We don't have any problem with the batting order, as it were, Mr. Chairman. But we would request, respectfully, a meeting of the Minister of Health and, in particular, Mr. Lewis, prior to Bill 3 being discussed, just for a few minutes to discuss it. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I don't mind deferring it and continuing with the budget if the government is having some problems that haven't been resolved. I thought they were

resolved so we suggested deliberation of the Guardianship and Trusteeship Act. But, if the government is not prepared, we can continue with Public Works.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Yes, at the moment, Mr. Ed Norwich.

Community Development

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have the information. I will provide the information and, hopefully, it will be satisfactory.

Mr. Chairman, the building is in sound condition and would require little or no renovations. However, it is not adequate for elders because there is poor access. The entrances are raised high off the ground, there is no common area, it cannot accommodate level II patients, the rooms are for single individuals, and there are no additional rooms for adopted grandchildren of the elders.

Mr. Chairman, a program has been arrived at, in consultation with the community. The department is still discussing the operation of a coordinated home care program from the proposed building. The size and configuration of the proposed new building, arrived at in consultation with the community, taking into consideration the community needs assessment, is for six separate, independent living units; two beds for 24-hour long-term care; and, two beds for respite care.

The occupancy proposed is that two elders would fill the 24-hour long-term beds; two respite beds will be temporarily occupied by a number of elders who require ongoing care to give care givers a rest; and, six independent living units will be filled by elders who are currently living with families in town, or who are in units that are housing units which are much larger than they need.

Fort Resolution has a long waiting list of residents who need public housing and the units vacated by the elders who moved to the seniors' facilities will relieve overcrowding in the community. So, as I stated yesterday, it would be combined and put into the common housing pool.

The department provides all of the operating funds for the care centre, but not the independent living units. The cost of operating this facility will be $400,000.

Mr. Chairman, I went a little bit further in explaining the old facility and what is proposed so that people get an idea of how it fits into the overall planning of housing for the community of Fort Resolution. Thank you.

Mr. Ken Lovely, deputy minister of Health and Social Services.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to this particular facility, I think that there are a lot of questions, overall planning and approaches that we have to look at. However, I believe that in taking a look at the various options that are available to us that, in order not to disrupt service, some things have to continue in the process and not be deferred because we're looking at an overall approach. So there are some specific programs that have to be taken care of, but it's not in the absence of the fact that we have to take a look at the overall requirements of the Northwest Territories; what is needed and what type of facilities are needed. So that's not an initiative or a commitment that is being put aside in the absence of just going ahead with one of these projects. It appears that this was the most effective way at this point in time to deal with this facility. I believe it's just the ongoing programs that we have, but we still have to look at the more visionary overall approach; we have to take to look at all communities and what their needs are, Mr. Chairman.

(Microphone turned off)...if the deputy minister has anything to add. My understanding is that in the housing needs study, the questions on the housing needs also identified housing requirements for elders or aging people. In the study itself or in the questionnaire, we have the information on the general scope of requirements. I would think that our second step now is to find out basically what are we talking about: if we have 20 people in a community who are between the ages of 50 to 75 -- this is an example -- does it have level I or level II requirements, and what are the general trends. I don't think that part of it is nailed down yet. We know what the age groups are that require housing; we know the number of dependants that certain families have, but we haven't really broken down what level of care is required in those communities.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some of that additional information will be available from the needs assessments that are being completed by the health boards as we speak. We are starting to get the information that allows us to differentiate the levels of care that are needed. We'll be a lot further ahead in that regard at the end of this year, and that should help us to pinpoint the exact locations where this is needed.

At the same time, we're working with the Housing Corporation -- I think that may have been mentioned earlier in the House -- to develop a strategy for satisfying the housing needs of elders. That's scheduled to be tabled in this House at the next session of the Legislative Assembly. That should provide a clear picture of who has responsibility for what aspects of the housing program and how the needs will be satisfied. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I know that the figures indicate a different process of how we're going to do it on a fully-funded operation; however, as there are several other requests and needs that have to be met, that is still an option. That option has not been discarded. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, just for clarification of the process, last year, in the five-year forecast, there was $100,000 designated for Gjoa Haven for, I guess, planning and design. Was there an amount designated under planning and design for Gjoa Haven for the senior citizens' home?

