Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are there any dollars allocated for construction of fire towers or is that out of the question for this coming year?

Mr. Chairman, at the present time, I believe that we are looking at some renovations to some towers. But, again, I would like to point out that it is the intention of the department to make extensive consultation with various communities and regions about how the department and the government should be fighting fires. I hope that from the consultations that the department makes, we will be able to clearly explain to the Member, or anyone who may be concerned about forest fires, how we should be fighting them. I would imagine from the consultations, we will get direction from communities as to what locations would be good for fire towers to be built. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I just finished telling the Minister that about three years ago, the Department of Renewable Resources had people going into communities talking with them with regard to the issue of firefighting. At the meeting in Fort Smith, we specifically identified the need to have fire towers established in about five areas. I have mentioned the Horne Plateau, Sibbeston Mountain, Redknife Mountain and there were others close to Wrigley that we were looking at to ensure that there is provision by having those towers there and less spent on aircraft. That was the encouragement we thought we had put across to the department. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that in the region of the western Arctic fire is a big issue. This year was pretty bad, but we don't see it. We don't even see it reflected in the budget.

I am also suggesting that as far as the priorities of the government: the land; environment; animals; and, the people that depend on them, it isn't a priority. I appreciate the Minister suggesting that they are going to be going out and consulting again, but we have already done that once. Most of the older generation who fought fires before say that it is not a question about when you go out. They say if there is a fire, you go out now and solve your problems right there.

Most of the time what happens now is there is so much red tape and bureaucracy that you can't even determine whose jurisdiction fires are in. I know because I was in Lutsel K'e this summer and there were problems between who should be fighting the fire about 20 miles from Lutsel K'e. Yellowknife said it is their fire. It is this business of mine and yours that causes everything to get out of control.

I really have a concern here, Mr. Chairman, and I am expressing it. I don't know how much stronger I should be expressing it to make the government see that this is not a small issue. There just isn't enough money there to address what should be a priority of this government.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. I don't know if there were questions. Do you want to respond, Mr. Minister?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to agree with Mr. Gargan that it is something that the department has to take a very close look at. When a department of the government has to spend millions of dollars on incremental funds, it has to be something we have to look at very seriously. For a number of years, the department has looked at how we can fight fires in a better way. The consultations that were made previously were on how the department presently operates. I have committed to taking a look at exactly how we should be improving.

I have indicated that I would like to attend some of these community meetings and be sure that elders are contacted to give their opinion. It seems that every time we turn around there is an opinion that comes from someone who says how we should be fighting fires. Perhaps some solutions to our problems in fighting forest fires should be coming from elders. The varied opinions go as far as we should let everything burn because it is natural. It is an act of God and something that will help nature create new growth. The other side says we should be fighting every single little fire that happens. So we have a very wide range of opinions.

We hear from every possible person who may be concerned about forest fires. It is my intention to hear from elders as well. In fact, the department will be contacting the Dene Cultural Institute to consult with elders in various communities in the western Arctic to try to find ways to resolve problems we have in forest fire management. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Gargan.

It is funny the Minister should mention the whole business of an act of God. This year we hardly had any rain, Mr. Chairman. We hardly had any thunderstorms. I am not saying those fires were started deliberately, but I certainly don't have any other conclusions. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give me the details on the allocations going to hunters and trappers in each community and the amount that is capital. The Minister did say there were dollars there for compensation and assistance.

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. We are on general comments, but if the Minister has that kind of detail, he can respond.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We don't have the details on the request made by Mr. Gargan, but we are willing to provide it for him. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few general comments on the Department of Renewable Resources. What my colleague Mr. Gargan is talking about with regard to using fire towers rather than covering the cost of helicopters was a subject raised a number of years ago during a study that the department was doing when they were looking at how to better fight fires. We were questioning the department about it for the last two years. Then all of a sudden, we didn't hear about it any more. Maybe the study was used to bring up the costs of fire operations last summer, I don't know. One of the recommendations we made at that time was to cut the cost of fire operations by putting in more fire towers.

The thinking behind it was if you do some capital projects and hire local people to man these towers, perhaps we don't need to pay $500 an hour for a helicopter to fly around looking for fires. That was the thinking behind it. That is just one example of the type of suggestions communities were making, in an earnest effort to have input into a better way of dealing with fighting fires in the north.

As we all know, the cost of fighting fires this past summer was over $20 million and that is quite a big amount of money that, along with that and others, is causing this government to go into a deficit. This is a very serious matter. Whatever happened to that study? Who did the study and what happened to it? Have any of the recommendations ever been incorporated into the way the fires are fought or are they still studying? The Minister is now saying they are going to do another study. You really have to step back and look at the whole operation of firefighting because we have been studying it every year and it is a never ending study. Communities have input into it and that is the last you hear about it. The next thing you know, we have another fire season and every year the cost has escalated.

Looking at this capital budget, I agree that there isn't much in there, but there is something. The majority of the projects we have for this year are the building of bases for firefighting where the crews could have camps and so forth. There is very little for the other parts of the department; environmental protection and trappers. I think the majority of this capital budget is for fighting fires.

There is another area I want to cover and that is with regard to trees. It may be an O and M project. This past weekend I drove to Fort Simpson and along the way I ran into some men who were cutting some firewood. They have a small business. This man had a two-ton flatbed truck and he had three men working with him. He told me that they make money and put food on the table for their family. It isn't much. It is a small operation, but this is what they have to do. Community corporations and other companies don't have work for them and it is too early to trap, so they have to do something else. This is how they make income. They were cutting wood in a burnt area. These are trees that are going to fall down anyway. They were telling me that because they were going to sell wood, they have to pay this fee for cutting down the trees. I think it was quite a bit of money for a small operation. They had to pay the fee before they could cut the trees.

