This is page numbers 127 - 154 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo, Mr. Antoine, Hon. Silas Arngna'naaq, Mr. Ballantyne, Hon. Nellie Cournoyea, Mr. Dent, Mr. Gargan, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Koe, Mr. Lewis, Hon. Jeannie Marie-Jewell, Hon. Rebecca Mike, Hon. Don Morin, Hon. Richard Nerysoo, Mr. Ng, Mr. Ningark, Mr. Patterson, Hon. John Pollard, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Pudluk, Hon. John Todd, Mr. Whitford, Mr. Zoe

---Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Keewatin Central, Mr. Todd.

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Since I have become Minister responsible for Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, I have become much more impressed with the potential of our non-renewable resources, particularly minerals, to our economic future. I've also become very concerned about how poorly positioned we are as a government to take advantage of these resources for the long term benefit of our residents. This government has no ability to legislate in respect to oil and gas and minerals, or to obtain revenues from their development.

Mineral exploration activity in the NWT is booming, not just for diamonds but also for gold and base metals. Over the next ten years, we will probably see at least six new mines open in the NWT, bringing thousands of new jobs and billions of dollars worth of new investments. The mineral industry is here for the long term. It provides us with one of the best opportunities we have to increase our economic self-reliance. But we cannot realize this potential under the current arrangements.

Without the legislative tools to manage these industries and without access to resource revenues, this government will continue to have minimal control over non-renewable resource development, and will realize no fiscal benefits from mining and oil and gas activity.

Madam Speaker, this is why I intend to pursue devolution of responsibilities for oil and gas and minerals from the Government of Canada as a matter of my highest priority.

As long as we receive a reasonable share of revenues, a reasonable transfer of financial resources to operate the programs, and a clean transfer of legislative powers then we should be in a position to proceed with a devolution agreement for oil and gas and minerals which leaves us much better off than we are today.

Madam Speaker, in the coming weeks I intend to meet with aboriginal organizations and federal Ministers to move this initiative forward and I intend to keep the Assembly informed of any and all developments. Thank you.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to report that agreement has been reached with the federal government which represents significant progress in the development of new arrangements towards more community control of policing.

Two pilot projects in Fort Good Hope and Coral Harbour will allow for the introduction of a community constable program. Six people from each community were sent to Regina on February 7 to commence three weeks of training at the RCMP academy.

After completing their initial training period, the community constables will be working between 15 and 35 hours a month under the supervision of the RCMP in their respective communities.

In developing these pilot projects with the RCMP, it was considered desirable that there be representation from both Dene and Inuit communities. RCMP members at the detachments of Fort Good Hope and Coral Harbour, and the members of these communities had a special interest in conducting this program. The two communities also offered experience in both one-person and two-person detachments. Accordingly, the RCMP recommended that the communities of Fort Good Hope and Coral Harbour be considered as pilot communities.

The initiation of these projects represent encouraging cooperation between the communities, the RCMP, the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government.

The period of these projects is three years. The experience gained will be helpful as the communities of the north and this government search for the optimum ways to provide for community policing. Thank you.

---Applause.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

Nunavut Leaders' Summit In Rankin Inlet
Item 3: Members' Statements

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to conclude my Member's statement from yesterday with regard to the Nunavut leaders' summit that was held in Rankin Inlet.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the leaders' conference, I am sure that the Members of this Legislative Assembly will meet with interest after I have tabled the following document. However, I will commit that there was a declaration approved by delegates which committed those present to the annual meeting of this nature until 1999. Regular contact and discussions between leaders of organizations within Nunavut was encouraged, as well, Madam Speaker, with all we have to do between now and 1999.

It is essential that we work together to ensure that duplication of efforts will not occur. We, in the Nunavut Caucus, are committed to this initiative and are looking forward to future meetings with other Nunavut leaders. There were three accompanying statements, Madam Speaker, that were approved by the delegates. They deal with items that were discussed at the meeting that were of major concern to the delegates. Those are statements regarding cooperation and commitment to education in Nunavut, the statement supporting the devolution of non-renewable resources from the federal government to the Government of the Northwest Territories, and a statement concerning the adoption of a code of conduct by organizations in Nunavut. I guess that the Members will find these statements interesting and I believe that they are indicative of the commitment and hard work that lies ahead for all of us in the Northwest Territories as we work towards division.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Members of the Nunavut Caucus, the Nunavut Tunngavik executive, the members of the Nunavut Implementation Commission, the regional organizations and all other delegates who attended the meeting, for their hard work during the three days, as well. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause.

Nunavut Leaders' Summit In Rankin Inlet
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
Item 3: Members' Statements

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Madam Speaker, mindful of your admonition on Friday that Members should try to stay within the time limit, I have to confess that my Member's statement, for some reason -- it must have been the typist -- came out longer than two and a half minutes. So I'm going to probably go over, and I should confess that at the beginning, not at the end. But it's good stuff, Madam Speaker, so I'm going to start.

Madam Speaker, the government's staff housing strategy looks great, in principle. I'm sure that all Members agree with helping government employees who want to become home owners to do so. There are many in my riding. However, once again, just as with the rent increases, serious problems have arisen in implementing the strategy.

The main problem that I see -- and I'm not only speaking for Iqaluit -- is that quite apart from the sale of staff housing, whether staff housing is sold to employees or not, this strategy, unfortunately, will not deal with the fundamental problem of a huge and growing shortage of staff housing in the entire region, and I suspect in other regions, as well.

The reason is, Madam Speaker, that since the government has been talking about getting out of staff housing, mainly by selling units off but also by raising rents to encourage home ownership, hardly any new staff houses have been built or leased in Baffin Island. That's for at least the last ten years unless, that is, they burned down.

At the recent Baffin leaders' summit, for example, we heard from the Department of Social Services that they cannot hire a social worker in Broughton Island or in Hall Beach. Why? No staff housing.

I know that the 1994-95 budget of the Department of Justice contains funds to hire a community justice worker to support the elders' group which is very active in justice in Pond Inlet. Great news. Yet, our government is busy selling off existing staff houses, even a duplex, even to a term employee I've heard, although there are already no surplus staff housing units in Pond Inlet. Will Pond Inlet get its new community justice worker? Where will that person live?

In Iqaluit, a long awaited alcohol and drug treatment centre is near completion.

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Mr. Patterson, your allotted time has lapsed for Members' statements. I think if you didn't waste 15 seconds explaining you would be over, you probably would have had more time. However, you require...

---Applause

Mr. Patterson, go ahead.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

May I seek unanimous consent, Madam Speaker, humbly. Thank you.

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue. Are there any nays? There are no nays, Mr. Patterson, continue.

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

I feel fortunate today, Madam Speaker. Thank you.

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
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The Speaker

Order. I asked for nays. I didn't hear any nays. I asked twice and I didn't hear any so, Mr. Patterson, proceed.

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker and Members. In Iqaluit, a long awaited alcohol and drug treatment centre is near completion. This is also great news. But there is no housing for the new treatment centre staff. Where will they live without housing? Will they be willing to apply for those critical new jobs?

It seems like our government believes that merely by getting out of staff housing, staff housing needs will look after themselves. Maybe that approach worked just fine in Yellowknife, Fort Smith and Hay River, places with a developed private housing market. But Baffin Island is not like Yellowknife. People applying for government jobs, even local people in communities, many of whom are probably already living in overcrowded public housing, and certainly not people coming up from the south or elsewhere in the NWT, will accept jobs in places like Hall Beach or Broughton Island on the basis they find accommodation once they get the jobs.

Our population in Baffin is growing, some communities by up to three per cent a year. Demands on government programs such as education and social services are growing because of the growing population. Apart from NWT Housing Corporation home ownership units and public housing, hardly any new houses have been built for years in these level II and III communities.

We have many new person years in this budget which was laid before us yesterday. I will be very concerned to find out whether the GNWT has a plan to provide housing for each new position in each community. Personnel and Public Works must have a strategy in place to meet staff housing for new staff needs at the same time as they implement in a careful manner, community by community, their program to sell staff housing to existing employees. If the Government of the Northwest Territories continues to pretend that selling off staff housing in level II and III communities, or waiting for the private sector to fill the gap, will somehow take care of staff housing requirements for our rapidly growing population, we'll have an even greater staff housing shortfall to catch up with each year.

Madam Speaker -- and I know the Minister of Economic Development will listen to this part of my statement with great attention -- there are development corporations and private companies willing to build housing units in these communities. I acknowledge that. And they are probably willing to sell them later on to government employees who want to buy them. But the reality, Madam Speaker, is that the private sector, these private companies, will not build on Baffin Island without government guaranteed leases. Why? They will not build, even on speculation, simply because no bank will finance such construction.

So, Madam Speaker, I say to Madam Premier and the Minister of Personnel, without exaggeration, I hope, in Baffin Island you have a staff housing crisis on your hands. For the sake of being able -- well, I'm only speaking...I know Baffin best, it may be true in other regions -- to deliver critical government programs, please deal with it. Thank you.

---Applause

Housing Shortage In Baffin Island
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Absence From The House
Item 3: Members' Statements

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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. As a courtesy to you and to this House, I wish to advise you that I will be absent all day tomorrow to attend a Kitikmeot Inuit Association annual general meeting in Cambridge Bay.

---Applause

Absence From The House
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Inadequate Legislation In Dental Mechanics Act
Item 3: Members' Statements

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Here is another reality, Madam Speaker. I want to rise today to speak on the denturist presently attempting to run a business in Yellowknife.

Madam Speaker, the source of all this gentleman's problems is in inadequate pieces of legislation that ensure all powers remain with the dentists operating in the Northwest Territories. Why are the dentists so reluctant to give up their control of the Dental Mechanics Act in the Northwest Territories? It may be that the dentists have a new list of concerns about the professionalism of dental mechanics operating in the Northwest Territories if the dentist must have control to ensure the safety of NWT dental patients. I suggest to you, Madam Speaker, that their objection to the denturist operating has more to do with financial concerns than any amount of concerns on their part for the well-being of the Northwest Territories dental patients.

What I mean by this, Madam Speaker, is that I've heard from a reliable source that it costs the dentist approximately $200 to send a referral to the dental lab in Edmonton or Winnipeg. However, Madam Speaker, under the uninsured health benefits of the Indian Health Act, these dentists are billing the government $800 to $1,000.

In most cases, when it is known that the referral is an aboriginal individual, the dental lab uses the cheapest material and processes to do the work. The end result, Madam Speaker, is dentures that don't fit or are painful to use. In either case, it means that the patient does not use the dentures. Madam Speaker, as the honourable Member for Yellowknife South mentioned before Christmas, there have been cases of people using carving knives to effect the necessary repair on dentures instead of having to wait the three to six months it takes the dental labs down south to do the job.

Madam Speaker, I'm one of those people who require partial plates. I would prefer to have a local denturist who I would go to at any time...

Inadequate Legislation In Dental Mechanics Act
Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Mr. Gargan, your time has lapsed for your Member's statement. Mr. Gargan.