Mr. Chairman, as I indicated earlier, the Gjoa Haven facility was, at one time, in the budget and therefore planning money was also in the budget at that time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Last year, there was $100,000 approved then, for planning and design. What happened to that allocation?

Mr. Chairman, the officials here say it is still in the budget.

It is still in the budget, as it was previously in 1994-95.

With regard to the senior citizens' home in Fort Providence, on numerous occasions, I requested renovations to the cluster units; there are four of them. There are four single-bedroom units. Each two-bedroom unit has a kitchen, bathroom, but no common room area. I was told they want to keep that because of the level of acute care.

Given that we are pressed for dollars for renovations, I was wondering if it is realistic for the community of Fort Providence to have level II care at the senior citizens' home, without it costing this government a lot of dollars. I know that, previously, when seniors were too old to care for themselves, they were sent to Hay River.

I'm wondering if, with level II care, you need an extra professional do deal with those elders.

Mr. Chairman, I know I always get confused about what is level I, level II and level III. I think the honourable Member is talking about level III care. I have said to Members here that I want you to be sure I am working with the Minister responsible for Housing. I specifically asked what kind of action we could take with the Fort Providence senior citizens' home. I asked that question yesterday and I got an answer yesterday.

What the Minister of Housing has indicated to me is that he has directed his officials at the corporation to develop a request for funding from CMHC, to conduct renovations at the seniors' facility. He did that on October 7, 1994. Mr. Morin believes it is important that the health officials consult with the elders in Fort Providence to see if there is a need for level I or level II care. With level II care, one caretaker is required. It is not as extreme as level III where, generally, elders are referred to Yellowknife or some major centre.

Mr. Morin has indicated that before resources are spent on renovations, he wants to determine that there will not be a need in the foreseeable future for level II care units. The officials of both our departments are committed to meeting immediately to try to resolve with the community exactly what their needs are, so that we can proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

About Fort Resolution, I would like to ask the Minister, while officials are consulting with the elders at the seniors' home, that I am kept informed about the status of that. I know the four residents who are there: Mr. Ted Beaulieu, Mr. Vital Brula, Mr. Harry Minoza and Mr. Nadli. They have all requested that somehow the units be individualized. It causes disruption. All of them are over 60, but they would like to live their own lives, and live them in peace.

It was as a result of their request, that I requested they consider maybe making renovations to individualize the units. I appreciate the Minister's response to that. Thank you.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Again, before we conclude this, I know I brought this up with Mrs. Marie-Jewell when she was the Minister; Mr. Whitford when he was the Minister; and, Red Pedersen, when he was the Minister, and now I want to bring it up with you, Madam Premier.

It is regarding the furniture at the senior citizens' home in Providence; I am bringing it up time and time again. A lot of the furniture that is there has been there since the building was built.

Also, under the transfer agreement, is the federal government still going to spend money, without us putting in more money, for hospitals; or, is that a cost-sharing thing? I'm not too clear on that, but I know when Stanton Yellowknife Hospital was built, it was built with federal contributions. Is that still the arrangement?

Mr. Chairman, just the Inuvik and the Baffin Hospital.

I know they are going to be building in Inuvik and Iqaluit. I'm asking, are the amounts our share for the facilities. Does it cost more than what is actually in the books?

Mr. Chairman, can Mr. Ed Norwich please answer that question?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The federal/GNWT cost-sharing arrangements for these hospitals are reflected in the recovery portion of the estimate document; the $1.556 million. Correction, it doesn't show up there. The cost-sharing arrangement with the federal government will show up in future years. The money which is in the budget is the total project cost of which we have an apportion into our cost-sharing arrangement, based on the ethnicity in the Baffin and Inuvik regions. It does show up in future years. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed.