Why do people have to pay for cutting down trees that are burnt and are going to fall down and rot anyway? They are more or less cleaning the country for other growth that has already begun. There is really no need for reforestation in that area. It is naturally taking care of itself. You can't tell me the cost of cutting the trees is reforestation. Why do people have to pay these fees? Is there another way of dealing with it where small operations like that pay the fees after they cut and sell the trees? They don't have money before they start cutting, unless they are a big operator. But the type of people I am talking about are not big operators. I may have other questions to ask after that.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. There are several questions for you there, Mr. Minister, if you would like to respond.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to the comments on fire towers and fire prevention, the department could be building and adding more towers to the forested areas. We could be building more satellite bases and doing more fire prevention, which I believe in the long run, will save money for the department and the government on firefighting. However, with the limited resources we have been given, we are not able to keep up with the suggestions that are being made.

The study that was done on behalf of the department on ways to improve fire fighting in the Northwest Territories was done by Peat Marwick Stevenson and Kellogg. They did a massive study on firefighting. It consisted of 11 studies on firefighting. I believe they tried to cover all aspects and how we could reduce costs. I believe part of their recommendations were to increase the number of towers and to increase fire prevention programs, but, as a government, we are limited by the funds that are available. We are not able to carry out everything we would like to be doing.

As far as the wood cutting is concerned, there is a fee of $1.50 per cord and this fee is to cover some of the costs incurred by the department in forest management, areas where small roads will have to be made to reach certain areas of the forest. These costs are charged to wood cutters or loggers to offset some of the costs that we, as a department, incur in forest management. Again, we are reviewing the process and the fees as they are outlined in our Forest Management Act but if there are specific concerns that the Member has, we certainly will take into account his comments while undertaking this review.

Mr. Chairman, I forgot to mention that the fire management study that I spoke of has, I believe, been provided to the Standing Committee on Finance. I believe that was done just over the weekend. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you. Getting back to the budget, in Renewable Resources there are programs where reforestation of areas of logging activity is occurring. There are plans to do more logging and to set up more sawmills in the north where there are forests. The trees that are planted there are trees that are grown in the south. I don't know what kind of species they

are. Perhaps these are trees from the south. I don't know whether this department is looking at perhaps encouraging companies up here to do tree farming, where there are greenhouses to start these trees. Perhaps it might be good to do that up here. Something of that size should be reflected in the budget.

The other comment I would like to make is that a couple of years ago when these trees were brought up from the south and distributed, the excess was distributed to school kids. In my community, I noticed that there was larvae in the trees. In my area, we have a lot of bud worms and it never used to be like that before. I was wondering if the trees that are grown in the south and brought up here have worms and bugs in them that are infecting our trees up here. That is another reason why I think we should start our own industry up here, growing our own trees, rather than buying these small trees from the south. This is one of the things I would like to see in the Renewable Resource budget.

A number of us have been raising our voices here about the fur industry. We want to get into the fur industry in a big way. We are faced with a world-wide movement to ban furs, and they gave us a one-year extension, but that one year is going to be used up fairly quickly. We don't know what the future is like and we still have a lot of trappers up here. I said that I recognized the furs caught by our trappers are top quality furs, exclusive furs, and that we should be doing something to promote that. The way to promote that is to, perhaps, look at fixing the furs up here ourselves and even auctioning them up here.

In order to do that, you would probably have to build a facility of some sort up here to do that, and invite people who buy furs up here, rather than sending our furs down to auctions down south and losing total control of prices for our fur. Maybe the department is looking at that, but that is one thing that should be in our budget. That is something we should be dealing with and considering in the budget of this department. It may cost some money upfront, but in the long run, I think it will pay off and it will mark the beginning of a good fur industry in the north.

These are some questions the Minister can answer, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As far as forest management, I think that Mr. Antoine has a good idea in terms of nurseries for trees in the north. What is happening at the present time is there are seeds taken from the north in areas that we know are going to be harvested to nurseries in the south where they are grown to a certain length. Then, they are brought back into the same area in which the seeds came from. So, in effect, what is happening is we're growing trees at a much faster rate than if they had been nursed in the north.

Because the trees are grown in a nursery, they should not have any of the larvae that Mr. Antoine has indicated were seen. I don't know where the larvae would be coming from because the trees that are brought in from the south are from seeds that come from the north in the area in which they are to be planted. They should not have any kind of infestation. The Department of Renewable Resources, especially in the area of forest management, would be willing work with anyone who would like to try out a nursery somewhere in the north. We would be more than willing to work with anyone who will try this out.

As far as fur grading is concerned, the grading and cleaning which has been discussed by Mr. Antoine is a possibility. As we continue to progress, this is something that would be possible. At the present time, the department is working on getting a trainee to work with a fur grading centre and possibly return to the north and work on grading and cleaning in the north. However, to try to create an auction in the north would be somewhat more difficult. It would be difficult to attract the biggest buyers from around the world to come north. It might be something that might be considered at a later time.

At the present time, we, as a department, are looking into fur grading and the possibility of cleaning furs in the Northwest Territories. Exactly how that will look I'm not sure at the present time. The first step we are taking is hiring a trainee, someone willing and able to learn to grade and clean fur. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Antoine, you have finished. Is there anyone else who would like to make general comments, statements or questions? Are you ready to go into detail with this department?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Wildlife Management

Page 10-9, wildlife management. Equipment acquisition, headquarters, total region, $96,000.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Total equipment acquisition, $96,000.