Inadequate Legislation In Dental Mechanics Act
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Madam Speaker, I request unanimous consent to continue my statement.

Inadequate Legislation In Dental Mechanics Act
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The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue with his Member's statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Continue, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker and honourable Members. Recently, Madam Speaker, my younger brother, Frank, invited the resident denturist to Fort Providence to work on those people's dentures who require adjustment. Madam Speaker, the denturist would have been pleased to travel to Fort Providence to do this work, but had to decline due to the threat of criminal prosecution that hangs over his head, that he sought business without referrals from the dentist.

Madam Speaker, there are elders who have lived on a traditional diet all of their lives, who are now forced to live on a diet of tea and toast because of the continual problems they have with their dentures. As you can imagine, Madam Speaker, this contributes to the elders' physical and mental deterioration.

Madam Speaker, many of us in this Assembly can remember when medical services in the Northwest Territories were few and far between. Why doesn't this government support the establishment of a dental lab in Yellowknife for the benefit of the residents? We, as a government, must encourage new businesses and industry to locate in the Northwest Territories. If we have to change an inadequate piece of legislation to accomplish this, we must do so.

Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that the dentists have no problem with a dental lab in the Northwest Territories. The only thing they want is their right to make referrals. Madam Speaker, the denturist has received only five referrals since he started shop six months ago. I suggest the government move quickly on this issue before the problem becomes redundant by virtue of the denturist moving south to make a living. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

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Item 3: Members' Statements

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Morin.

Further Return To Question 34-12(5): Report On Sale Of Staff Housing
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Allooloo on February 9. This is a further return.

On February 11, 1994, I replied to an oral question asked by Mr. Allooloo on February 9, 1994. I reported that the revenue from the sale of staff houses was $6,240,456. I should have

reported that $6,240,456 is the revenue from the sale of staff houses to GNWT employees.

In preparing for the status report, a line was unfortunately omitted, which reports that the sales to the public to date, have brought in an additional $4,303,471.

Total revenues to date is, therefore, $10,543,927. I will distribute a revised report to the MLAs. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 34-12(5): Report On Sale Of Staff Housing
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Morin.

Return To Question 80-12(5): Criteria For Assessing Leased Land For Staff Housing Strategy
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Patterson on February 14, 1994.

Where the GNWT has appraisals done for a house on leased land, no land value is assigned to the property. The government gives the purchaser a leasehold interest only. In conjunction with the sale of the house and other improvements that might be on the land, they get a 30 year lease for the land. The purchaser has to make the annual lease payments on the land. Thank you.

Return To Question 80-12(5): Criteria For Assessing Leased Land For Staff Housing Strategy
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Morin.

Further Return To Question 75-12(5): Procedures For Sale Of Staff Housing
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Patterson on February 14, 1994 on the procedures for the sale of staff housing.

In response to an oral question asked by Mr. Patterson on February 14, 1994, I will provide to all Members a copy of the guidelines for the sale of staff housing to employees. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 75-12(5): Procedures For Sale Of Staff Housing
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Personnel. In the budget, which the Minister of Finance tabled, and introduced to this House yesterday, there were some new positions in the level II and III communities. Presumably, these positions could be filled as soon as April 1, 1994. How many housing units are required for these positions? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will take the question as notice.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. To the Minister of Personnel, before 1991, the government had a staff housing policy, which anyone could find in the government's policy book. I should say before 1992, pardon me. Where would an NWT resident, today, find a copy of the long-term staff housing strategy? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will provide the strategy to this House. Thank you.

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Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I am aware that before December of 1992, government employees who were implementing the staff housing policy had a staff housing section of the Personnel manual in which they could find detailed guidelines on what should be done, when and how, with regard to staff housing. For the new long-term staff housing strategy, are there similar guidelines or procedures available for government employees when they are dealing with questions and implementing that strategy? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
Item 5: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Thank you. Initially, the question was directed to the Minister of Personnel. However, the Premier did want to reply to it after I had directed the question to the Minister of Personnel. I will allow the Premier to answer. Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Strategy
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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, I have been looking at Hansard and looking at some of the questions. I would like to bring in perspective the process that we started with and why we are here in terms of the long-term staff housing policy, or strategy, so everyone will have the same information. Some of the questions and supplementaries will be incorporated in this explanation.

Madam Speaker, the long-term staff housing strategy is the end product of many years of work and a variety of studies. The first study was conducted in 1979 by a joint task force consisting of management and unions, which the previous Government Leader was involved with and lead. This was followed in 1985 by the Special Committee on Housing and decisions were then made by three different governments, under three different Government Leaders, to get out of staff housing. The recommendations from the studies and directions from the different cabinets were incorporated in the long-term staff housing strategy which was developed in its present form between 1989 and 1991, finalized in 1992 and approved by Cabinet in November 1992. As well, several short-term steps were taken along the way.

In 1989 and again in 1990, a process for making single-family housing units available for sale to long-term employees in every community except Yellowknife was approved with the first sales closing early in the year of 1992. Madam Speaker, in early 1991, the first phase of the long-term strategy was approved which extends the sales to all employees residing in single detached units, including Yellowknife. This was announced in the Assembly on February 27, 1992, with the first sales being closed in August 1992.

Public sales of surplus units began in Yellowknife in September 1992 with the first sales closed by early October in 1992. The present government approved the long-term strategy on November 7, 1992. This was announced in the Assembly and was tabled on December 3, 1992. After discussion and debate, several changes were made, approved by Cabinet and announced in January, February and March of 1993. The December 16, 1993, Cabinet decision extended another round of sales to tenant employees, added multi-plexes and set a process for MLA consultation about what to do with surplus units, if any, in these communities.

Madam Speaker, the long-term staff housing strategy is a plan which is devised to bring about the government's policy of getting out of staff housing. This strategy was designed to help people become more self-sufficient, promote home ownership, develop private rental housing markets, consolidate staff housing functions and aid the transfers of responsibility for public housing to community control. It is not a policy that has been promulgated in the GNWT policy manual. Many other Government of the Northwest Territories policies are not formal, blue-book type policies.

Further Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Strategy
Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
Item 5: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Point of order. Mr. Lewis.

Point Of Order

Further Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Strategy
Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a long response and it is very unclear to me what the question is that this response is being made to.

Further Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Strategy
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The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. There is nothing really in our rules that indicates the time frame that should be allotted for replies to oral questions. However, taking into account here your comments, I will take your point of order under advisement because I do believe somewhere in our rules it does state that the reply to an oral question should answer the question and that I believe the question should be answered in as short a time as possible. So, I will take your point of order under advisement. Thank you. Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Strategy
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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, I apologize for being long-winded about this, but there were many questions and there seems to be some confusion, and I believe I did

have a preamble and I am sorry it is so long, but however, the question was: "What is the policy?"

Madam Speaker, what I was trying to say is that this is not a policy that has been promulgated in the GNWT policy manual. Many other GNWT policies are not formal blue book policies. Blue book policies are descriptions of Cabinet-approved principles, rules, regulations and guidelines for the delivery of certain programs or services or for guiding decision-making on a variety of issues, are of general application and usually concern the interests of the public directly.

Madam Speaker, I have a bit more of an explanation and I hope this would answer the question on the matter of policy and strategy. Many other Government of the Northwest Territories policies exist which would be more properly styled something else such as internal guidelines or procedures.

These include items such as a human resource manual which contains detailed procedures and guidelines for many aspects of human resources. Strategies or plans, a great deal of the present work by Renewable Resources and ED&T flows from strategies they have developed and which have or will receive Cabinet and Assembly review. Although there is not a policy manual, blue book type policy for the strategy, the long-term staff housing strategy is a plan devised to bring about the Government's policy of getting out of staff housing. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Strategy
Question 83-12(5): Location Of Long-term Staff Housing Policy
Item 5: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I do appreciate, even if it was long, the full response to my question since I had asked yesterday if there was a policy and it was taken as notice, so I do appreciate that. I guess what I would like to ask now then, Madam Speaker, as a supplementary, is, now that we know it's not a policy but a plan, is the Premier willing to, since there is much, some confusion anyway, about what's in this plan, is the Premier willing to make this plan available to Members of this House so we can see what's in it? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Madam Premier.

Return To Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, certainly. I believe it was tabled before or circulated and tabled before and we will do it again. Thank you.

Return To Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Madam Speaker, the Premier referred to the strategy tabled December 3, 1992, but she stated just now that on December 16 Cabinet reconsidered the strategy and made other changes allowing a further round of sales and revising this plan, so it's not the previous strategy that I'm interested in, Madam Speaker, it's the new revised, revisited, post-December 16 plan. I wonder if the Premier would be willing to table that plan before the Members. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
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The Speaker

Thank you. On the same topic, Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, certainly. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
Question 84-12(5): Availability Of Guidelines For Staff Housing Strategy
Item 5: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Personnel again. Under the pre-1992 allocation guidelines, locally hired employees were at the bottom of the list for staff housing. Due to the limited number of staff houses, very few locally hired employees could get into the staff housing so there are currently still many of these employees living in level II and III communities who reside in public housing units. Has the Minister now ascertained why staff residing in public housing units were not taken into consideration in developing the long-term staff housing strategy.

The Speaker

Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

Return To Question 85-12(5): Staff Housing For Local Hires
Question 85-12(5): Staff Housing For Local Hires
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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like I indicated before by way of a letter to Mr. Ng, I am willing to work with each MLA and if he can provide the particular names so then I can do something about it. Thank you.

Return To Question 85-12(5): Staff Housing For Local Hires
Question 85-12(5): Staff Housing For Local Hires
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ng.

Supplementary To Question 85-12(5): Staff Housing For Local Hires
Question 85-12(5): Staff Housing For Local Hires
Item 5: Oral Questions

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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Madam Speaker, I don't believe the question was answered and I would like to pose it again. What was the reason that GNWT employees residing in public housing units were not taken into consideration in the development of the long-term housing strategy.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I can't provide the answer right now, but I will provide it to the Member at a later date.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ng.

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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

I would like to ask the Minister, through you, Madam Speaker, will there be another review of this long-term staff housing strategy as a result of the concerns that have been brought forward yesterday and today?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have already indicated, through my letters, that I would work with each MLA. I think that is continuing on the basis of the sales as they are going with the staff. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Final supplementary, Mr. Ng.

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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thanks, Madam Speaker. I'm still not sure if the question was answered. My question was, will there be a review of the long-term staff housing strategy? Not the individual concerns of Members as a whole, but the review by Cabinet of this strategy. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Maybe I could be a little bit more clear. As part of the review, I would like to get the input of each MLA. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Personnel. I would like to know who in the Department of Personnel is responsible for allocating staff housing needs. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to get clarification. Is he asking for the name of the person?

The Speaker

Ms. Mike, he has indicated who in the department of Personnel is responsible for allocating staff units? Is that correct, Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to know if it's a person or a section of the department. It might be a little different from region to region. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The regional superintendents do. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo.