---Agreed

The committee will come back to order. Before the break, the committee agreed to proceed with Bill 3. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Mr. Dent, you're suggesting that we continue with the Department of Public Works and Services. Do we agree that we proceed with the Department of Public Works and Services?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Public Works And Services

Thank you. Is the appropriate Minister, the Honourable Don Morin, prepared to make his opening remarks?

Minister's Introductory Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have given copies of the opening remarks -- 42 copies -- to the Clerk. We have done that already.

I am pleased to be here today to present the proposed 1995-96 capital budget for the Department of Public Works and Services. The capital requests total $12.685 million.

This year the Department of Public Works and Services, along with the NWT Housing Corporation and the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, have implemented the building and learning strategy in 12 pilot communities; two in each region. The number of participants has increased to approximately 100 in the training programs this year.

Local people are involved in training that will advance them towards jobs as trades persons, project managers or foremen. In addition to the six community training committees established last year, committees have now been established this year in Baker Lake, Coppermine, Igloolik, Fort Providence, Lac La Martre and Snare Lake. These committees work with representatives of the three departments and identify priorities and trainees for the training opportunities associated with local construction projects.

In 1995-96, the department will manage approximately 600 capital construction projects worth $79 million. The department's objective is to maximize the northern employment and business opportunities associated with the GNWT construction program. In addition to the building and learning strategy, the department used a wide variety of delivery approaches to achieve this objective. As a result, there are increasing numbers of northern companies, based in the smaller communities, that can be counted on to carry out construction projects. Fossil Lake Enterprises Limited in Fort Good Hope is one example. This company has managed renovation and construction projects for the GNWT over the last two years, totalling more than $2.5 million.

Many other companies, such as Kawtak Construction Limited in Sanikiluaq, Qillaut Development Corporation in Pond Inlet, Qikiqtaq in Pangnirtung, Cap Mountain Ventures in Wrigley, Issatik in Whale Cove, Tetlit-zeh in Fort McPherson and Nakehk'o Koe Construction in Fort Simpson, to name only a few, have all benefitted from these approaches.

In January, I wrote to all MLAs outlining the delivery approaches for projects in their ridings. I will briefly outline some of these project delivery methods.

The many small road-site-land development projects are normally tendered by invitation to local companies only. If there is only one local company, the department will sole-source that contract. If there is no local company, the department will sole-source with the local council.

Contracted construction management services are sometimes used in communities where there is no local construction company able to manage a project. The construction manager must ensure the use of local labour, equipment and small businesses. This approach was used for projects such as the community centres in Nahanni Butte and Kakisa and the Snare Lake community office and school.

The department contracts with local development corporations and local councils to provide labour to general contractors. For example, Nakehk'o Koe Construction is providing labourers for Hovat on the Fort Simpson Bompas school project.

At my instruction, the contract for the Arviat tank farm construction was tendered by invitation only to NWT contractors. Before this project, construction contracts for tank farms and fuel storage facilities had traditionally gone to southern companies. A local firm, Eskimo Point Lumber, won the contract and is now completing its first year of work on this multi-million dollar multi-year project. The department has worked closely with the company to assist the owner to manage the largest contract this company has ever had.

In 1994-95, to date, four contracts for capital construction projects have been approved for negotiation, for a total value of approximately $1.3 million. The awards for these negotiated contracts have been within the budgeted estimates. I am confident, therefore, that the department is getting good value when these contracts are negotiated.

This year, the department contributed $1.4 million to the retrofitting of the Terry Fox ice breaker, as part of a joint initiative with the federal government. A new crane will be installed and tanks will be retrofitted. This retrofit will permit an annual sealift resupply of petroleum products and dry goods to Pelly Bay and will benefit the community significantly by reducing the costs of these goods.

For the 1995-96 capital budget, the department provides office space to government departments and is requesting $1.131 million so that space requirements can be met in eight NWT communities. I am pleased to report that one major undertaking, the Yellowknife office plan, is on target to reduce the total inventory of leased office space by 40,000 square feet in Yellowknife by the end of 1996-97 and to achieve an operations and maintenance savings of $1 million annually by 1997-98.

