This is page numbers 399 - 427 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was community.

Topics

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo, Mr. Antoine, Hon. Silas Arngna'naaq, Mr. Arvaluk, Mr. Ballantyne, Mr. Dent, Mr. Gargan, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Koe, Mr. Lewis, Hon. Jeannie Marie-Jewell, Hon. Rebecca Mike, Hon. Don Morin, Mr. Ng, Mr. Ningark, Mr. Patterson, Hon. John Pollard, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Pudluk, Mr. Whitford, Mr. Zoe

---Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

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The Speaker

Good afternoon. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, the Premier will be absent from the House today and part of tomorrow to attend the aboriginal achievement awards in Toronto.

The Honourable Richard Nerysoo will be absent from the House today to attend a Council of Ministers of Education meeting and tomorrow to attend a meeting of Labour Market Ministers in Toronto.

The Honourable John Todd will be absent from the House today on personal business.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Minister's statements. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, a special ceremony will be held in Ottawa tonight to honour 12 Canadians chosen to receive a national aboriginal achievement award. Premier Cournoyea, along with five other northerners, will be receiving an award. Other northern recipients are Rosemarie Kuptana, Bill Lyall, Cindy Kenny-Gilday and Susan Aglukark.

The concept of a national aboriginal achievement award was initiated by the Canadian Native Arts Foundation last year to honour the outstanding achievements of aboriginal people. A ceremony to present the awards will be held in the National Arts Centre. I understand the event will be packaged by the CBC into a 60 minute television special to be broadcast nationally on March 3.

Madam Speaker, I'm sure Members will want to join me in congratulating the award winners.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Kivallivik, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to remind Members that a ceremony for the official unveiling of the team NWT Arctic Winter Games clothing will take place tomorrow at 12:00 noon in the lobby of the Legislative Assembly. All Members are welcome to attend and join me in showing appreciation for the fine work produced by several of our Northwest Territories clothing manufacturers.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Morin.

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Recently there was an announcement about a new communications system for schools. It said that all NWT schools would be able to use computers to send messages to each other. This announcement reminded me again of the problems of those seven communities without phone services. Schools in those communities can't use this latest technology.

When the CRTC held hearings last summer, I spoke about the great need for full telephone services in all NWT communities. Mr. Kakfwi also spoke at those hearings on behalf of people in Colville Lake.

As I reported to you by letter, the CRTC's decision in December requires NorthwesTel to file a plan for providing full services in the unserved communities. This plan is due by June 20. In January, I wrote to the president of NorthwesTel. I said that we looked forward to their renewed efforts to extend services to all communities as soon as possible. It is important for us to keep this issue in front of the public. I will continue to encourage NorthwesTel to fulfil their commitments.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Member's statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the Ordinary Members' Caucus to express concern to the government over the actions of the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Madam Speaker, last Thursday and Friday in this House we discussed the budget of Education, Culture and Employment and we were under the impression on Friday that Mr. Nerysoo would be here on Monday. As a result, we left that department in the middle of the review. Actually, we had only started general comments.

Madam Speaker, we only learned this morning that Minister Nerysoo would be away for part of this week. Now in committee of the whole we are faced with the decision as to whether to proceed with the departmental review of that budget or to stand the budget down.

Madam Speaker, our understanding is that the Council of Ministers of Education meeting and the Labour Market Ministers meeting in Toronto were not planned at the last minute. The Minister should have been aware of the fact that these meetings were on.

During the mid-term review, it was pointed out to the Minister in the ordinary Members' report card, that Members particularly felt that Mr. Nerysoo needed to make more of an effort to "treat Members with respect." Madam Speaker, leaving in the middle of the budget process without advising this House that he was about to do so or advising Members that he was going to have to be away before we started consideration of his budget, we don't think, shows respect for the Members or the process.

Madam Speaker, we are concerned that this demonstrates, once again, an example of his cavalier attitude that we commented on following the mid-term review. We would hope, Madam Speaker, that the government will, in future, make sure that Members of this House are advised when Ministers will not be present so that we can plan properly to deal with their budgets in committee of the whole without having to go through the process of standing departments down and skipping around. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. During the week of February 14-18, the Kitikmeot Inuit Association held their 1993-94 annual general meeting in Cambridge Bay. There were a total of over 40 delegates representing all hamlet councils, all hunters' and trappers' associations in Kitikmeot, the Arctic Cooperatives Limited, the Kitikmeot Regional Council, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, Inuit Tapirisat of Canada and, of course, all the executive and directors of the Kitikmeot Inuit Association.