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you. To assist the regional superintendents, does the department have clear, written guidelines regarding the allocation of staff housing which ensures fairness and equitable allocation of available units? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 86-12(5): Individual Responsible For Allocation Of Staff Housing
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo.

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Would the Minister table, in this House, the guidelines for allocating staff housing units?

Supplementary To Question 86-12(5): Individual Responsible For Allocation Of Staff Housing
Question 86-12(5): Individual Responsible For Allocation Of Staff Housing
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, I will.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Allooloo.

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Final supplementary, Madam Speaker. Can the Minister of Personnel assure this House that all decisions regarding staff housing allocation needs as of December 1992 have been made in accordance with her department's guidelines for allocation?

Supplementary To Question 86-12(5): Individual Responsible For Allocation Of Staff Housing
Question 86-12(5): Individual Responsible For Allocation Of Staff Housing
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Question 86-12(5): Individual Responsible For Allocation Of Staff Housing
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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Personnel staff should be allocating fairly to the employees. If they are not, I would like to get names and dates of who they are so we can look into it. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Madam Speaker, I had my hand up for oral questions.

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The Speaker

Mr. Gargan, I recognized your hand after I spoke twice for oral questions. I then stated written questions and your hand went up. If you wish to go back to oral questions, I'm sure you know the rules of our House. Item 6, written questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Madam Speaker, I request unanimous consent to return to item 5, oral questions.

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The Speaker

Thank you. The Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to oral questions. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Proceed, Mr. Gargan. Item 5, oral questions.

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you. To the Minister of Personnel, Madam Speaker. Members are aware that there have been some changes and additions to the long-term staff housing strategy since it was introduced in December of 1991. Can the Minister tell this House the details of any revisions to the strategy which have occurred since she assumed the portfolio in September of 1993?

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't believe there have been any new revisions other than the fact the December 16 decision was the second-phase round of sales of staff housing to those who probably didn't have an opportunity the first time around. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

So if it's not a new revision, then the strategy on the first and second phases are all non-strategies. Am I correct?

Supplementary To Question 87-12(5): Revisions To Staff Housing Strategy Since Minister Took Portfolio
Question 87-12(5): Revisions To Staff Housing Strategy Since Minister Took Portfolio
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. That's correct.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Personnel, is the Minister informed by her staff about these problems that are occurring? I know the Minister is responding to my question that she would like to know if there are essential problems allocating staff housing in fairness and based on need. I know of two audits that the Department of Personnel is doing to find out whether there is fairness or not, based on need allocations. Is the Minister being informed by her department as to what is happening? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, and I have been talking with some of the regional superintendents. Thank you.

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Question 88-12(5): Minister's Knowledge Of Allocation Of Staff Housing
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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne.

Question 89-12(5): Classification Of Public Health Nurses
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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health concerning the classification of public health nurses. I sent a letter to the Minister on January 27 on this subject and I haven't received a reply. The Minister is aware that when we took over Health in 1988 from the federal government, the public health nurses were given a commitment then by the then Minister of Health, by the then Minister of Finance, myself, and the then Premier, that the classification of their position would be looked at and would be adjusted accordingly. They came over to our government on that understanding. Six years later, there has been no action on this commitment by our government. My question to the Minister of Health, what steps is he taking to have this government live up to a very serious commitment made six years ago?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. We are just coming to the end now and should be finished by June or July of this year, the reclassification of in excess of 4,500 positions in the Government of the Northwest Territories. This issue will be dealt with, within the total job reclassification. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

That is well and good, Madam Speaker, but I think we are talking about 20 positions. They were given a specific commitment by this government. These nurses in Yellowknife are the backbone of the health delivery system here in Yellowknife. Everyone who was here during the whooping cough epidemic realized the sort of work that they do. I find it appalling that the government hasn't lived up to that commitment. So I ask the Minister if he will look at this as a very special case and live up to a commitment made by this government over the last six years?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I would point out that the Member who is asking the question, was the government at the time. I will deal with this issue, along with the other job classifications. If there is a priority in this area, then I will look at it as a priority. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, the honourable Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, I will put it on the record. It is a priority. To me, it was such a simple commitment that I had assumed it has been done. This group of nurses is so professional and reasonable that they haven't caused a lot of fuss about it. They have tried very hard to come to some sort of accommodation with the government. So, I will ask again, will the Minister make this a priority and deal with it? The government's credibility is on the line here.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

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Some Hon. Members

(Microphones turned off)

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I will make it a priority. I will go away and look at it and report back to this House tout de suite. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Question 90-12(5): Benefits For Off-highway Communities
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

I should have held my hand higher. Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Social Services and is with regard to benefits. Last week, when I asked her a question on this, she said benefits only apply to Iqaluit and Inuvik because they were off the highway. When I asked the same question again with regard to Inuvik, she said for the purpose of benefits, Inuvik is considered off the highway system. I would like to ask the Minister what other communities are considered off the highway system for the purposes of benefits?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the Minister responsible for Social Services, I don't usually concentrate on which communities are off the highway system. It just so happened that Inuvik...It was my mistake. I didn't even realize it was on the highway system. I forgot about the Dempster Highway. If you really want to know, I could work with my colleague responsible for highways and I could provide you with the number of communities not considered to be on the highway. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Madam Speaker, I was referring specifically to the Department of Personnel and benefits. That is why I directed my question to the Minister responsible. Are there other communities that are classified for benefit purposes off the highway system, for example, Arctic Red River, Fort McPherson, Fort Providence, Fort Smith, Hay River, Yellowknife, Rae Edzo, et cetera.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Initially, your question went to the Minister of Social Services asking for the benefits with regard to what was off-highway, not to the Minister of Personnel with regard to pay and benefits. The Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some communities have a higher cost of living than other communities and that is the purpose of having benefits. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

I appreciate that response, Madam Speaker. Again to the Minister of Personnel, which communities are considered off the highway system in this case?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will provide the list to the Member, if I can find any. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Social Services. Now that she has tackled the issue of the salaries of alcohol and drug treatment centre workers, the solution of which I had the pleasure of announcing on her behalf earlier this session, now that she has basked in the warm glow of approval from having taken that initiative, has she developed a strategy to deal with the bigger question of the wages and benefits for community alcohol and drug workers throughout the Northwest Territories? How is that problem going to be tackled, Madam Speaker? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I indicated during the SCOF review, the community alcohol and drug workers would be looked at and the plan will be in place by September, 1994. So the department is doing something about it. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. That is good news, Madam Speaker. I would like to know a bit more about what the department is planning to do to deal with this issue by September of 1994. What is the process that will be pursued? Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The plans for the alcohol and drug program will be in place, hopefully, by 1994. The Members will be kept informed and consulted with. This may include looking at the agencies that are funded through our alcohol and drug contributions, whether they are making significant differences to the communities in terms of education and awareness or whether it is simply job creation. If that is so, I would like to get some input from each MLA. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I believe that the evaluation of the effectiveness of the community programs is a sensible approach and consulting with MLAs is also a sensible approach. If there are going to be evaluations undertaken, does the Minister intend that there will be some independent review done so that every community is assessed objectively, according to established criteria, so each community is evaluated fairly as compared to every other community. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My preference would be to also work with regional superintendents in that once the criteria is set and the guidelines are set, they oversee the projects rather than the headquarters trying to keep an eye on them from great distances. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for Economic Development and Tourism and it's with regard to a reference made to the department yesterday in the budget address, where it makes reference to the department being reorganized and streamlined, and that decision-making has been decentralized, and that there has been increased authority and responsibility for funding and so forth to transfer to the regional offices. I'm trying to recall whether the Minister made a statement in the last session with regard to that. I would like to ask the Minister,

specifically what changes has this budget address made reference to, and if he could tell the House. Mahsi.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, Mr. Todd.

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I did make a statement earlier in the last session or the one before. The common complaint across the territories over as long as I can remember is the inability for the regions and the communities to move quickly, particularly, in approving loans and grants. So we did get Cabinet approval late in 1993 to designate financial authority to the superintendents for loans and grants to the tune of $250,000. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. Supplementary for the same Minister. This increase in the grants to $250,000, one is for the regional superintendents. That has been in effect since late 1993. I would like to ask the Minister if there is any indication on the success of this new change in policy. Mahsi.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Economic Development, Mr. Todd.

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Approval was, I believe, given in December. The policy has been in place approximately a month and a half. From what I understand, at least initially, that certainly at the superintendent level there is a roar of approval because it means that they don't have to come into the centre and seek approval from the civil servants who are sitting in Yellowknife. I think it's a little early, at this time, to determine whether this initiative that we've taken will, in fact, speed up and make spending more sensitive to community and regional needs. I'm optimistic that it's certainly a step in the right direction. We are reviewing the policy on a quarterly basis in discussions with the superintendents. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Supplementary To Question 92-12(5): Level Of Approval By Regional Staff For Loans And Grants
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you. A simple supplementary. The authority rests solely with the superintendents in the region to make the decision whether to make a loan or a grant up to $250,000. Is that correct, Mr. Minister? Mahsi.

Supplementary To Question 92-12(5): Level Of Approval By Regional Staff For Loans And Grants
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, Mr. Todd.

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John Todd Keewatin Central

We did receive approval from the Business Credit Corporation which is chaired by Mrs. King, to designate that authority to the superintendents at this time. Yes, that is correct.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin South, Mr. Pudlat.

Question 93-12(5): Environmental Impact Of Hydro Quebec Project
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Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question will be regarding environmental protection. Madam Speaker, many times in the past I have spoken about my concerns regarding Hydro Quebec and the huge construction project they want to begin. This is going to affect the people of the Baffin and the Belcher Islands. My question is directed to the Minister responsible for the environment. This will create a huge environmental hazard and environmental impact. Has there been anything more done to increase the protest against the Hydro Quebec project? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, earlier this year or, rather, in the latter part of 1993, Hydro Quebec provided a statement on the environmental impact of the proposed development in the Hudson Bay. We have looked at the statement and have argued that the study is inadequate and that it has to be rewritten and the study, itself, done more in-depth before the study can be taken seriously. This is the work we've done just before Christmas. We have directed our staff to keep abreast of the developments. There haven't been new things happening with regard to that in recent weeks. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Pudlat.

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Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the Minister's response. I wonder once your department has kept abreast of the things happening will you, in turn, keep us abreast of things happening here in the Legislative Assembly? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 93-12(5): Environmental Impact Of Hydro Quebec Project
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, Madam Speaker, I will keep Members informed.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for High Arctic, Mr. Pudluk.

Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health. Where I come from in the High Arctic, last year the people were informed that they had to put protection on their skin against the depletion of the ozone layer. Our skin is sensitive to the ultraviolet rays and people were encouraged to put on some kind of protection. Has the Minister been given further information to advise the residents to protect their skin from the ultraviolet rays? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I think most everybody knows that anywhere the sun is shining there is danger of damage to the skin resulting in melanoma, cancer of the skin, and consequently it's become an increasing health issue. You'll notice that on television now they are giving the UV index to all the communities or all the areas across Canada, so it is still a real concern and, of course, in the High Arctic where the ozone is a little thinner there is apparently increased danger. So we will probably again this year, issue the same kinds of warnings to people through the health centres that they should wear some kind of sun block to prevent the ultraviolet rays from affecting their skin. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Pudluk.