Under the building and works activity, the department is requesting capital funding to continue to upgrade the program for the Laing Building in Yellowknife and the Brown Building in Iqaluit. Ventilation systems in five schools will be upgraded to national building code standards as part of a multi-year project in which 20 schools will be upgraded over five years. This will provide a healthier environment for the students. The department will continue with the energy conservation capital program and proposes to commit $450,000 to those projects.

In the vehicles and equipment activity, $647,000 is required to replace 25 vehicles: 13 are for the Department of Public Works and Services, while 12 are for other departments.

Cabinet approved the transfer of the community dust control program, effective April 1, 1995 and the proposed capital main estimates for MACA and Public Works and Services have been adjusted accordingly.

The petroleum products division buys, ships and stores petroleum products for over 45 communities not served by private industry. Facilities and vehicles are required to keep pace with the growing community demand. As a result, major tank construction projects will occur in five communities. Projects in another five communities will proceed to design and warranty phases. The total capital request for the petroleum products activity is $7.83 million.

This year, under the systems and communications activity, the department is requesting $190,000 to fund the continued upgrading of mainframe hardware systems. This also includes starting a three-year project to upgrade computer room facilities in the regional centres.

Members will note that the funding requested for the delivery of the building and learning strategy has not been included in the department's 1995-96 plan. The 1994-95 program will be reviewed later in the year. Plans for 1995-96 will be developed and funding will be requested through a special warrant.

Finally, as Members know, the department will move quickly to undertake community consultation on the business incentive policy. We intend to take the revisions to the policy to Cabinet before the end of the fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes my opening remarks. I will be pleased to answer any questions from the Members. Mahsi cho.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance, Mr. Antoine.

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. Since this department is responsible for negotiating, tendering and implementing

many of the contracts of other departments as well as its own, a number of issues relating to contracting in general were discussed when this department appeared before the committee.

Business Incentive Policy

One concern expressed was regarding the business incentive policy (BIP). Committee Members report that many business operators in the north are increasingly frustrated with the current policy. They see it as unnecessarily complicated. They also see it as unfair at times, when southern companies start getting northern preference without, in their view, adequate justification.

The committee acknowledges that the department is re-examining the BIP in hopes of improving it. But committee Members urge the department to go back to the original objective of the policy: to ensure that as much of the government's expenditures as possible stay in the north to the benefit of northerners. Suggestions that a revamped BIP would put more emphasis on the northern labour content of contracts are worthwhile, but the department must be careful not to further complicate the program.

Recommendation 11

The Standing Committee on Finance recommends that the Department of Public Works and Services replace the current business incentive policy with a new program that is simpler, less bureaucratic, enforceable, and more effective.

At the end of this presentation, I will be making a motion on this recommendation.

Contract Estimating And Budgeting

Committee Members also noted a possible problem with the estimation of contracts, and with coordination and communication with other departments. In the past, the standing committee pointed out how many projects had gone over budget and urged the department to improve its estimating procedures. Now, many projects are over budget, but many projects come in under budget, too. While this means that overall spending estimates are more likely to be accurate, the wide variance in project estimation still concerns committee Members.

Granted, estimating projects in the north is much more difficult than elsewhere in Canada, due to the many unique factors affecting construction and planning in the north. But the committee still urges the department to improve its estimating procedures, in order to reduce the variance in project spending and to allow better and more consistent planning. The committee will expect departments to explain and justify wide variances in project estimates.

In his opening remarks, the Minister suggested that the original goal of splitting the budget into two separate bills -- allowing capital project tenders to go out earlier -- would be reached by April 1996 for 1996-97 contracts. Committee Members are concerned, however, that tenders are still often late enough that projects are delayed to future years. Committee Members noted many disadvantages to the two-budget process, and noted that if the advantage of extra lead time was not being realized, then the two-budget concept should be reviewed.

Inuvik HTHW System

Committee Members note that the department is proceeding with the phasing-out of the Inuvik high temperature hot water (HTHW) heating system. As was recommended last year, the committee continues to encourage the department to consult with other departments, as well as agencies such as the NWT Power Corporation, as they plan the dismantling of that system.