During the annual general meeting, delegates had presentations from Metall Canada, Northern Transportation Company Ltd, community economic development organizations, Echo Bay Mines, Canadian Coastguard, NTI, KRC and the honourable Member for Natilikmiot and I, as MLAs for the region. The honourable Don Morin, Minister of Public Works and Services and the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, also answered questions for many of the delegates. On behalf of KIA, I thank him for taking up the invitation to attend the annual general meeting and dealing directly with the concerns of the delegates.

Madam Speaker, the delegates of the annual general meeting passed 12 resolutions, of which eight resolutions dealt with non-internal matters which affect the majority of residents in Kitikmeot. These resolutions included cooperative sectoral funding for community economic development organizations, a code of conduct for Kitikmeot leaders, lowering the cost of gasoline and heating oil prices in the region, NTCL employment training programs for the Kitikmeot, holding a Kitikmeot leadership conference, reaffirmation of support to establish credit unions, the improvement from DIAND of funds and program delivery levels to CEDOs through the CAEDS strategy, and restoration of federal funding for social housing.

Madam Speaker, the ever-increasing importance of the Kitikmeot Inuit Association is evident from the large turn-out of delegates attending and making presentations at the conference. Members of the KIA are to be commended for their hard work and the resulting success of their 1993-94 annual general meeting. Thank you.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. On November 3, 1993, I watched a documentary on CBC which disturbed me. The title of the documentary was A Place Called Dixie. The whole purpose of this documentary were Canadian immigration laws and the situation in Somalia. The title of the documentary refers to an apartment building. Madam Speaker, in recent years, the Dixie apartments have had an influx of Somalian refugees moving into the building. These people, due to economic conditions, crowded more than one family into an apartment.

Madam Speaker, this led to concerns on the part of the landlord and other tenants about the conditions of overcrowding in the building. The tenants say that their opposition to the Somalians in the building is built on the issue of safety, the number of people in an apartment and that rent should be charged on the basis of how many people are living in the apartments. Although the people interviewed said that their opposition was not racially motivated, Madam Speaker, I believe that their opposition was partly motivated by racial intolerance.

The major problem I had with the entire documentary was with a Somalian girl who made the following statement: "Canada is a multicultural country. Nobody owns it." This implies, Madam Speaker, that the country had no history before immigration from Europe began. This is an injustice to all aboriginal people in Canada. What must be done, Madam Speaker, is an education program for new immigrants to Canada. They must be made aware of the rich history of Canada before the Europeans. Just as they are encouraged to maintain their culture in Canada, so should they be made aware of Canada's original people. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

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Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. This weekend I had the pleasure of helping out at the third annual bachelor auction sponsored by the local office of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. The auction raised over $5,000 for program work and operational costs. A good time was had by all.

Madam Speaker, in an economic climate such as we are experiencing, it becomes much more difficult for voluntary groups and agencies to raise the necessary portion of money needed to keep programs operating and we, in Yellowknife, are fortunate to have had the generous input and support that we get.

Special thanks must go to the Explorer Hotel, Sounds Sensations and the many restaurants that contributed facilities, entertainment and door prizes for this event. But it was through the generosity of the good people at Clark Bowler who matched, dollar for dollar, some of the bids, that our objectives were reached.

CNIB regional director, Lydia Bardak, her staff and volunteers, including our own Ms. MacPherson and Ms. Harris, had to have done a wonderful job of rounding up a good slate of eligible bachelors who promised lots of fun and good times for their successful bidders. Events such as these ensure that the necessary and important work of CNIB can continue. Thank you.

---Applause

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. I rise today to inform the House of the very worthwhile conference I attended on the weekend on behalf of my colleagues on the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and Privileges.

Madam Speaker, the reinventing Parliament conference brought together Canadians from across the country to discuss alternatives for the meaningful renewal of Canada's Parliament, provincial and territorial legislatures and the electoral process.

It was sponsored by the Campbell West Foundation and hosted by the University of Lethbridge.

