways could be found to gather the additional wood that they need to make it through the heating season.

Children And Youth

Young people who spoke to us shared a common concern that there were not enough constructive and fun things to do in their communities. They spoke of barriers that prevented them from enjoying activities, such as lack of public transportation or the costs of recreational programs. In each community youth called for a safe place that they could hang out. Most agreed that alcohol was readily available and that many weekend activities involved drinking.

Youth were concerned about others too. They wanted to be sure that single parents get the child care they need in order to be able to finish school and that victims of family violence have local safe shelters to which they can go.

Some wanted more information about all aspects of sexuality. They wanted more than just pamphlets; they wanted to talk to someone. Some who had gone through a week-long workshop on the topic spoke very highly of their experience and wanted more of these types of forums

Both children and adults raised concerns about child welfare. It was suggested that there was a need for more prevention measures such as family support. People who tell Social Services about children who need help should be told what action has been taken to investigate their complaint. To ensure quality care for a child while in the care of the department, some suggested that foster parents need to be given more training and support. This was echoed by staff who work with foster parents.

One child abuse counsellor told us, "We spend lots of money responding to the symptoms of (child sexual) abuse such as alcohol addiction but little on the root cause."

People pointed out that there were not enough services available to child sexual abuse victims or offenders. There was a call to treat offenders while they are in jail and afterwards so they can start to heal and not continue to offend. Resources are needed to pay for specialized counselling services to help victims heal. Staff expressed frustration that sometimes they needed to mask the abuse issues and label a client's problem as one of addiction to get the money to send the client for the help he or she needed.

Parents and professionals told us of the lack of services and funding for young people with special needs. We heard how the Deh Cho divisional board of education overspends its special needs budget allocation in trying to meet the needs of students. Despite this additional expenditure, parents told us that their children are still not getting services such as speech therapy that they need. We heard that the needs in the NWT for special services and support for students are 50 to 100 per cent higher than in other jurisdictions in Canada. In one school in the region, about 50 per cent of the students have special needs. There was also concern that assessments on children with special needs are often done in the south and the resulting recommendations cannot be carried out in some communities or are at odds with the NWT policy on inclusive schooling.

Some young people with special needs fall through the cracks. One young adult with a spinal cord injury is effectively trapped in his home. This is due partly to the cold weather and his health. As well, the back for his new electric wheelchair has been missing ever since he returned from picking the wheelchair up in Edmonton over six months ago. The back was to have been shipped two days later, but is still apparently on back order. Without this part, his mobility is restricted as he only has use of his manual wheelchair. His mobility is further impaired by a shortage of drivers and some winter related limitations of the local wheelchair van. Even if transportation is available, there are few buildings in his community that are wheelchair accessible. Finally, his rehabilitation is stalled and his condition is deteriorating to some degree due to lack of physiotherapy services.

A second example involved a young person whose treatment program in the south was shut down in a GNWT cost-cutting move. The youth was brought back to his community where some specialized services that he needs are not available. The youth's parents wondered what happened to the money saved by closing down the southern treatment program. They did not see evidence that it had been invested in providing appropriate services to people with special needs in their community.

The committee supports repatriating northerners with special needs from southern institutions where appropriate, and keeping the money spent on their care in the north. People should not be moved back just to cut costs, however, and then left at home without needed support and treatment services. We need to ensure that the person will at least maintain a comparable quality of life. Respite care is clearly an important service where family members are looking after the person at home.

The need for regional youth treatment services was raised as an issue. We heard of regional plans to act on this and offer such services on a pilot basis next summer.

Problems that arise with custom adoptions came up more than once. Situations were related where various benefits including band membership and child tax benefit were denied to children because the adoption paperwork had not been done.

Mr. Speaker, I would now like to turn the next part of this report over to my colleague, Mr. John Ningark. Thank you.

Mr. Ningark.

Alcohol And Drugs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My section is alcohol and drugs. Two main issues emerged in the area of alcohol and drugs. The first was the need for more money to pay for treatment. Secondly, there were demands for more attention to be paid to the lasting effects that drinking can have on children born to women who drink while they are pregnant.

People involved in the care and treatment of children suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) or fetal alcohol effects (FAE) spoke very strongly about their concerns for these children. Current estimates are that 25 per cent of children in the region are FAS and FAE affected. One speaker called for more study of this problem to more accurately determine its extent and to explore the effects it has on the children and their families. Others were concerned about the impact that FAE and FAS affected children have on the school, health and social services.