Supplementary To Question 94-12(5): Provision Of Information For Protection Against Uv Rays
Question 94-12(5): Provision Of Information For Protection Against Uv Rays
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Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some of the communities don't have these sun blocks or these creams to protect them from the UV rays. Will the health centres be able to provide these sun blocks and skin protectors for the residents in the High Arctic. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 94-12(5): Provision Of Information For Protection Against Uv Rays
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I'll certainly have the department check on the availability in all the communities of sun blocks. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

Question 95-12(5): Staff Housing For Social Workers
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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Earlier today, we were asking the Minister of Personnel about new positions in the communities. One of my communities is effected because they cannot get a social worker. The community has a population of over 500 and they have been without a social worker for a long time. The department has a position and there is lack of housing. One of my communities, Pond Inlet, is going to be effected as well as the Member from Iqaluit has mentioned today, that the community justice worker position has been approved but there is no housing. I would like to ask the Minister, for these two positions, does the government have a plan to accommodate these two people especially because they are very important, to house them in these two communities?

Question 95-12(5): Staff Housing For Social Workers
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the Minister of Personnel, for those regions I've got the superintendents of Personnel in those regions to inventory the number of staff houses available in those communities and to determine which are most in need of housing. The study is being undertaken right now.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo.

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Doesn't the Minister agree that there is a real need. Social workers are very, very important, they are child welfare people, and they are very important in the community. One of my communities is lacking a social worker. Doesn't she agree that she has to address that one particular community of Hall Beach to accommodate a social worker? Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Personnel, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's not just the community of Hall Beach, especially with social workers. In this case, the same goes for Broughton Island. Our worker there had her own home so anybody who is going to replace her, we may have to locate another house because our worker there who quit owned her own house. So these are the types of things that the regional superintendents will be looking into, to identify what the real needs are. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. He's been pretty quiet there but I couldn't help noticing it. My question is with regard to a change in policy. I received a letter from this Minister, Madam Speaker, with regard to community recreation facilities, and I believe this policy has changed now so that what used to be 40 per cent to 60 per cent contributions by the communities has now been reduced to 1 per cent to 10 per cent contributions. I would like to ask the Minister when this change took place and which communities have more to benefit by this reduction.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't know the answer to the question off by heart so I will have to take the question as notice. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Lewis.

Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Power Corporation a question. During January and part of this month, many Yellowknife residents have been concerned because of loss of power and claim that the huge bills they have to pay for getting their pipes thawed is because of the loss of heating in their houses. So I would like to ask the Minister, are these breakdowns that take place at the coldest time of the year because of the huge demand on the power supply or because of some preventable thing that the Power Corporation could be doing so that accidents like this don't occur and cause great expenses for the citizens of Yellowknife?

Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister responsible for the Power Corporation, Ms. Cournoyea.

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Speaker. To my knowledge, the power outages that were experienced over the cold period of time were not related to the over usage of the power. There were some outages that were related to ravens flying into the telephone lines and a number of other issues but not because of over usage of the power supply. Thank you.

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Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Lewis.

Supplementary To Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

I would like to ask the Minister -- since everything we do we try to judge whether it is effective and whether it is getting better -- whether the Power Corporation keeps a list of its performances, if you like, over the years to show the degree to which communities have a continuous, steady supply of power and are not subject to outages as much as they were in the past. In other words, do they have a system to see if they are getting better because communities are not cut off from power for any length of time.

Supplementary To Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister responsible for the Power Corporation, Ms. Cournoyea.

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, I believe since the Power Corporation was taken over by the Northwest Territories from the federal Crown, that has been one of the main objectives, to secure regular, uninterrupted power for communities. As a result, the Power Corporation has done an evaluation of all the communities, their needs and is also trying to detail projected needs to the best of their ability, and as the Member may be aware, in many instances, the request of communities sometimes would want to have a new power plant, rather than a renovated power plant. But many times, the renovation is opposed because in many of the communities, since communities have grown, the power plant is in the wrong place. However, there is a ten year projection on what the proposed or anticipated requirements of communities are. These plans are put to the Public Utilities Board and as the Power Corporation can supply all the information for legitimizing the installation of these new plants or renovated plants, they are doing so as quickly as possible. I believe one of the main objectives is to secure and provide consistent power to communities. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Lewis.

Supplementary To Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

One has to confirm then that the Power Corporation, since it became a northern-owned Power Corporation, has resulted in a better level of service in communities, including Yellowknife, have fewer outages since we took it over, than we had under the previous regime.

Supplementary To Question 97-12(5): Causes Of Power Outages In Yellowknife
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister responsible for the Power Corporation.

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, to my knowledge, certainly our community visits and the information that has been secured by the Power Corporation, indicate there have been fewer power outages and more consistent service to the customers. But I cannot say that totally, unequivocally for every community in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Finance and it deals with the dreaded payroll tax. It has been about eight months now since the payroll tax was introduced to northerners in an attempt to get money from people who work in the north, not necessarily northerners themselves, but people who earn their money in the north. As a consequence, when filling out this huge net that the government has done in order to catch those dollars, many northerners are being affected to different degrees. Given that it has been several months since the tax was introduced, many suggestions have come forward to the Minister on how to improve this tax regime; suggestions from ultimate removal to raising the ceiling. The Minister said he needed time to do this. I wonder if, in eight months, they have managed to glean enough evidence to see how this system is working in order to be able to fine tune it? Has eight months been enough?

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I think I would have to report it is going fairly well, as far as we are concerned administratively. I don't get nearly as many complaints about the taxes as I used to. Some people were quite surprised to see that there is an enclosure in their tax returns this year where they can get a credit back. We have been analysing the tax. The federal government has now agreed to pay, as everyone knows. There is just one outstanding issue and that is with the Dene Nation. I reported that to the House last year. So I think it is working well. Some of the employers have not reported because they are only supposed to report once a year. So it will be at the 12 month stage where we will be able to analyze it, in its entirety. So we will need another four or five months yet, Madam Speaker, to do the analysis. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

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Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am happy to hear that the Minister has not been receiving as many calls of complaint as I have. He can rest assured that I will pass on all the complaints that I get to him. There are a number of them. What I was after, Madam Speaker, was to see whether or not some of the loop holes that were built into this payroll tax are going to be analyzed and evaluated so there can be some closure. What I am referring to specifically are those people who contribute nothing to the payroll tax, yet receive plenty. I think the Minister is well aware of those corporations that are dodging through these loopholes. I wonder if that kind of thing has been looked at with the information they already have?

Supplementary To Question 98-12(5): Effectiveness Of Administration Of Payroll Tax
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I will have a better idea in four or five months. I know what Mr. Whitford is referring to. Those people who are self-employed, draw by way of dividends, shareholders loans, et cetera, and they are not paying the payroll tax because they are not on the payroll. I regret to inform him that, to date, I have not been able to devise a way through the payroll tax whereby we could net those people. So if we are going to do anything, Madam Speaker, it is going to have to be done by another means. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs and it is with regard to fire fighting, which we recognize as a very important element of our communities. What fire fighting systems are currently used in municipalities throughout the NWT?

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister responsible for Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't know if there is a standard for fire fighting equipment. I will take the question as notice. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Natilikmiot, Mr. Ningark.

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is directed to the Premier. A few years ago, there was a wonderful plan of this government to decentralize government services and programs from regions to smaller communities. In this case, in the Natilikmiot region, we have very few government services and programs decentralized to Gjoa Haven, Taloyoak -- formerly Spence Bay -- and none in Pelly Bay. Through you, Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier if she would provide me with a list of services and programs that will be decentralized to Pelly Bay, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Madam Premier.

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, I will provide a list of some of the services that were transferred. However, from my recollection, most of the transfers were from Cambridge to Coppermine, not in the other direction. But I think there might have been one or two positions. I will provide that information. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Question 101-12(5): Traditional Trapping Areas In Bc
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Renewable Resources. I raised this question a few years ago. It is with regard to Fort Liard and the trappers and the traditional grounds in BC. The BC border is only 20 miles to the south. The traditional grounds are in BC. They are told by the renewable resource officers in BC that if they hunt on their traditional grounds, they can be charged. Has the Minister's department done anything to deal with his counterparts from the province of British Columbia to look into this situation? Mahsi.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, I have no information regarding that issue. I remember it was raised, as the Member said, a couple of years ago. I will have to ask the department to provide the information to the Member and myself. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question I would like to direct to the Premier. A little while ago we received -- and I'm trying to find it here -- a press release concerning the position of the government on the testing of the cruise missiles, and the lack of consultation that took place between Ottawa and this government. I think it was relatively strongly worded, Madam Speaker, that the government was upset, that they were not consulted, given the position that the government and Members had taken some time ago on future testing. Yet they went ahead. What I got out of the press release was that they wanted to be involved with future discussions about nature. I just wondered if the federal government has responded to the Premier yet on her initiatives to be consulted on such matters as cruise testing, closing of bases and things like that.

The Speaker

Thank you. Madam Premier.

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Speaker. In the January 14 letter to the Honourable David Collenette, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans' Affairs, we did, again, raise strong opposition. As all the Members know, there have been several resolutions and motions in this House opposing cruise missile testing. Earlier, it was reported in the House of Commons that they did not intend to continue with the missile testing. But upon reviewing their position, I guess there was some type of commitment they had to live up to, or obligation that the federal government had to live up to.

The federal government has indicated that they plan to proceed with two missile testings. Then, after that, they would be reviewing and evaluating the whole issue. At this point in time we have not received a written message back from the federal government that they would consult with the Northwest Territories government, however it's been stated in the House of Commons that they do intend to consult when they are reviewing the whole operation of cruise missile testing. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Supplementary To Question 102-12(5): Federal Response To GNWT's Request For Consultation On Cruise Missile Testing
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Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The matter of consultation, although I guess the government is the lead player in this dialogue that will take place, there are a number of Members who are directly involved with it because their ridings are in the path of any future testing that may take place. Can the Premier advise me on who the lead Minister would be in this particular event, and whether or not -- well, there may be two questions here, Madam Speaker -- there will be any room for involvement of certain Members in any future consultation on this matter?

Supplementary To Question 102-12(5): Federal Response To GNWT's Request For Consultation On Cruise Missile Testing
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The Speaker

There were two questions, Mr. Whitford. Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 102-12(5): Federal Response To GNWT's Request For Consultation On Cruise Missile Testing
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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, because of the Members' very strong opposition to cruise missiles, I thought it was necessary, as Government Leader, to compose a letter and send it to the Minister responsible at the federal level. However, I've requested that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, along with the federal Minister, would be the lead contact in this matter. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Amittuq, Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some time ago, prior to 1987, there was a question posed to the government from the Member for High Arctic, with regard to photo flashes that happened between 1955 and 1958 in the north Baffin area during the darkest time. I'm not too sure who to address my question to, maybe to the Premier. I remember when I was a kid playing outside, the night became brighter than daylight. During the darkest time, the sun is away for a period of time. That experience was experienced by lots of hunters. It was really scary. Later on we learned that the US government was doing some studies. From the airplanes they would drop something. Just following that they would

photograph it with classes of photos, how it was descending. To this day, the Member for High Arctic and I have never found out what they were experimenting with. I would like to know if the government could attempt to find out, on behalf of the people of north Baffin, what that material was that was being photographed? Thank you.