Madam Speaker, in recent years there have been numerous calls advocating parliamentary changes outside of the constitutional process. Clearly, Canadians remain disappointed with the way their governments work in Canada. The purpose of this conference was to bring academics, political practitioners and students together to assess the need for changing Canada's institution of government, reflect on available options and to set forth an agenda for action.

Madam Speaker, Brian Lewis, our Deputy Speaker, an alternate Member of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and Privileges, accompanied me to this conference. We both actively participated in workshop discussions and considered issues such as free votes, private Members' bills, legislative committees, the role of individual MPs and MLAs, changes to the rules governing confidence motions, direct participation by the public as an alternative to strict party discipline and the steadily increasing power of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. Madam Speaker, our northern experiences regarding consensus government was very helpful and added a unique perspective to the examination of these issues.

Madam Speaker, I will be presenting more detailed information to my colleagues on the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and Privileges in the very near future and look forward to a more in-depth discussion in that forum as we attempt to make our system of self-government more responsible and responsive to those whom we serve. Thank you.

---Applause

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Last week I had the privilege of attending several sessions of the tenth annual general assembly of Pauktuutit, the Inuit women's association, held in Iqaluit and bringing greetings from this Assembly along with my colleague, the Honourable Rebecca Mike.

As Nunatsiaq News put it so aptly in an editorial published last week, in describing this large group of leaders from Nunavut, Nunavik and Labrador, "Though most of them don't hold any formal elected political positions, it is a group of leaders who are growing in power and influence. They are leaders in the true sense of the word, community leaders, role models, family leaders, youth leaders, leaders of the people. We will be hearing the strong voices of Inuit women in Iqaluit," the editorial concluded, "We will be listening to and learning from those voices for many years to come."

Madam Speaker, I was one of a number of male political leaders who had the privilege of addressing the meeting. To me it was a mark of the coming of age of Pauktuutit that these strong political leaders, including James Eetoolook, John Amagoalik, Jack Anawak, Senator Willie Adams, among others, spoke frankly and often emotionally about the need for men to support and understand the point of view of women and children.

Madam Speaker, it was a marvellous meeting. I am pleased that it was so well covered in the media. I can do no better than again quote from Nunatsiaq News. The story in Friday's paper summed up the spirit of the meeting quite well. "Spare chairs were few, the coffee ran low and people lined the walls around the square meeting tables to watch Pauktuutit's tenth anniversary meeting, which proved to be one of the most successful Pauktuutit has ever had. Women shed tears, shared smiles and embraced during breaks, updating each other on what has happened in their communities since they last gathered a year ago. Around the table they supported each other as well during emotional speeches where men and women revealed painful life stories." As the article pointed out, it was much more than a business meeting, it was a mixture of healing, support and business. A dynamic new board of directors was elected. There was a fabulous fashion show interrupted in dramatic fashion by the NWT Power Corporation.

Madam Speaker, I would like to interrupt my concluding remarks to request unanimous consent to conclude. Thank you.

The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker and honourable Members. I was pleased that time was taken out by Pauktuutit on the instance of the Honourable Rebecca Mike and with her assistance to honour the founding president of Pauktuutit, Ms. Jeela Moss-Davis. Pauktuutit has come a long way in those ten years. The wise women of Pauktuutit are being heard. They have, in many ways, become what Pauktuutit president Martha Flaherty has described as our conscience.

I would like to thank the Inuit women's association, Pauktuutit, for honouring my constituents by choosing Iqaluit as the location for this very important assembly. I would also like to thank Mary Wilman and her very hard working, local organizing community, including corporate sponsors, for the good work they did in preparing a very warm welcome and full slate of activities for the delegates. Thank you.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Gargan on February 17, 1994 regarding family violence funding.

The federal government announced a new family initiative in February 1991. Over a four year period, a total of $22 million was available through the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and $14 million through the medical services branch of Health Canada to combat family violence.

INAC's family violence initiative focused on community-based programs and services and is managed in each region in cooperation with First Nations' representatives. The medical services branch focuses on curriculum development and training for community workers.

Through a formula driven process, the Northwest Territories' portion of the $22 million available through INAC was determined as follows: 1991-92, $25,000; 1992-93, $50,000; 1993-94, $75,000; and, 1994-95, $75,000.

This amounted to a total of $225,000 over four years.

In 1992-93, the Northwest Territories Native Women's Association and the Pauktuutit Inuit Women's Association administered these family violence funds, each receiving $25,000. In 1993-94, each received $37,500.