To reduce the incidence of FAS, there were calls for tough measures including laying charges of criminal negligence against women who drink while pregnant. Others see such punitive action as "blaming the victim." In a broader view, to be effective in reducing the incidence of FAS, we were advised to look beyond the drinking and respond to the underlying issues that contribute to women drinking during pregnancy.

We were told that treatment money usually runs out in December of each fiscal year resulting in treatment being delayed or denied. People wanted to be sure that there would be regional input into the Hay River treatment centre program and that there would be Slavey speaking counsellors there. They wanted appropriate child care to be available for parents seeking treatment. Alternatively, people suggested offering family treatment which involved the children.

After completion of any treatment program, many stressed the importance of aftercare being available in the recovering person's home community to help support their sobriety. They also stressed that the aftercare counsellors had to earn the trust of their clients. Speakers told us they could earn this by keeping confidentiality and by displaying their counselling skills. Some called for more outreach activities to be undertaken by local A and D programs such as weekend activities for children.

People supported the idea of a mobile treatment team to work out of the Hay River centre, offering a thirty day program in people's own communities.

Social Assistance

Just as in the Keewatin, the primary concern expressed about social assistance is that the food allowance is not adequate enough to ensure that people can properly feed their families. In our third interim report, the committee recommended an immediate increase in the food allowance. We pointed out that the present food allowance does not come close, in any region of the NWT, to the cost of purchasing a nutritional supply of food. Since the government has not adequately responded to this recommendation, it was not surprising to again hear concern expressed about the level of the food allowance.

Other limitations brought to our attention included the perceived lack of benefits available to relatives, other than natural parents, who are raising children. Some speakers thought that mothers with custody of their children are required to seek maintenance from the father as a condition of their assistance. This is not a program requirement. These concerns and misunderstandings suggest that more education of clients about program benefits may help decrease the frustration that some feel.

People wanted more resources allocated to work projects or retraining initiatives.

Mr. Speaker, I will now give the report to Mr. Dent.

Mr. Dent.

Front Line Workers

The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Report 12-12(3), Special Committee on Health and Social Services Interim Report No. 4 will be moved into committee of the whole. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. The Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions has an interim report on the Northwest Territories Power Corporation.

The Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions, under the authority given to it by this House, has been reviewing matters related to the Northwest Territories Power Corporation.

Throughout the review process, the standing committee has been focusing on the following aspects: the mandate, organization structure and operations of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation; the composition and duties of the corporation's board of directors and senior management; working relationships between the board of directors and the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Power Corporation; statutory and procedural relations between the power corporation and the Northwest Territories Public Utilities Board; pertinent legislation, regulations and policy; current physical holdings, capital financing and the capital upgrade program; research, evaluation and development policy at the power corporation; models and procedures for community consultation and input; policies and procedures for effecting positive customer relations; and, principles and proposed approaches related to privatization of the Power Corporation.

The Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions held initial public hearings in Yellowknife on November 25, 1992. At that time the standing committee invited the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Power Corporation, the Honourable Nellie Cournoyea, and senior corporation officials to appear as witnesses. Witness representation was also received from the Department of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources. The chairperson of the Public Utilities Board appeared before the standing committee as a witness, as well.

A subcommittee held public hearings on February 2, 1993, in Inuvik. These focused on future planning activities for the Power Corporation and, specifically, on policies established or research, evaluation and development. The Minister responsible for the Power Corporation attended as a witness, along with the chairperson of the board of directors and several senior officials. Witnesses representing the Union of Northern Workers also presented a brief commentary on the proposed privatization of the Power Corporation.

A second subcommittee held further open meetings and round table discussions in Cape Dorset on February 2, 1993, to focus on community input processes and customer relations policy. The hamlet council and other key stakeholders were represented at discussion sessions.

Public hearings were also held before the second subcommittee in Iqaluit on February 4, 1993, to consider current physical holdings and the capital planning process. Senior corporation officials appeared as witnesses during those public hearings. Representation was also made by the Union of Northern Workers at the Iqaluit hearings, again on the subject of privatization. The standing committee also heard from several other public witnesses, as well.