The Speaker

Mr. Allooloo, your question could be posed to the Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, but at the same time I want to remind Members that oral questions are posed and the answers for oral questions should be with the Minister who is available. I believe your concern could probably be more appropriately addressed under written questions. I don't believe that would be the knowledge of a Minister with respect to the rules under our oral questions. Thank you. Therefore, I rule your question out of order. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Justice has made a statement with regard to the constable pilot project. He selected two communities, Fort Good Hope and Coral Harbour. He also selected six people from each of those communities to go to Regina for three weeks to train. The program is for three weeks. I would like to ask the Minister why he hasn't selected five other communities to take part in that program, and why only two designated communities.

The Speaker

Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, the pilot projects were initiated and carried out in large part by the RCMP. When the suggestions came as to the two communities they had targeted, I had indicated to them at that time, that surely somebody will be questioning the selection of Good Hope as one of the pilot communities because it is my home town and it is also in my constituency. I asked them if they would reconsider it, they took it and came back and said those were the communities they had selected because of the interest of the individual members in those detachments, the kind of informal response that they got from the communities after discussing it. It's the RCMP that selected or picked the two communities as the Member says, and it was the RCMP as well, with the community leaders in those two communities, that selected the six people to go to Regina. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I don't know how or why the selection was done on those two communities, but I would like to ask the Minister whether or not, since the RCMP was so involved with the selection, other communities were also consulted before the final decision was made or was this because Fort Good Hope showed a continued interest. How can every community show interest if there is no interest by this government to even consider them?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, the projects are pilot projects. It's primarily pilot projects to see how well the RCMP in these communities can work in a new arrangement with individual members of these communities and it was, in a large part, the judgment call of the RCMP. Beyond that, I can't second guess what was going on in the minds of the people within the RCMP who made these decisions, except to say that I will enquire about it and provide to the Member and other Members whatever information and briefing material the RCMP provides me with, with regard to this question. It can be awkward, I guess, particularly because if Good Hope found out that they were selected but then ticked off the list because I was the MLA, there would be a great political cost to me for no good reason. On the other hand, there is the fact that it is my home town and my constituency and so there is a lot of reason to hope that the pilot projects go well, more than a good reason, I suppose, so the Member does bring up a sensitive point. I can only ask the RCMP to explain perhaps more clearly, in more detail, how they picked the two communities that they did. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Again, to the Minister of Justice, since they are the communities, this government and the federal government have chosen to take the initiative, which government is paying for that program?

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The Speaker

Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, it's about 52/48 for the federal government, that is, they pay, I think, 52 per cent and we pay 48 per cent. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

I would think that paying 48 per cent of any cost would also require some influence on your part to determine which communities would get that. Did you use that percentage base in order to also influence who or did you just leave this open for the federal government only? Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, I understand what the Member is suggesting, but it doesn't really factor in quite that way because it is, as I say, a pilot project. The people up front carrying out this pilot project are the RCMP. The Government of the Northwest Territories itself doesn't have any front line people involved in this so we had left it largely to the RCMP and the community to take the initiative on it. Whether it works or doesn't work is largely going to be on those two principal players and we have agreed to fund these projects because we think they are going to turn out well. Other than that, we have to trust the good judgment of these two parties that are principally engaged here. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. The time for oral questions has lapsed. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, replies to budget address. Item 10, petitions. Before we go on to reports of standing and special committees, the House will recess for 15 minutes. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

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The Speaker

I will call the House back to order. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. In accordance with its terms of reference, the Standing Committee on Finance is pleased to submit its report on the review of the 1994-95 main estimates of the Government of the Northwest Territories.

Introduction

The Standing Committee on Finance for the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories has reviewed the proposed operations and maintenance estimates for the 1994-95 fiscal year. The committee reviewed all government departments with the exception of the Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, which is contained in the Department of the Executive. The ministry will be reviewed during the current session of the Legislative Assembly.

The Members of the Standing Committee on Finance devoted a lot of time and effort to this process. The committee chair wishes to thank Members for their participation and their contribution to this report. In addition, the chair would like to thank the Ministers and their staff for their contribution to and participation in this process. Finally, the chair would like to thank our committee staff for their support and contributions.

The committee realizes and appreciates the political climate that we are facing today. The Government of the Northwest Territories is proposing to spend slightly over $1 billion in 1994-95 to run the Government of the Northwest Territories. The majority of revenue for this budget, an estimated $878 million, will come from the Government of Canada through the formula financing agreement.

The formula financing agreement of the Government of Canada expires March 31, 1995. Therefore, negotiations for a new funding arrangement have recently commenced. The Standing Committee on Finance has some strong suggestions regarding how government should approach these new negotiations.

Political And Economic Climate

The Government of the Northwest Territories is entering into year three of its four year mandate. The mid-term Cabinet review has been completed. Preparation for division is under way and land claims settlements across the territories are at various stages of negotiation and implementation. Members of the Legislative Assembly are about to review the main estimates for the fiscal year 1994-95.

This review takes place in the context of a number of outstanding funding issues in dispute with the federal government. Included among the outstanding issues are the following:

- funding for social housing;

- health billings dispute; and,

- RCMP billing for the Giant Mine labour dispute.

Funding negotiations with the federal government will continue in the following areas:

- formula financing agreement - the current agreement expires March 31, 1995;

- transportation agreements - Arctic "A" airports, highways;

- the northern accord;

- the mineral accord;

- the Government of Canada's new infrastructure program; and,

- incremental costs of division of the Northwest Territories.

Other significant issues which remain outstanding, and create uncertainty for fiscal planning include the following:

- the impact of the North American free trade agreement on the Northwest Territories business incentive policy and buy north initiative;

- provincial and territorial responses to the federal reduction in the tobacco tax;

- any changes affecting the interprovincial trade barriers;

- the impact of animal rights groups on the fur industry; and, - any new initiative or changes in the federal Human Resource Development ministry, including western economic diversification.

The new Liberal government of Canada took office in November, 1993. At that time, it was speculated that the deficit for the current fiscal year would be as high as $48 billion, much higher than estimated in last spring's budget. The Liberal government's approach to the country's economy is described in the following excerpt from its campaign Red Book, "Creating Opportunity - the Liberal Plan for Canada."

"We are profoundly optimistic about the future of Canada. We do not believe that the only solution to our economic problems is another five years of cutbacks, job losses and diminished expectations. We believe we have to take immediate measures to make our economy grow and create jobs. We believe that Canada has both the human and natural resources to solve its problems. We see enormous opportunities for Canada, both at home and internationally, to create a strong economy and a vibrant, creative society."

The new Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has committed to negotiate a definition of self-government over the next six months with aboriginal groups, provinces and territories. The Prime Minister has acknowledged that the renewed efforts are proceeding without a constitutional amendment. He said that the constitution already recognizes self-government and can be amended later, if need be.

Committee Mandate

The primary task of the Standing Committee on Finance, as outlined in the committee's terms of reference, is to undertake a detailed examination of the government's annual budget and its related fiscal operations. Specifically, the primary purpose of this review is outlined in the following statement:

- to review and recommend on the preparation of estimates, expenditures and appropriations required to defray the charges and expenses of the public service of the territories in each fiscal year.

Also during this review, the committee focused on three other aspects of its terms of reference. These include the following items:

- in consultation with the chairman of the Financial Management Board, examine and recommend the terms and conditions of any agreement relating to financial arrangements with the Government of Canada;

- review, evaluate and recommend on any revenue sources that may be available to the territories; and,

- review financial implications of existing and proposed territorial programs and the financing thereof, as well as any other programs which may, in future, become a charge against the territorial budget.

The committee intends to fulfil its mandate, on behalf of the Assembly and the people of the Northwest Territories and to ensure that the government is financially responsible.

Approach To 1994-95 O and M Review

Committee Members approached the review of the 1994-95 main estimates with the following guidelines in mind:

- Members were very aware of the need to continue to avoid an accumulated deficit. The Government of the Northwest Territories is the only jurisdiction in the country that has so far managed to avoid accumulating a deficit. It is important to maintain this trend, particularly in view of the territories' financial independence on the federal government;

- on the other hand, the committee was alert to any opportunities to increase territorial revenues and decrease this dependence;

- as well, Members looked, through their review of government operations, for ways and means to streamline and economize; and,

- finally, economic and business opportunities were carefully examined for opportunities to allow all northerners to becoming increasingly self-sufficient.

Review Theme

The committee's review of the 1994-95 main estimates was conducted in the context of the larger issues of overall government fiscal policy and effective resource management. Committee Members carefully reviewed new government initiatives and initiatives currently under way, to see if they complied with government policies and noting the resource requirements.

Through the review, committee Members focused on finding solutions to problems identified. New and innovative approaches to conducting the business of government were explored and are reported in this document.

Overview Of Report

Following this introduction is a discussion of the process that the committee used to review the 1994-95 main estimates. A discussion of the fiscal framework within which these estimates were developed follows. An overview of the budget and a discussion of some government-wide issues is described in the next section of this report. Finally, the bulk of the report is comprised of detailed reviews of each government department.

At this point in time, Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the deputy chair of the Standing Committee on Finance to help me read this document. Mahsi.

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The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Committee Review Process

Outstanding Issues

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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. During a review of the 1994-95 main estimates, the committee considered outstanding issues such as deficit management and the housing crisis, and

the role that the committee should play in the resolution of these issues. Those major outstanding issues are addressed in the two recommendations made in the committee's last report to the Legislative Assembly, "Response to the Options Paper on Deficit Management," which was tabled on December 14, 1993.

These two recommendations are presented below.

The first recommendation from the response to the options paper on deficit management. The committee recommends that the Department of Finance and the Financial Management Board develop a short-term strategy, aimed at avoiding deficit financing, to guide fiscal management for the 1994-95 fiscal year. This short-term strategy should be presented to the Standing Committee on Finance at the commencement of the committee's meetings on January 10, 1994, and should include the following:

- A discussion of the underlying principles, priorities and objectives;

- A discussion and assessment of deficit reduction options;

- A detailed deficit reduction plan for 1994-95; and

- Details of any federal/provincial/territorial plans for deficit reduction.

In his opening remarks to the Standing Committee on Finance, the Chairman of the Financial Management Board informed committee Members that the government has a long term strategy for achieving financial restraint. He went on to say that this strategy has been publicly stated on several occasions and was perhaps best articulated in the Premier's February 1992 statement on Reshaping Northern Government.