These fund were to be directed to community groups for public education and awareness activities.

Madam Speaker, the Government of the Northwest Territories accessed a total of over $1 million out of Health Canada's $14 million. These funds have been used to develop and deliver family violence training for shelter workers in the Northwest Territories. The Department of Social Services has been carrying out this training through contribution agreements with Health Canada. The amounts available were determined by a funding formula. The following amounts are available over the four year period: 1991-92, $176,000; 1992-93, $291,000; 1993-94, 259,800; and, 1994-95, $319,800.

The training has been delivered to shelter workers throughout the Northwest Territories by the Northwest Territories Native Women's Association, under contribution agreements with the department. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Government House Leader. We've been told before, Madam Speaker, that the Premier has decided not to choose a Deputy Premier, but to devolve authority on a case-by-case basis when she needs to be out of town. I was wondering if the Government House Leader could advise us who is filling that position today. In other words, Madam Speaker, who is in charge?

The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, Premier Cournoyea is still in charge, she is still in Canada. She is in contact with us. In the interim, if there is any signing to be done or any minor decisions to be made, meetings to be chaired, I am doing that kind of thing, Madam Speaker. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Supplementary to the same Minister. In the past, there have been some problems on occasion with ministerial signing authority. The Minister has indicated that he has now authority for the Premier if that is needed. Have the Ministers who are also out of town right now delegated signing authority for their departmental responsibilities?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, it's not normal for Ministers to delegate if they're going to be out of town for 24 or 48 hours. If it was going to be for a matter of days or weeks, then that would be different. At the present time, if there were any documents to be signed on behalf of any of the Ministers who are absent, that could be done by any one of the Ministers who are in the House at the present time. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Madam Speaker, can I seek unanimous consent to return to oral questions?

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The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to oral questions. Are there any nays? There are no nays, Mr. Zoe. Item 5, oral questions.

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you, colleagues, for returning to oral questions. Madam Speaker, in October of 1993, the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs at the time wrote in a reply to the Northwest Territories Association of Municipalities that his department was working with the office of the fire marshal to develop a fire training strategy for community fire fighters. I would like to ask the Minister, Madam Speaker, can the current Minister tell us when these negotiations will be completed?

The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Kivallivik, Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't know what stage the negotiations are at, at this point. I thank the Member for bringing that up and I will find out. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Madam Speaker, in that same letter that the Minister wrote, he also indicated that his department supported cost-effective fire fighting training in all communities. However, Madam Speaker, funding for fire fighting training is generally lumped in with unconditional funding provided to communities, and it is not identified separately as requested by the resolution passed at the NWTAM. Can the Minister explain why specific funding for fire fighting training is not identified separately?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The way I understand the transfers that are made to communities is through a funding formula, which are transferred to communities on an unconditional basis. The only conditions there are, are under water and sewage. It is up to the municipality or the community to decide how the funding will be dispersed in their particular community. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Madam Speaker, supplementary. Given that the funding for fire fighting training is not identified separately, can the Minister explain what measures are in place to require communities to develop an adequately trained fire fighting force?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Madam Speaker, I'm not certain how it is decided that funds should be distributed because it is a government to government relationship. We are not in a position to say that this is how your money should be spent, because they are a government and the governments

decide for themselves how their funding is to be spent. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Supplementary, Madam Speaker. I think the Minister is getting confused. I'm primarily concentrating on the fire fighters at the community level, Madam Speaker, with particular regard to the training component. Can the Minister assure this House that he and his department will develop measures as soon as possible to ensure that every community has an adequately trained fire fighting force? As I understand, from the comments that I am receiving from the Minister, there are no measures in place. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't know how successful we will be in acquiring additional funds. Due to the restraint, we have had difficulty in trying to acquire funds, but we will certainly take a good look at it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe.

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services. During my travels across the north, one of the many concerns raised by people in the communities dealt with the lack of proper treatment facilities for young people. Currently, young people, when they need to be assessed, have to be sent south for the assessment and treatment, and this is especially the case for youths who are addicted to alcohol or drugs. My question to the Minister is, what initiatives is the department taking in reviewing and working toward developing proper assessment and treatment facilities in the Northwest Territories for youths?