In addition, Members of the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions have also been provided with an opportunity to tour power plant facilities in Iqaluit, Inuvik, Cape Dorset and Lake Harbour. This has provided an invaluable perspective on the scope and technical challenges of operations within the Power Corporation. It has also conveyed an understanding of the differences which exist between communities with respect to the age and technology of their power plants.

Plans had also been made for a subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions to hold public consultations in Tuktoyaktuk and Aklavik. The standing committee very much regrets the fact that inclement weather prevented air travel and resulted in the cancellation of these meetings. Members look forward to visiting those communities should the opportunity arise on a future occasion.

The standing committee wishes to acknowledge the cooperation and thoughtful input received from witnesses during all public hearings and consultations.

This input, as well as the examination of planning documents, policy directives and statistics provided by corporation officials, will form the basis for future comments and recommendations arising from the standing committee's review. The committee will meet during the summer months for further public hearings and to examine the additional issues arising from information provided to date.

In addition to continuing its review of issues raised during initial hearings, further areas for committee examination include, but are not limited to: the record of return on shareholders' equity; the allocation of funds and human resources to support corporate administrative requirements; the framework for corporate decision-making; corporate activities to encourage and support the use of northern labour, materials and resources; contracting and purchasing policies and performance within the Power Corporation; the nature of the employee work environment; Power Corporation initiatives aimed at the introduction of cost-effective alternate energy sources; strategies undertaken by the Power Corporation to encourage energy conservation; levels of responsibility demonstrated by the Power Corporation in addressing environmental issues; accountability mechanisms, including a further review of the statutory authorities of the Public Utilities Board, the Minister, the Cabinet and the Legislative Assembly; relations between the Power Corporation and non-government utilities in the Northwest Territories; the potential for agreements with other jurisdictions, including potential for the sale of energy outside the Northwest Territories; rationale, principles and proposed approaches related to the privatization of the Power Corporation; and, larger issues related to the impact of the Power Corporation on corporate and consumer affairs in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions wishes to acknowledge the excellent cooperation and assistance received to date from the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Power Corporation and her officials, as well as from the Public Utilities Board.

The standing committee looks forward to completing its review and is confident that the current process will result in a constructive and well-documented final report.

Mr. Speaker, that concludes the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions' interim report on the Northwest Territories Power Corporation.

Motion To Receive And Adopt Committee Report 13-12(3)

Therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that the interim report on the Northwest Territories Power Corporation be received and adopted. Mahsi.

Motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Mr. Dent.

Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Tabled Document 2-12(3), The Justice House - Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality; Tabled Document 3-12(3), Report of the Commission for Constitutional Development; Tabled Document 49-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy; Bill 5, An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act; Bill 17, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94; Minister's Statement 34-12(3), Long-Term Staff Housing Strategy; Committee Report 10-12(3), Report on Tabled Document 21-12(3): Payroll Tax Act; Committee Report 11-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Main Estimates, appearance by members of the commission for constitutional development, with Mr. Ningark in the chair.

Thank you. The committee will now come to order. When we concluded yesterday, we were on Bill 17, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94, and the chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance had just concluded his opening remarks on the Department of Transportation. What is the wish of the committee? Do we have the concurrence of the committee that we continue with the Department of Transportation?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Are there any general comments? We will take a 15 minute break and then come back.

---SHORT RECESS

This committee will come to order. Mr. Todd, before we proceed with general comments do you wish to bring in your witnesses?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses.

Mr. Todd, for the record can you please introduce the witnesses.

Department Of Transportation

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Gamble, deputy minister, Department of Transportation and Mr. Winsor, director of finance.

Thank you. We are on page 09-8. Are there any general comments? Mr. Gargan.

General Comments

Mr. Chairman, I do not have a written submission. However, I do have some observations with regard to this department. Mr. Chairman, I purchased a vehicle in August. To date, it has 30,000 miles on it. I wanted to mention that even though we have patrols done by the department, we do not seem to see those vehicles on the highway system. With the conditions of the highways steadily improving, we have also seen a steady increase in the speed limits of the trucks who travel the highway. In most cases, Mr. Chairman, I stop completely when I see a large truck approaching, for my own safety. We do not see many patrols of the highways with regard to safety. What exactly are we spending on highway patrols?

Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that we spend somewhere in the region of $216,000 on highway patrols at the present time.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When the program first started a couple of years ago, there were 15 traffic tickets given out. For last year and the year before, how many traffic tickets were given out? Has it increased at all? Has it reduced? What is the trend?

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

The patrol operations in 1992 resulted in 60 summary offenses under the Motor Vehicles Act for speeding. Most of these tickets were issued to drivers travelling 30 clicks per hour or more over the posted speed limit. Patrollers gave out 65 warnings to trucks under the large vehicle control regulations and issued 33 summary offence tickets. The offenses were mainly for axle weight and vehicle dimension infractions. That is for 1992. I do not have the figures for 1990 or 1991, but I can provide them to the honourable Member, either today or tomorrow. Whether it is a trend moving in that direction, being a new Minister, I am not sure. Those are the statistics for 1992.

Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister if his department has ever looked at the feasibility or the possibility of restricting truckers on our highway system on certain days. The largest volume of traffic that travels south is from Yellowknife. I am sure as far as the insurance companies are concerned, much of the insurance coverage deals with windshields and rock damage. I no longer buy windshield insurance because it costs more than the windshield itself. I am sure this is one of the biggest problems on our highway system. I have asked our research people to look at what other jurisdictions have restrictions with regard to the transportation of large vehicles. Is this something which you are looking at?

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, I understand that this issue has been raised before. The department has been looking at it since 1992 when Mrs. Marie-Jewell raised the issue. The department has checked with other provincial jurisdictions. It is our understanding that no jurisdiction in Canada, at the present time, prohibits the movement of tractor-trailer transports on Sundays or on the weekend, as I think the honourable Member is perhaps suggesting. The province of Ontario, at one time, had a Sunday-ban on what they called the Lord's Day Act. The ban was struck down in 1984 on constitutional grounds and the province of Ontario has made no attempt to reintroduce the ban. It is the position of the department, that given the amount of long distance hauling in the north, a Sunday or a weekend restriction on truck traffic would be very disruptive in the scheduling of deliveries. At this time, from the work we have done, there is no jurisdiction in Canada that restricts this. The road system is slightly different, I suspect, in most of the provinces because it is hard-topped. I suspect the difficulties which are encountered in our highways are significantly different than the QEW in Ontario or the Cabot Trail in Nova Scotia. However, there is no legislation as such that would restrict or ban major transportation.

Mr. Gargan.

One of the other difficulties which we have in the north is with regard to the width of our highways. I think most of the highways are 16 feet wide. They are not wide, but we still allow wide vehicles on our system. Flashing lights are required on any vehicle which is six feet wide. In other jurisdictions, if the vehicle is too wide, to a certain footage, it is not allowed on the highway system. Why do we allow this to

happen in the north when our roads are much narrower than in southern jurisdictions?

Mr. Todd.

The long-term objective of the department is to bring the width and standard of the roads up to the national safety code. We were an active participant in that over the last four or five years. Now we have taken over the full jurisdiction for looking after that. I am told, where there are extraordinary circumstances, such as large trucks with extraordinary size loads, permission is given for these loads to travel on our roads under certain restrictions. For example, with some kind of escort, et cetera. In an ideal world, we would have the kinds of roads we need or we would acquire the quality of roads we would need. However, that is not the case at the present time. In looking at some of the road works that have been going on in the past, and what looks like what is going to go on in the future, those kinds of concerns that you raised with respect to width and bends, et cetera, are all being looked at. Every effort is being made by the department, particularly in engineering, to bring the highways up to grade and to meet the kind of standards so there will be a limited amount of restrictions with respect to trucking.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Minister.

If I may, I would like to have the opportunity to respond to Mr. Whitford's concerns. With respect to, as Mr. Gargan pointed out earlier, the size of vehicles and vehicles being overweight, it is important to the overweight and oversize vehicles on the highway we try to do that under restricted conditions, if they cannot make the trucks smaller based upon the load. If these conditions are not being met, then perhaps we need more highway patrols, not less. That is something we will have to take a look at.

With respect to inspections, I wish to assure Mr. Whitford that there will be no reductions in the inspections that are currently taking place. In fact, if the traffic increases, we have to look at increasing inspections.

It is important to point out that over 25 per cent of traffic on the highways is big truck traffic. I am told that 5.4 per cent of the accidents are big truck traffic. So, that is an important statistic.

