This is page numbers 1409 - 1492 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was tax.

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Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1483

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The assistant deputy minister, Education, Culture and Employment Programs, Mr. Conrad Pilon.

In terms of the question which was asked by Mr. Lewis, I will be very specific about some of the proposals and the changes which are, in fact, occurring. I do not want people to get the impression that this process just started when I became the Minister, Mr. Chairman. This issue of the student financial assistance budget reduction began as a result of the Strength at Two Levels report. In that particular report there was a suggestion that we review the student financial assistance program to identify administrative measures which could be implemented to improve efficiencies. As a result, on February 19, 1992 the document titled Reshaping Northern Government indicated that there were a number of ways in which program saving and reductions could be achieved by increased user pay through means testing, reduced benefits, or eligibility restrictions. They were specific changes which were recommended to the student financial assistance program. In June, 1992, the OPPLAN was presented which dealt with the department considering restructuring, that was one of the issues, of restructuring the manner in which we provided our supplementary grants benefits, similar to DIAND's program. Secondly, whether or not we would continue the practice of providing travel assistance through warrants rather than cash advances.

Further, there was a suggestion at that particular time for the student financial assistance right to be amended to delete the book allowance for non-native students, who receive a basic grant for 1992-93. On August 27, 1992, the then Minister, Mr. Arvaluk, appeared in front of the Standing Committee on Finance. In his opening remarks the Minister proposed that student grants be changed to provide benefits similar to federal programs. He, in fact, suggested the other changes as well. The Minister also said that the proposed 1992-93 reductions, and this was last year, would be delayed for one year, and this is the upcoming year.

On September 22, the Minister also presented the reductions to the Legislative Assembly but it, in fact, indicated they would be delayed. As a result of that, I am the Minister who is now coming forward with those changes from those comments which were made.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say that as a result of some of the methods by which we are utilizing the travel warrants rather than cash advances were for Christmas and year end travel. It is our intention to save the government $200,000. As a result of deleting the book allowance, we are considering saving another $98,000. As a result of restructuring the supplementary grant program to match the allowances to match it with Indian Affairs and Northern Development, we anticipate saving this government some $300,000. The result will be $589,000 of savings if we proceed.

I would also like to indicate to the honourable Member that despite the fact that we are reducing the book allowances, we are prepared and have agreed that we will provide for a needs assessed loan for those students who are in need. We will provide the loan. In those cases where it is clear both for books and supplies that are required for post-secondary education.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Lewis.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Chairman, from what I hear the only real cut for non-aboriginal students relates to the book allowance. There is a provision for some kind of needs assessment if students cannot raise the money. Do you have any idea or plan as to how that needs assessment is going to work, on what basis will you decide that.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

I believe that the same process we use for Canada student loans, is the process we are going to be using for this needs assessment. There is no change in that particular process.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Are there any general comments? Mr. Dent.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so I can get a better understanding of what we are talking about, I was wondering if we could ask the Minister or perhaps Mr. Pilon to give us some examples. I can understand the revisions which are referred to on page two of the Minister's statement, where he says, "Revisions have also been made to the rate structure for student allowances." Could we get some concrete examples of what revisions were made.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Minister.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. I will ask Mr. Pilon to give you the more specific details in that area.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Pilon.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Pilon

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For some specific examples of case studies that were done, making the changes from what we currently offer through the GNWT program and offered through the INAC, appendix nine of the Strength at Two Levels report runs a number of scenarios on specific cases for students. I will give you an example of what some of the changes would be. For instance, currently a student with two dependents receives from the Government of the Northwest Territories, $915 per month. Under the DIAND rate the person would receive $850 per month if the spouse was employed. If the spouse was unemployed they would receive $1,045 per month. There is more breakdown in terms of other income which is added or calculated in the formula for DIAND that there is in our current structure. By using the DIAND structure

we are using something which is used nationally and applied fairly across Canada.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Both the Minister and Mr. Pilon have both mentioned the Strength at Two Levels report. I am wondering if these changes to government program or policy at any time were discussed by the strength at two levels working group. Has it even been referred to that group for discussion in terms of overall acceptance as a government policy?