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. This issue has been raised several times by the Members of this Legislative Assembly. As a result, a working group formed in 1990 reviewed legislative options and concluded that legislation in absence of treatment programs would be ineffective. The group recommended pilot programs in several communities if funding could be identified. Northern Addiction Services has a pilot project, along with the government of Canada, on solvent abuse as a result of those concerns that have been raised here in this House, as well as in other communities across the north. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. It is nice to know that there is at least one pilot project in the north, but there are many communities, and not all are centred around Yellowknife. My question is, will the department also be looking at using some of the developed bush camps for assisting in treatment of youths and families?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. It will all depend on what assessments have been made on youths, to what extent their addictions vary. Certainly, the department will look at these camps for youths who have fewer problems with solvent abuse or alcohol and drugs. Thank you.

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The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi. I guess that is the root of the problem, the inability of assessing the youths in the north, because, for each one, we have to send them to a facility in the south to do a proper assessment and that costs a lot of money. So, I am very concerned that we have assessment facilities or the the ability to do assessments in the north. To do assessments, you also need, at the grass-roots, community level, people who are able to identify some of the problems. What is the department doing in terms of training or providing training for the development of counsellors in the communities?

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Further Return To Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The department, in trying to address a number of problems that have existed over the years, by decentralizing its clinical team to regional centres so that they can be made available to the frontline workers in the communities and also involve and identify training needs at the local level. Once that is complete, I hope that we will have more trained workers looking after problems that arise at the community level.

Further Return To Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
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The Speaker

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Koe.

Supplementary To Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
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Fred Koe Inuvik

It is nice to hear that we are finally going to provide some of the expertise to the regional centres. My final supplementary is, in terms of some of the bush camps that are in existence and being worked on and developed, how is the department going to provide assistance or how do these camps, the operators of these camps, come to the department in terms of putting a program forward? Do they write a submission, or is the department assessing these camps, or what process is being used to be able to utilize the camps that are out there?

Supplementary To Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Further Return To Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think, due to the restraint measures that we have been going through over the past few years, we could assist in terms of other programs that are made available from the federal government targeted for youth. As well as the Brighter Futures, there are a number of funds that are available but not available within our department or our government. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
Question 222-12(5): Development Of Treatment Facilities For Youth
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The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Aivilik, Mr. Arvaluk.

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Madam Speaker, this question is directed to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs in his capacity as Minister responsible for sports and recreation. On February 22, 1994, I informed the Minister in this House that not one player from the Coral Harbour senior men's hockey team would be part of the Arctic Winter Games NWT men's hockey team, even though they came in second in the territorial trials. The Minister's response to the question I asked promised to look into the matter and ensure that fairness and equality is practised in the selection process to avoid discrimination against smaller communities. My question is, has the Minister found out why there were no players from the Coral Harbour senior men's hockey team that came in second place chosen to represent the Northwest Territories at the Arctic Winter Games in Slave Lake, Alberta, this March?

The Speaker

Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will take the question as notice.

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 405

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I would like to follow up on a question I asked the Minister of Health on Friday regarding the agreement or proposed agreement with Alberta to use the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton. As I mentioned then, I have had questions posed to me by constituents and I would like to gain a better understanding of how this agreement might work. Madam Speaker, presently, people are free to choose the doctor they see so that, if someone from the western Arctic is referred to a specialist, they could, for instance, choose to see a specialist in Ontario. The Department of Health would pay for the cost of transportation to Edmonton. The patient would then be responsible for picking up the cost of transportation from Edmonton to a doctor in Ontario and return to Edmonton, but through reciprocal billings, the Department of Health would pay for the consultation with the specialist. Given this new agreement that is being proposed, if the same speciality is offered at the Royal Alexandra, will people still be able to choose to see the doctor of their choice?

Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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Page 405

John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I thought about this question on the weekend and I think the answer is, if there are specialists who are treating people in the Northwest Territories and they're treating them at hospitals other than the Royal Alexandra, at the present time, then we should encourage those specialists to seek privileges at the Royal Alexandra and then they can treat their patients in a facility that we intend to do most of our business with. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. That response would tend to indicate, though, a lessening of choice. So, just for clarification, is the department now saying that the people of the Northwest Territories, and the western Arctic in particular, do not have a choice about the doctors they see?