I am not a road expert. I have lived in the eastern Arctic for the past 27 years and the only roads we have are usually three-wheel Honda roads. With respect to water on the roads, it is my understanding that technically that has to be done when they are doing the blading or the grading of the highways. I am told the engineers say we have to soak the surface of the road.

The last point which Mr. Whitford brought up is with respect to the scenic value of building highways. In an ideal world, we would all like to do that. However, I would like to point out that we have roughly $19 million per year to build roads. It costs somewhere in the region of $600,000 per kilometre in the Yellowknife area to build a road, and about $250,000 to $300,000 in the Fort Smith area. So, there are some limitations and the whole approach to highways is what is the most cost-effective way we can do them. We have severe limitations in terms of the capital expenditures. That is a fact, that is not fiction. Every effort is made and I understand it has been done in the past. I have not travelled the highway since 1968, but I intend to do it this summer. I understand that it has been done in the past and we will certainly make every effort in the future, but within the confines of the financial situation which we are in. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Again, I do not want to be too defensive, but the reality is you have 22,000 kilometres of road in the Northwest Territories. I am told the replacement value would be $1 billion and I have $19 million. There is a limitation to what we can do, that is all I am trying to say. As I said in my opening remarks yesterday, we are going to try to endeavour to do the best we can with the limited resources we have. Yes, we should be looking at what the cost is. It is no different than looking at a building, what is the cost of renovating a house versus building a new one? If there is a situation where it is cheaper or more cost-effective to build new roads, that is what we would do. The bottom line is, and as everyone is well aware, it costs an enormous amount of money to build one kilometre whether it is in the Yellowknife shield or in the Fort Smith area. We are severely restricted by the amount of capital dollars that we currently have in place.

As I stated in my opening remarks, it is certainly my intention to bring the NWT transportation strategy up to 1993 conditions and, hopefully, develop it as a negotiating package for discussions with the federal government. If there is any chance of an opportunity to negotiate a common approach to the building of roads with a joint initiative between federal and territorial funding, if that was to come about, that would make a significant difference to what we could accomplish.

Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

My understanding of "vision" in Inuktitut means looking ahead. Basically, that is what I am trying to do. When we look at the transportation strategy which was done in 1989 by the former Minister, Mr. Wray, it was an extremely valuable exercise and it was a very costly one. All I am suggesting is that we just bring it up to 1993 realities. I feel it was somewhat unrealistic in some of the objectives it was trying to accomplish. When they used the word "vision" I think they were looking 20 years down the road. I am not suggesting for one minute that that is something we should not be trying to look ahead to, however, we have to look at the current fiscal realities of the federal government. This NWT transportation strategy was clearly designed as a joint initiative which would be jointly funded by both the territorial and federal governments. I believe, at the time, it was somewhere around $500 million over a ten year period where both the territorial and federal governments would contribute $25 million each.

What I am suggesting in the update of this strategy is to take what we have and quickly bring it up to date. Most of it can be done in-house. Bring about some more accurate estimates of the costs of doing some of the things which have to be done, and with a minimal amount of resources which I understand are going to be done from within, I think we can bring a realistic, achievable document that shows us in the next five or ten years what we can realistically accomplish that can continue to give us the 20 year vision that was previously there in an ideal world. The bottom line in any transportation initiative, whatever we do, requires significant federal government financial contributions.

What I am trying to accomplish over the next two or three months is a document which I can take to whoever the new federal government is going to be and try to negotiate and follow-up on what previous Ministers of Transportation have already done. Whether or not we can accomplish that, I do not know, but we certainly need to have a document which says this is what we think we can realistically accomplish. We need more accurate financial projections of what it is going to cost. More importantly, to me anyway, I need to make sure the update is reflective of this House. As I said earlier, the ordinary Members and the stakeholders will be involved in this update. Thank you. It will not be a costly exercise.

Thank you. Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the previous thrust of the transportation strategy was into major road development in the Mackenzie Valley and in the western Arctic. There was some reference to Keewatin and highways, which I think was unrealistic. There is clearly a thrust within the overall NWT strategy to look at marine infrastructure, particularly in the eastern Arctic, because it is severely lacking that. So in simple terms, that is where the basic thrust was. The need for some small in-community roads that lead to fishing holes that could be used both locally and for tourist operations, whether it would be the Sylvia Grinnel in Iqaluit or Diana River in Rankin Inlet, et cetera, has been raised on a number of occasions by the chairman. What I have asked the department to do is take a hard look at that.