Second Recommendation From The Response To The Options Papers On Deficit Management

That the Financial Management Board develop an integrated plan and political strategy that brings together the major financial issues facing the GNWT. There should be one package presented to the federal government that incorporates such issues as health billings, forest fire suppression costs, formula financing agreement, and incremental added costs for division, land claims implementation and others. It should include revenue producing responsibilities such as the northern accord and a mining accord. The Financial Management Board should develop possible compromises and trade-offs among these issues and develop the political strategy to achieve the following results:

- certainty of adequate funding to create and sustain two new territories with no diminished level of service;

- each territory to be given the economic tools necessary to lessen their dependence on the federal government - for example, northern accord, mining accord.

- a ten year financial agreement with the federal government to provide a basis of fiscal stability in order to facilitate the orderly constitutional evolution of two new territories.

The plan and the political strategy should be available to the Standing Committee on Finance for review in February, 1994.

The committee was informed that the chairman of the Financial Management Board is in the process of developing an integrated plan and political strategy and was encouraged by this preliminary response to the second recommendation.

In view of these important and timely recommendations, the committee decided to take a proactive approach to reviewing the 1994-95 O and M budget. This proactive approach is outlined as follows:

- the committee continued to encourage the government to take a lead role in establishing and implementing a responsible and responsive overall fiscal policy;

- the committee must be kept informed of, and have the opportunity to review, all major fiscal policy decisions and political strategies; and,

- throughout the review, the committee made a number of practical and concrete suggestions regarding fiscal strategy, revenue generation and potential programs and initiatives.

Review Process

The Standing Committee on Finance met in Yellowknife from January 10 to January 27, 1994, to conduct the review of the 1994-95 main estimates of the Government of the Northwest Territories. The review process is outlined below.

The committee met the first day, in camera, to discuss the following items:

- outstanding issues;

- committee schedule and approach;

- committee themes, strategies and the review process; and,

- budget overview.

An initial briefing session was held with the chairman of the Financial Management Board. The following topics were discussed:

- deficit management strategy;

- budget overview;

- fiscal framework;

- briefings/updates on the following topics:

- reorganization of Executive management functions;

- decentralization initiatives;

- privatization initiatives;

- collective bargaining; and, - formula financing.

Departmental reviews were conducted department by department. The review process for each department involved the following steps:

1. in camera review of the departments' estimates;

2. Ministers' appearance before the committee to answer questions and provide additional information that the committee required to complete its inquiry; and,

3. in camera wrap-up session to assess all available information for the department and decide on the discussion and recommendations to be included in this report to the Legislative Assembly.

A final review session was held with the chairman of the Financial Management Board to address any remaining outstanding issues.

Delivery Of Documents

The committee was not satisfied with the fact that the Financial Management Board was unable to provide the documents for this review by the promised delivery date. The result was that the committee was unable to do as much preparation as it would have liked prior to the scheduled meetings.

Scheduling

The Finance Committee made many concessions to accommodate the travel and meeting schedules of Ministers when departmental appearances were scheduled. Committee Members felt that this courtesy was not returned. Committee meetings are scheduled well in advance and Members feel that these schedules and work plans must be respected.

Madam Speaker, I would like to refer back to the chairman of the committee.

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The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Madam Speaker.

Fiscal Framework

In his opening remarks to the committee, the chairman of the Financial Management Board said that our fiscal situation has improved slightly since December 1993. The improvement is due to new information being taken into account in the calculation of the formula financing grant. The chairman reported that, for the 1994-95 fiscal year, the shortfall is estimated at $14 million rather than $20 million as previously estimated.

Budget Strategy

The government informed the committee that it is following a long-term strategy of creating a "more efficient, more productive, and more responsive government." While fully recognizing the importance of this strategy, the committee is concerned that other...

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The Speaker

I am sorry, Mr. Antoine. There has been a point of order raised by the Premier. Madam Premier, your point of order.

Point Of Order

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

The document that is being read is very critical. We would like to follow it. We do not have a copy of the document. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you, Madam Premier. You do not have a point of order. The necessity for Members to have a copy of the document which is being read is at the time when the document is being introduced into committee of the whole, a motion being introduced in this House. But, it is part of his responsibility, under the item reports of standing and special committees, to read this particular document. However, in the past, it has been the courtesy of chairmen of committees to ensure that a document is available for Members. I am advised that documents are now being printed and will be available for the Members. Thank you. The honourable member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to apologize to the House for not having the documents available for viewing as I am speaking, but it is being distributed right now, so I will resume.

Budget Strategy

The government informed the committee that it is following a long-term strategy of creating a "more efficient, more productive, and more responsive government". While fully recognizing the importance of this strategy, the committee is concerned that other equally important strategic objectives may be overshadowed.

One of the critical elements in ensuring future fiscal stability for the NWT lies in the development of a stronger local revenue base. The more revenue we, as northerners, can generate and control, the more we will be in control of our future. It is for this reason that the successful negotiation of the northern accord and the mineral accord is so crucial. Successful completion of these agreements with the federal government will allow us to make our own decisions about priorities in the areas such as finance, economic development and environmental protection.

In view of the fact that all of these fiscal policy matters are inter-related, Members would like to emphasize the message contained in the second recommendation of the committee's response to the option paper "Report on Deficit Management", that is, the committee encourages the government to continue developing and implementing a budget strategy using the concept of the package approach. The package approach is comprehensive and incorporates issues such as health billings, funding for social housing, incremental added cost to division, land claims implementation, the formula financing agreement and others. Also included are revenue producing initiatives such as the northern accord and the mineral accord.

Financial Management Trends

The committee decided to examine the issue of fiscal management over the long term. A number of items were viewed over a ten-year period. These items include the following:

- total revenues;

- budgeted and actual expenditures; and,

- annual and accumulated surplus/deficit.

Figure 1 depicts the NWT yearly and accumulated surpluses/deficits from 1983-84 fiscal year to projections for fiscal year 1993-94. Table 1 on the following page provides the corresponding figures for annual surplus or deficit, accumulated surplus and surplus or deficit percentage. So there are two pages following this one, figure 1 and table 1. No, they are just one page. They are both on that one page.

The present Government of the Northwest Territories Legislative Assembly is the third successful government and legislature that has taken a fiscally cautious approach managing public money. Although the times have changed and issues are more complex, the actual financial results have remained remarkably stable.

The 10th Assembly and government came into power with a $50 million accumulated surplus and left office four years later with a $40 million surplus accumulated. The 11th Assembly and government served for four years, and there was a $50 million surplus accumulated at the end of their final budget year. The current Assembly and government, the 12th, inherited that large accumulated -- there is a typo there -- surplus. Over two years later, on January 11, 1994, the Finance Minister informed the Standing Committee on Finance that the government was projecting a $42 million accumulated surplus for the fiscal year-end, 1993-94. This amount is about the same as surplus which had been accumulated a decade ago at the end of the 1984-85 fiscal year.

These three governments, for six of the last ten years, have produced annual surpluses and have balanced the overall budget over the entire ten-year period. This is an achievement unparalleled in Canada. The Government and the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories have managed their finances better than all other jurisdictions in Canada over the past decade. This fiscal prudence should be considered a very positive achievement in Ottawa. The Government of Canada should not use the fact that the Northwest Territories have managed to maintain an accumulating surplus position as an excuse to reduce funding in the formula agreement.

However, while recognizing this admirable fiscal performance, we need to maintain an awareness of the serious fiscal problems that face us. The gravity of the situation is not as dramatic as was forecast two years ago, but it could deteriorate very quickly and we must continue to be vigilant. Many outstanding financial issues are still being negotiated. There should be a period there and a typo here again. The Finance Minister should be supported in maintaining his cautious approach to the budget, and you could add it in. There's a typo here as well. However, there are dangers in overstating the problems. Investor and consumer confidence have been hurt as a result of dire fiscal predictions during the last two years.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that firm government action in contract negotiation, downsizing and streamlining have had a positive impact on the fiscal position. Overall, the Finance Minister has done a good a job in continuing to steer the government clear of accumulated debt. However, the government should strive to pursue a careful and balanced approach in the future.

The present formula financing agreement, although flawed in some areas, has provided a good measure of stability. However, the federal government has been reducing funding to the Northwest Territories in areas not covered by the agreement. A prime and significant example of this type of funding cut is the $100 million in health billings and the reduction of $47 million to support social housing.

Deficit Management

All the northerners must realize that our financial position is extremely vulnerable. Because of its limited tax base, the Government of the Northwest Territories is dependent on federal funding for some 80 per cent of its expenditure needs. For the fiscal year of 1992-93, only 12 per cent of government revenues came from taxation. The balance is from multiple small sources.

Many large fiscal issues such as the pay equity and health billings disputes and the shortfall in social housing remain outstanding. In addition, the federal government is seeking ways and means to deal with its own deficit situation and, as a result, has cut funding in critical areas such as official languages and have off-loaded fiscal responsibilities in other areas such as health billings and providing housing to aboriginal people. The cumulative affect of all these factors is to increase the burden on the Government of the Northwest Territories. In response, the government must develop effective strategies to ensure that the Government of Canada lives up to its fiduciary responsibilities. As well, the Government of the Northwest Territories must continue to be vigilant in monitoring and streamlining the costs of providing essential services and renew efforts in identifying new and innovative approaches to generating revenue.

The committee is very aware of the fact that the 1994-95 capital and main estimates do not allocate funding to address the serious shortfall in housing. This shortfall has been offset to some degree in the current 1993-94 fiscal year by generating one-time revenue from the sale of staff housing. This is an option that, obviously, does not remain open. Other means must be found to deal with this very serious funding shortfall.

Budget Overview

Spending Priorities

The government did not submit a clear statement of its spending priorities to accompany the 1994-95 main estimates. Committee Members would like to reiterate the position they took during the review of the 1994-95 capital estimates and encourage the government to make a firm public commitment to education as the top spending priority. This position, as noted in the committee's report on the review of the 1994-95 capital estimates, is not in any way intended to undermine the importance of housing as a spending priority. However, the committee firmly believes that two factors need to be considered:

- First, it is felt that the number one priority assigned to capital spending on housing by the government is due to the crisis situation created by the withdrawal of federal funding. And,

- Second, if the federal government were to live up to its fiduciary responsibility, then the Government of the Northwest Territories could shift its priority from housing to education.

The committee's rationale for suggesting education as a number one spending priority is based on a number of considerations:

- The committee believes that it is through an investment in education that we may become more independent of the federal government.

- By educating young people we will be able to build a stronger economic base.

- With an educated population, there should be less reliance on other programs such as social housing and social services.

Therefore, the committee recommends that future budgets, both capital and operating, should clearly reflect the government's commitment to education as the number one spending priority. Further, the committee urges the government to develop a comprehensive and detailed statement of these spending priorities to be included in future budget documents. This statement of spending priorities should note any changes to previous priorities and include the rationale for and consequences of the recommended order of priorities.

Definitive Objectives

During the review of the 1994-95 main estimates, the Finance Committee noted that the definitive objectives provided for each department do not seem to be tied to the budget process in any meaningful way. Committee Members feel that in order to guide the budget process, definitive objectives are required and need to be:

a) specific;

b) attainable within the fiscal year;

c) measurable; and,

d) include milestone and target dates.