Supplementary To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

Further Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, normally if you go to your nurse, they will refer you to a physician. A physician will refer you to a specialist to have a particular procedure done. If you've had a bad fracture, they would refer you to an orthopaedic surgeon in Edmonton and the operation would be done down there if Stanton could not handle that particular situation. That happens occasionally. If this badly fractured limb could not be treated at Stanton, they would be referred to the Royal Alexandra hospital and the treatment would be done there. The specialist would be the person who is working out of that particular hospital.

I think what Mr. Dent is getting at is there are people who, for many years, have seen the same specialists in Edmonton over and over again. I believe some of them see them a few times a year. If it doesn't involve hospitalization then I think they could probably still see those people. We figure 85 per cent of our patients from the territories can be hospitalized at the Royal Alexandra. For those people who are going down for consultation every three months or so, I don't see a reason why they would have to change their specialist if it doesn't involve hospitalization. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Further Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

I thank the Minister for that response. In fact, it clears up what I was looking for on Friday. My question today has more to do with freedom of choice. At the present time, Canadians are allowed to choose a second opinion, if they wish, from a doctor. So if you're referred to a specialist, you may get the opinion of that specialist, but you may also choose to go see another specialist of your choosing. You can be referred to that person by the doctor so that you can get a second opinion.

My question today has to do with whether that choice will still be there. Right now, if I'm referred to a specialist in Edmonton, I may choose to go past Edmonton and get an opinion from a specialist in the same field somewhere else. Now, at the present time, I'm required to pay the extra travel costs from Edmonton to wherever that specialist may be. My question is, will that still be the same situation? Will the Department of Health pay for the services of that specialist if that specialist is somewhere other than Edmonton?

Supplementary To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 406

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

Further Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

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John Pollard Hay River

Madam Speaker, I think there's a little bit of confusion. What we're trying to deal with is the hospital we send people to from the western Arctic and the Kitikmeot. That used to be, for the most part, the Charles Camsell Hospital. That hospital, I understand, will be no longer, so we are making a new arrangement. Any of those other services and the choices of people will still be there. But, when it comes to hospitalization, we are trying to get people from the western Arctic and from the Kitikmeot to be patients in the Royal Alexandra Hospital where they offer the service. If they don't offer the service, then they will refer those cases to the University Hospital or the Cross Cancer Institute.

I think we're dealing with a facility and I think Mr. Dent is talking about a patient's choice of physician. I don't intend to get involved in the patient's choice of physician, although I am trying to encourage people from the western Arctic and from the Kitikmeot to use the Royal Alexandra hospital. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Further Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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The Speaker

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for that response. I was wondering if the Minister could advise the House, during the course of these negotiations, was the NWT Medical Association consulted? Were they asked to provide advice as to whether or not the Royal Alexandra would be the best choice in Edmonton or if another hospital might be?

Supplementary To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Health, Mr. Pollard.

Further Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had the department check with all the medical associations in the Northwest Territories including the nurses, the Public Health Association and I consulted personally with the board. I believe that the last piece of information we're waiting for is a letter from the boards advising about their visit to the facility which happened about ten days ago. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Further Return To Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
Question 224-12(5): Agreement With Royal Alexandra Hospital
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The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Social Services and it is with regard to the food allowances for clients on social assistance. A year after this government took office, in October 1992, there was a five per cent increase in social assistance payments. In October 1993, there was another average of a five per cent increase in social assistance rates. The monthly food allowance rates are still below the monthly nutritious food basket costs as published by the NWT bureau of statistics. I would like to ask the Minister, is an ongoing evaluation and adjustment of food allowance rates for social assistant clients still a priority of her department? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Return To Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Among many priorities, yes, it is.

Return To Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
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The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ng.

Supplementary To Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister, then what plans are in place to review these food scale increases for the upcoming year? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 407

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Supplementary To Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
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Page 407

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't have the information at the tip of my tongue, so I'll take the question as notice. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Question 225-12(5): Evaluation Of Food Allowances For Social Assistance Clients
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 407

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Question 226-12(5): Legislative Changes Re Family Law Review
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 407

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Social Services. Madam Speaker, in response to an oral question earlier this session, the Minister noted that she realized the need for a timely response to the family law review and the need for an early start on the legislative changes which would be required. I was very glad to hear the Minister recognize the need to move quickly. I was wondering if she could advise the House when we might expect to see these proposed legislative changes coming forward?