There is some money that was previously allocated in the budget under previous Ministers, but I am not sure it was adequate. I think we have to give some consideration to what we might call "recreational/community road infrastructure." I do not have any definitive numbers here because it would be part of the capital process. The determination of whether it is a priority within the capital process would be by the municipalities, but certainly as a department we are looking at it. As part of the overall NWT strategy, we are looking at the larger highway in the Mackenzie Valley, marine transportation, et cetera. We are talking significant dollars here.

General comments. Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

If I can address the first question which was asked. I would like to go back to the community roads. We are in the process of, based upon the initiative taken and the request taken by the Standing Committee on Finance, trying to draft a community type agreement with municipalities as to how these roads can be built, et cetera. It is important to clear that up. I agree with the honourable Member and I appreciate his comments that there should be more money in that particular function and I will look forward to his support when I bring it forward in the standing committee, which I am sure I will get.

On the issue of the spills and containment, I understand after the situation which took place at the ferry in the Fort Providence area, that the department has taken steps to improve the equipment and, in particular, the training with respect to oil spills. They have also increased the regulations to ensure the carriers meet with the compliancies of the act. I will be bringing forward, probably this week or next week, the annual report for 1992 on the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act. This will spell out some of the changes which are necessary and the procedures that will take place to avoid the situation which took place earlier last year. There is a recognition of the importance in the environment. With the enormity of the issues in Scotland and in Alaska over the last two or three years, there is clearly a recognition by this department and this government that while our problems maybe small ones, they could be big ones, and therefore we have to make sure we have the proper rules and compliance in place. I am confident we are moving in that direction. There is no question, as Mr. Whitford has said, we certainly need to improve upon our fast reaction equipment and training and that is what we are endeavouring to do at the present time.

It is my understanding, that there has been an improvement in the equipment availability at the ferry and also some additional training done with the staff or the contractors who run that operation.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is all well and good to talk about what our government can do with regard to environmental protection and marine infrastructure, but I think the federal government has been conspicuous by its absence in some respects in the Northwest Territories. I am particularly referring to areas such as the small crafts harbours program of the Government of Canada, the Ministry of Transport, which has spent tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on small harbour improvement in the most unlikely places, such as freshwater lakes where there is primarily recreational use. I think it has been very politically appealing to the Government of Canada. Unfortunately, by and large they have overlooked the Northwest Territories, where our people are dependent upon the marine economy where the water is a critical transportation system and also a critical means of subsistence harvesting. All of which I know the Minister understands.

I would like to ask what headway has been made with getting the federal government, through the small crafts harbours program, to join with our government in providing for these tremendous needs that we have for marine infrastructure? Have there been any successes to date and will it be an area the Minister will be pursuing? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, let me assure the honourable Member we are. I could say there is ongoing discussions and continuing dialogue but that sounds like a load of bureaucratic mumbo jumbo. The reality is that everyone is experiencing tough financial times. We have to be able to argue our point aggressively to seek our share of the pie. With respect to the small crafts harbours program, as the honourable Member knows, I am a strong advocate of that, it does bring about some support for the small fishermen. Discussions were under way last week with the Coast Guard in Yellowknife by the deputy minister in an effort to try and get

them to see why this infrastructure is important to fishermen and people who use it as tour operators.

To date, to be candid, we have not been very successful. As far as I can determine, my deputy tells me that one of the successes we have had is the Pelly Bay situation, where the hydrographic work was done there. We have upgraded two barge landing sites in Spence Bay and Gjoa Haven. The Coast Guard paid for these expenditures. I want to assure the honourable Member that I intend to address this particular financial expenditure again. We will have continued discussions with Transport Canada and the Coast Guard, but I also want to make it part of the transportation update and strategy because it was not as well laid out and explained, when I read the strategy, as I would have liked. I want to assure him that this kind of infrastructure is a priority in my eyes, particularly as it relates to the more isolated communities that are not on highways and road systems. Our success to date has not been particularly satisfying. Hopefully, in negotiations and in discussions with the appropriate political people, we will be more successful.