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. I am not sure and I will ask the Premier to respond. All I know is that this particular matter was submitted to the Standing Committee on Finance approximately one year ago.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Madam Premier.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, the Strength at Two Levels has never been received as a government document.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

I am aware that document has never been accepted as a government document, I do not think it has ever been accepted by this Legislature as an official document. However, I do think there was an undertaking by the government when discussing, in particular when the topic came up, when discussing or looking at changes which were recommended by the Strength at Two Levels report or other significant changes to government that they would be referred to the strength at two levels working group which consists of Cabinet plus three ordinary Members. This seems like a fairly significant policy and I am somewhat surprised that it has not been discussed by that group.

I would also like to point out that while this was presented to the Standing Committee on Finance, of which I am a Member, it was considered in the light that it was not proposed to proceed with it at that time. The Standing Committee on Finance has never been made aware yet that the intention was to proceed with this program this year. The only time it was ever mentioned to the Standing Committee on Finance, it was said we are not going to do it this year. I guess, perhaps we were remiss in not picking up on the point of the committee that a year ago we heard that it was going to be delayed a year so we should have been watching for it this year, but it was not clearly pointed out to us that it was going to proceed this year. So, I am not sure that this policy has received the sort of scrutiny that it may otherwise have received.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1484

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I cannot argue about the matter in which this particular issue was dealt with. All I can report to the honourable Members is that Mr. Schauerte, who is the Committee Clerk of the Standing Committee on Finance, provided me with the documentation and minutes of August 27, 1992, and it was indicated by the

Minister at that time and also in the presentation by the Minister on September 22, 1992, that we would proceed with the changes in 1993-94. In the arguments that were raised in August, indicated to the standing committee that they would not proceed with the changes because at that particular juncture because they could not propose a change in the middle of a school calendar year because it would have negative effects on the students. They would then allow us to prepare for the subsequent school year. That was the presentation which was made and I have copies of standing committee minutes. I was not clear myself and I needed to be certain of the comments which were made by the Minister at that time. I did not want to in any way to confuse or not proceed with a commitment to delay a decision at that time. The recommendation was that they would defer the item. It was based on the issues which were raised today by myself.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1485

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1485

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am quite aware of the process that happened at the Standing Committee on Finance. When we are presented with a budget the Minister says this amount is not going to be exactly the same because we are not going to do it this year, then that item stands out. However, it does not necessarily mean that we are going to be prepared at the Standing Committee on Finance to in the next budget which is presented to us, which is the one which this is finally going to take place in, is different. That is what I am saying, I do not know that this issue has received the sort of scrutiny that it might otherwise have done had it been brought to the attention of the committee that there was a significant change that was being reflected in the budget that was under consideration. I am somewhat concerned that on the last day of the session we get an announcement of this sort that reflects a change to a very important policy. I am not sure we have the time to deal with it. My comment for the Minister is I am going to be interested to hear from my constituents in the next while, their thoughts on this. While he may be hearing from me over the summer, if I hear a great deal from constituents then we may have some big problems in November.

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1485

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.,

Minister's Statement 88-12(3): Changes To Student Financial Assistance Program
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1485

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not opposed to hearing additional advice from honourable Members if there are any serious concerns which might be made with regard to the changes. If there are significant problems then I would be prepared to go back to Cabinet to address those concerns even before the upcoming school year. I just want to indicate to the honourable Member, I did not in any way try to delay the issue. I was always under the impression that the Members were aware of this particular change. That may have been my misunderstanding, but I have gone back to as much of the documentation as possible and was under the view that it was at least received with very little in terms of opposition. That may have been a misunderstanding on my part. If there are any major problems, then I will deal with that in the context of advice from my colleagues in this area.