In many instances, the departmental definitive objectives lacked some or all of these characteristics.

Recommendation 1

The committee recommends that the Financial Management Board direct all government departments to review and report progress on all of the definitive objectives contained in the 1994-95 main estimates documents. These reports should be provided to the Standing Committee on Finance one week prior to the commencement of the review of the 1995-96 main estimates.

Further, the committee recommends that all future main estimates documents contain a status report of departmental accomplishments in relation to its definitive objectives for the fiscal year preceding the one under review.

The Need To Priorize Government Initiatives

While reviewing the 1994-95 main estimates, the committee noted an extremely ambitious schedule of recent and new initiatives being proposed for the upcoming fiscal year. Table two, which appears at the end of this section, provides an outline of the major government initiatives described in the departmental definitive objectives and by the Ministers when they appeared before the committee. While most of the proposed initiatives sound very good by themselves, committee Members are very concerned about the government's ability to accomplish all that has been set out within the limits of the resources available. The committee would prefer to see departments and the government, as a whole, assess and establish priorities for all of these initiatives and tackle only the top priorities. There is a need to do a few things well as opposed to a lot of things poorly. Committee Members feel that it is important government resources are allocated in a planned and focused manner and not be spread too thinly.

Recommendation 2

The committee recommends that all departments and the government, as a whole, develop a priorized list of planned initiatives, with descriptions of the type and availability of resources required and realistic time frames required for implementation for the fiscal year 1994-95. The committee recommends that departmental responses be available to the committee prior to departmental budgets being reviewed in committee of the whole. The government-wide response should be provided prior to concluding the review in committee of the whole.

The committee recommends further that in future main estimates documents, major initiatives should be contained in each department's definitive objectives. The Standing Committee on Finance should receive, one week prior to its review of the main estimates, an analysis of the resources and time required for all major initiatives being proposed for the fiscal year under review.

Madam Speaker, that concludes the overview comments for the Standing Committee on Finance report on the 1994-95 main estimates.

Motion To Move Committee Report 2-12(5) Into Committee Of The Whole, Carried

Therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Kitikmeot, that the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the review of the 1994-95 main estimates be received and moved into committee of the whole for consideration today. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

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Item 11: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees

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The Speaker

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion.

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An Hon. Member

Question.

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The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. The honourable Member for Keewatin Central, Mr. Todd.

Bill 9: An Act To Amend The Motor Vehicles Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Bill 9, An Act to Amend the Motor Vehicles Act, be read for the second time.

Madam Speaker, this bill amends the Motor Vehicles Act to put the terms "license plates" and "validation stickers" in the singular in order to allow the use of a single license plate and validation sticker. The amendments also establish which vehicles must have a license plate on the front and which much have a license plate on the back. It also clarifies the regulation making power concerning fees by prescribing the establishment of a formula or method of calculating fees instead of prescribing fees.

Bill 9: An Act To Amend The Motor Vehicles Act
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The Speaker

Thank you. To the principle of the bill.

Bill 9: An Act To Amend The Motor Vehicles Act
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An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 9: An Act To Amend The Motor Vehicles Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Bill 9 has had second reading and accordingly, the bill stands referred to committee. Item 18, second reading of bills. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput, that Bill 11, An Act to Amend the Safety Act, be read for the second time.

Madam Speaker, this bill amends the Safety Act by increasing the maximum fines payable by a person found guilty of an offence under the Safety Act. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. To the principle of the bill.

Bill 11: An Act To Amend The Safety Act
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An Hon. Member

Question.

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The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Those abstaining? Bill 11 has had second reading and accordingly, the bill stands referred to committee. Item 18, second reading of bills. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 12: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Bill 12, An Act to Amend the Wildlife Act, be read for the second time.

This bill amends the Wildlife Act to provide for the recognition and implementation of the Inuvialuit final agreement.

Bill 12: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 149

The Speaker

Thank you. To the principle of the bill.

Bill 12: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
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An Hon. Member

Question.

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The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Those abstaining? Bill 12 has had second reading and accordingly, the bill stands referred to committee. Item 18, second reading of bills. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput, that Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, be read for the second time.

Madam Speaker, this bill provides that indemnities paid to Members under the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act for the 1994-95 fiscal year will not be adjusted to accord with changes in the consumer price index. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member of North Slave.

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the purpose of the bill has been explained by the Minister sponsoring Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. Could I ask the Minister what the rationale is, as to why they are proposing that in the 1994-95 fiscal year the adjustment to the changes in the consumer price index not to be adhered to as it is stated in the current bill?

The Speaker

Mr. Zoe, according to our rules, when we are discussing the principle of the bill, Members have the choice to either speak for the bill or against the bill. Members cannot question the Ministers on a particular bill until it gets

into committee of the whole. Therefore, I recognize Mr. Zoe. To the principle of the bill.

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker. When we first amended the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act as it is now, today, we are looking at the amendment today to adjust it in accordance with changes to the consumer price index. I supported that particular bill when we first debated it. The changes that are incorporated in the existing Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act was done for a specific purpose, so that Members would get adjustments according to the consumer price index. Everyone in this House, including the government, it was a government sponsored bill at that particular time when the government supported it. Now, they are reneging or going back and saying that they don't support what is in the current bill now. That is why they are making amendments pertaining to that. It was a government sponsored bill at that time. I was totally convinced and I still believe in the current Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. I am totally against what the government is doing pertaining to the amendment that is being proposed. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Lewis.

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Whenever you are asked to vote on a bill, you are to ask yourself, "What is the purpose of this bill?" Clearly, the purpose of this bill is to make a small cut of a couple of per cent on the indemnities for 24 people. I have not heard anybody calculating what the cost is going to be. Whenever we talk about principle, what is the principle of the bill? The principle of the bill we are trying to amend is that, if you wanted to buy an orange last year, it would have cost you so much, then you should be able to buy the same orange this year and it wouldn't cost you any more because your money will, in fact, be protected from inflation. That was the principle that we used to decide that we should, at least, have an increase to keep pace with inflation. That is the first principle that we voted on previously. Members are going to ask themselves, "What is the new principle for, in fact, getting rid of that bill so that it no longer has a protection for people who want to buy that orange that they bought for a certain amount last year and can't buy it for the same amount this year?"

The most cynical view of this bill, Madam Speaker, is that what we are doing is sacrificing these 24 people. It is a very small sacrifice. It is a tiny little sacrifice. But, for many people out there, and they number in several thousands, I believe, they will take the cynical view that what we are doing here is to take a very small amount of money from 24 people so that a thousand or five thousand people will lose considerably more if you look at the total amount of money that is going to be lost.

I am supporting the bill because that is the principle. The principle is that we are going to take an amount of money from 24 people because we want to give a message to the other 5,000 people that they are going to have to sacrifice as well. Let's be honest about what the purpose is. The purpose is to tell people that there is going to be a cut. There are going to be tough times ahead. These 24 people are going to show the way by taking this tiny amount of money so they can save several hundreds of thousands of dollars from the larger group of people who would be affected. Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Keewatin Central, Mr. Todd.

An Hon. Member

Question.

The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Bill 8 has had second reading.

---Carried

Accordingly, the bill stands referred to a committee.

--- Applause

Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95; Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business; Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards An NWT Mineral Strategy; Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning Strategy; Tabled Document 3-12(5), Towards a Strategy to 2010: A Discussion Paper; Tabled Document 11-12(5), First Annual Report of the Languages Commissioner of the NWT for the year 1992-93, with the honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford, in the chair. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

The committee will now come to order. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that we would like to get into consideration of Bill 1 in committee of the whole and start off with the Executive right after we have a short break.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. We will be looking at Bill 1. Prior to that, there is a request that we take a break. We shall, therefore, take a 15 minute break.

--- SHORT RECESS

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 150

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

The committee will again come to order. We are dealing with Bill 1 and Committee Report 2-12(5). The usual procedure is that we proceed with general comments on Bill 1. Any advice from the committee? There are no comments on Bill 1. We will move into Committee Report 2-12(5). Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that we are dealing with Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95 in conjunction with the standing committee report I presented this afternoon, and we are in general comments now. Am I correct, Mr. Chairman?

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

It is the committee's wish, Mr. Zoe. I did ask for general comments on exactly what you put forward. Do you wish to comment on Bill 1 and the committee report? Proceed.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some general comments before we get into the details of the budget. I totally agree with the report that was produced by the Standing Committee on Finance. There are a number of recommendations in the report that I fully support. With regard to the issues that are raised in the overall section of the committee's report, I would like to re-emphasize that the government was aware of all these outstanding issues that were identified in the Standing Committee on Finance report. The government was trying to resolve these issues with Ottawa on an issue-by-issue basis. Then the package approach was suggested. In yesterday's Minister's budget address, there was no mention of the package approach suggested by the standing committee. I am curious as to why this overall package was not developed and proceeded with, with the new government that is in place now.

Mr. Chairman, the other issue that I wanted to comment on is in the area of our accumulated surplus. For the last ten years, our government has been managing our affairs very well. We have been tough with our programs and services in terms of controlling our costs, but not at the expense of our agreement that we have with Ottawa. If our true costs are not reflected in our budget, then how can we go, on the other hand, and negotiate with the federal government saying, here are our true costs. For instance, for Social Services, we know for a fact, Mr. Chairman, that, because of our limited resources, the true cost is not reflected in our government. We know that if you take the Department of Social Services as an example, if you break it down even further, just look at the drug and alcohol program, we know that there aren't enough resources. That is why we are having problems at the community level in terms of their funding for drug and alcohol programs. I can use a number of examples. That is what I am saying. If we don't show our actual costs, how could we go to Ottawa and say, here are our costs, and negotiate a proper agreement with Ottawa. I am questioning that whole area of our true costs.

Because we have been controlling our costs, it may hurt us when we are negotiating with the federal government. That is why I think the package approach would benefit more because we can wheel and deal. We can give a little here or gain here, but, overall, you may come out ahead. I agree that the strategy of putting the package together would have been better for the government to pursue, but it doesn't seem like that is going to be the case, as outlined in the Minister's budget address yesterday. I have some concerns there. In the long run, we are just fooling ourselves, because our true costs aren't reflected. There are many programs within this government where the true costs aren't reflected because we are controlling our costs. That is an area that I have concerns in, Mr. Chairman.

Generally, I agree with the comments and recommendations that have been produced by the standing committee. I commend the chairman and the deputy for producing this report. I think it is well done and I agree with the comments. Mahsi.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Are there any general comments? Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From the opening report that I made for the Standing Committee on Finance, there are two recommendations that I would like to read at this time.

Committee Motion 1-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 1, Carried
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

The first recommendation is, I move that the committee recommends that the Financial Management Board direct all government departments to review and report progress on all of the definitive objectives contained in the 1994-95 main estimate documents. These reports should be provided to the Standing Committee on Finance one week prior to commencement of the review of the 1995/96 Main Estimates. Further, the committee recommends that all future main estimates documents contain the status report of departmental accomplishments in relation to its definitive objectives for the fiscal year preceding the one under review. Thank you.

Committee Motion 1-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 1, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. We have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. It is being circulated to you as we speak. It has been translated. It will just be a couple of seconds until you all get them. There's a motion on the floor.

Committee Motion 1-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 1, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 151

An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 1-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 1, Carried
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Page 151

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Recommendation number two, I move that the committee recommends that all departments and government as a whole develop a priorized list of planned initiatives, with descriptions of the type and availability of resources required and realistic time frames required for implementation for the fiscal year 1994-95. The committee recommends that the departmental response be available to the committee prior to departmental budgets being reviewed in committee of the whole. The government-wide response should be provided prior to concluding the review in committee of the whole.

The committee recommends further that in the future main estimates documents, major initiatives should be contained in each department's definitive objectives. The Standing Committee on Finance should receive, one week prior to its review, the main estimates and an analysis of the resources and time required for all major initiatives being proposed for the fiscal year under review. Thank you.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 151

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. We have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. A copy has

been circulated to you and has been translated. To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to briefly comment on the motion. I know that sometimes Ministers have been heard to quietly suggest that Members on this side create unnecessary work. This is not an example of that, I believe, because the departments have already put together their definitive objectives. These are a relatively new creature. They didn't always used to be presented with departmental estimates. But each department has put them together, and I'm sure they are put down in writing in the budget because the departments believe they can accomplish those definitive objectives and are serious enough about doing it that they're willing to have them published.

So, Mr. Chairman, I think all the motion is basically saying is since every department has put these definitive objectives down in black and white, and undoubtedly must have a strategy for carrying them out and an estimate of how much resources are required -- or they wouldn't have put them in there -- then it's certainly not a difficult task to ask that we get that strategy and the resources and the timetable presented to us along with the department's estimates.

We think that this work will have already been done. It's just a matter of having it in place so as to provide for a really thorough presentation of the budget. I just want to make those comments, Mr. Chairman. I think it's reasonable and, I think at least for departments that are well prepared, this should simply be a matter of sharing with us strategies that are already in place. Thank you.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. To the motion. Madam Cournoyea.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, on this recommendation -- and I realize it's a recommendation -- it says, "the government as a whole develop a priorized list of planned initiatives, with descriptions of the type and availability of resources required and realistic time frames required for implementation."

Mr. Chairman, we generally have an idea of what it's going to take, as long as we can be assured that the Members asking for this additional information recognize that some issues are not really always within just the planning of Cabinet. For example, on the committee on division, the resources which would be required to deal with that would be something that is developed along the way as we go. As long as there's a recognition that in areas such as this, it's difficult sometimes to know the exact resources that would be required. Just as long as that is understood. Thank you.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 152

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Nunakput. The chair recognizes Mr. Ballantyne then Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

One of the concerns the committee had as we went through each of the departments was a truly amazing number of initiatives. Most initiatives are good. Most of them have a constituency that really wants to see the initiatives accomplished. It's always difficult to choose, politically, between a lot of compelling issues.

The problem, though, as the committee sees it is that the government does not have the critical mass, it doesn't have the people power to do them all. What invariably happens in any government -- and this has been true right across the country -- if you try to do too much you do everything poorly, or you only get half of them done. So the feeling is -- especially with the new centralized structure you have now -- that there has to be a better fettering system. The Premier and the Minister of Finance have to work together with the Ministers and the other departments and decide how many of these major initiatives can the government have any chance of undertaking. The list, here, goes on for pages. It's the committee's feeling that it would be absolutely impossible. You're going to paralyse yourself as a government by trying to do too much. This, hopefully, is a way for the government to take a little bit of a vote and impose some discipline on itself as to the number of achievable priorities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 152

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. To the motion. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

General comments on Committee Report 2-12(5). No further comments. What is the wish of the committee? Does the committee wish to go to detail of the budget? Thank you. The items that we will be discussing here are located in section 02 on page 12. It's Executive offices. I understand there are several Ministers responsible for this area, so perhaps we will go to the Premier for opening remarks. Madam Premier.

Department Of Executive, Introductory Remarks

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 152

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The budget for the Department of the Executive is quite different than it was last year.

As a result of reorganization, the budget has increased from $17.8 million and 152.6 person years in 1993/94 to $57.3 million and 327.4 person years.

It includes spending plans for the Executive Offices, the Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs and the expanded Financial Management Board Secretariat.

My remarks will deal with the budget of the Executive Offices. Mr. Kakfwi and Mr. Pollard will be appearing before the committee to deal with their portions of the Executive Department budget.

The Executive Offices' portion of the budget is $10.4 million and 97.1 person years, a decrease of about $3 million and 30.5 person years.

The major reason for this:

1) The Audit Bureau has been transferred to the Financial Management Board Secretariat;

2) The Bureau of Statistics has been moved to the Department of Finance; 3) The Science Institute has moved to Education, Culture and Employment;

4) The Protocol Office is being closed, future protocol requirements will be dealt with through the utilization of existing resources in the department and the Legislative Assembly;

5) Salaries for four government liaison offices are being shared with other departments, particularly Social Services and Renewable Resources, to reflect more accurately how they are utilizing their time; and

6) The Executive Council Grants program has been replaced by a new policy in the Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs to support the provision of grants and contributions to aboriginal organizations.

While implementing these changes, the department has been able to generate further savings through internal efficiencies. Reductions in ongoing lease costs due to purchase of office equipment such as facsimiles, copiers and computers, no longer requiring rental facilities for session and program redesign have contributed to this exercise.

The presentation of the remaining functions has also changed significantly. Where there were once ten activities, there are now three. They consist of the Commissioner's office, the Ministers' offices and the Executive Council Secretariat. This involved the consolidation of many small activities, but did not involve any staff reduction at either headquarters or in the regions. It is anticipated that it will lead to better coordination within the Executive Offices' budget.

In the past years, the Department of the Executive was sub-divided too many ways and was responsible for a variety of tasks and activities tacked on over the years. To better focus attention on managing the government's agenda, setting priorities and monitoring implementation, the department has been pared down. I believe this will help over the coming months as the government will bring forward new initiatives in the areas of income reform, employment, economic and renewable resource development, deficit reduction and housing. As Members are aware, the GNWT is being driven to overhaul many programs in response to federal cutbacks and off-loading, so more time will be devoted to communicating with the public so that they understand our position and direction.

Some issues of importance that fall directly under the responsibility of the Government Leader, and which are in the budget before the committee, are Status of Women and Official Languages.

As Members are aware, the Canada/Northwest Territories cooperation agreement for French and aboriginal languages expires at the end of the fiscal year. The renewal process has begun and the GNWT has submitted a proposal to the federal government for a five year agreement which will take us up to division.

The focus of the GNWT proposal for aboriginal languages is the increasing role for communities in language matters and support to community-based initiatives. As in past years, the GNWT is seeking 100 per cent funding for the provision of French language services, as required under the Official Languages Act.

There have been concerns raised about the management of the current agreement, particularly with respect to lapsed dollars. The GNWT is addressing these concerns through many avenues, including the renewal process. We are seeking a much more flexible agreement to avoid administrative requirements which contributed to the unacceptable level of lapsed funding by several departments.

As the federal government has not responded to the GNWT proposal, the official languages budget includes only Vote 1 resources of $175,000 and 1.6 person years. Once we have received a response from Ottawa, an update will be provided to the Legislative Assembly regarding the anticipated levels of vote 4 funding.

A priority for the Official Languages Unit will be the drafting of directives to ensure that languages programs and services are available where appropriate and that resources are used effectively.

The completion of the analysis of the assessment and the evaluation will be required prior to many key directives being drafted. The information will be critical to the drafting of directives such as those related to designated offices, designated areas, interpretation services and language proficiency.

An update of the progress of the official languages directives manual will be provided before the end of this session of the Legislative Assembly and in conjunction with the government's response to the Languages Commissioner's first report.

The fiscal year 1994-95 will also see continued close cooperation between the government and women's groups. The special advisor on women in the GNWT will be working with the Status of Women Council, the Native Women's Association, Pauktuutik and the relevant departments in the areas of family law, day care, violence against women and women and health. To strengthen the link between these groups, all financial support for women's groups totalling $528,000 is now located in the special advisor's budget.

Two key priority areas which are being coordinated through the department but which do not have resources specifically tied to them will be division and departmental consolidation.

Background work on the organizational and administrative matters relating to division are being coordinated by a steering committee of deputy ministers and one internally funded staff person. No incremental resources are included in the budget as the level and type will be determined only once Caucus has decided upon how we will be approaching division issues, and how the government could be of most assistance in meeting our obligations and creating two new territories.

Mr. Chairman, once the mechanism on division has been established by the Assembly, it will be possible to sit down and coordinate a joint approach to the issues by the legislative and executive branches of government. This strategy will ensure that we, the elected representatives of the NWT public, will set the priorities for the new territories rather than have them set by people living in southern Canada.

Similarly, no incremental resources for consolidation are being asked for. Work is being done internally and by the affected departments. With regard to the Health and Social Services amalgamation, the comments of the special committee are being carefully reviewed and the government's plan for consolidation will be contained in the response to be tabled in Assembly this session.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks. Thank you.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 154

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Madam Premier. The Chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance. Mr. Zoe.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 154

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I move that you report progress.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

We have a motion to report progress on the floor. The motion is not debatable.

All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

I shall rise and report progress to the Speaker.

Committee Motion 2-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation No. 2, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Speaker

Item 20, report of committee of the whole. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Your committee has been considering Committee Report 2-12(5) and Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95, and would like to report progress with two motions being adopted. Madam Speaker, I move that the report of the committee of the whole be concurred with.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Speaker

Thank you. Your motion is in order. Seconder of the motion, the honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe. All those in favour? All those opposed? All those abstaining? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 21, third reading of bills. Item 22, orders of the day. Mr. Clerk.

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

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Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Madam Speaker, there will be a meeting of the Ordinary Members' Caucus at 10:30 am tomorrow morning. Orders of the day for Wednesday, February 16, 1994.

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Oral Questions

6. Written Questions

7. Returns to Written Questions

8. Replies to Opening Address

9. Replies to Budget Address

10. Petitions

11. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

12. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

13. Tabling of Documents

14. Notices of Motion

15. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills

16. Motions

17. First Reading of Bills

18. Second Reading of Bills

19. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and

Other Matters

- Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95

- Committee Report 2-12(5), Review of the 1994-95 Main Estimates

- Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business

- Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards an NWT Mineral Strategy

- Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning Strategy

- Tabled Document 3-12(5), Towards a Strategy to 2010: A Discussion Paper

- Tabled Document 11-12(5), First Annual Report of the Languages Commissioner of the NWT for the Year 1992-93

20. Report of Committee of the Whole

21. Third Reading of Bills

22. Orders of the Day

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

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The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until 1:30 pm, Wednesday, February 16, 1994.

---ADJOURNMENT