Question 226-12(5): Legislative Changes Re Family Law Review
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 407

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Social Services, Ms. Mike.

Question 226-12(5): Legislative Changes Re Family Law Review
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 407

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will take the question as notice.

Question 226-12(5): Legislative Changes Re Family Law Review
Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 407

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a written question for the Minister of Health.

Would the Minister responsible for the Department of Health please provide the following information:

1. What is the current rate the Department of Health will pay for hospitalization outside of Canada?

2. When was this rate last changed?

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 6, written questions. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a written question for the Minister of Safety and Public Services.

On September 29, 1993, the Minister of Safety and Public Services responded to the NWTAM, stating that negotiations were under way between the office of the fire marshal and MACA to formalize and standardize the delivery of NWT fire training programs.

Would the Minister advise this House when he expects those negotiations to be completed and when can municipalities expect new standards in delivery of fire training programs? Thank you.

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Item 9: Petitions
Item 9: Petitions

Page 407

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I have Petition No. 5-12(5), which was drawn up by Bertha Allen, the president of the Native Women's Association. This petition was considered along with the final report of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services at a women's workshop in Inuvik. All of the women at the workshop signed the petition which calls on the Members of this Legislative Assembly to act on the recommendations of the final report of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Item 9: Petitions
Item 9: Petitions

Page 407

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Item 9: Petitions
Item 9: Petitions

Page 407

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I wish to report to the Assembly that the Standing Committee on Legislation has reviewed bills 2, 5, 6 and 7 and wishes to report that...

Item 9: Petitions
Item 9: Petitions

Page 407

The Speaker

Mr. Gargan, you are under item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. We are now on item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

---Applause

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 407

The Speaker

Report On Bills 2, 5, 6, 7 And Bills 3 And 4 As Amended

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 407

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I wish to report to the Assembly that the Standing Committee on Legislation has reviewed bills 2, 5, 6 and 7 and wishes to report that bills 2, 5, 6 and 7 are ready for committee of the whole. Also, Madam Speaker, I wish to report to the Assembly that the Standing Committee on Legislation has reviewed bills 3 and 4 and wishes to report that bills 3 and 4 are now ready for committee of the whole as amended. Thank you.

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 407

The Speaker

Thank you. Pursuant to rule 75, bills 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are ordered into committee of the whole.

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 407

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 408

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table Tabled Document 32-12(5), the passed resolutions of the Kitikmeot Inuit Association's annual general assembly which deal with non-internal matters. Thank you.

---Applause

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 408

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Lewis.

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I give notice that on Wednesday, March 2, I will move the following motion. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for High Arctic, that Mr. Fred Koe, the honourable Member for Inuvik, be appointed as a Member of the Advisory Committee on Social Housing and, Madam Speaker, at the appropriate time, I will be seeking unanimous consent to deal with my motion today.

---Applause

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, first reading of bills. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94 be read for the first time. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Speaker

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion.

An Hon. Member

Question.

The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94, be read for the second time. Madam Speaker, this bill makes supplementary appropriations for the Government of the Northwest Territories for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1994. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Lewis.

Point Of Order

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Point of order, Madam Speaker. I don't believe item 15, motions, was called.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

I believe you might be right.

---Laughter

Currently, I have a motion on the floor under item 17, second reading of bills. Therefore, I would ask Mr. Pollard to withdraw your motion and then I will go back to item 15.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

I also need consent of your seconder, Mr. Pollard. Thank you.

---Withdrawn

Item 15, motions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Lewis.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Madam Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to deal with my motion, the appointment of a Member to the Advisory Committee on Social Housing.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to address his motion. Are there any nays?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

An Hon. Member

Nay.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

I hear a nay. I am sorry, unanimous consent is denied. Item 17, second reading of bills. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe that Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94, be read for the second time. Madam Speaker, this bill makes supplementary appropriations for the Government of the Northwest Territories for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1994. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 408

The Speaker

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 13, has had second reading and accordingly stands referred to committee of the whole. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95; Committee Report 2-12(5), Review of the 1994-95 Main Estimates; Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business; Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards an NWT Mineral Strategy; Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning Strategy; Tabled Document 11-12(5), First Annual Report of the Languages Commissioner of the NWT for the Year 1992-93; and, Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94, with Mr. Lewis in the chair.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

The Chair Brian Lewis

I will call the committee to order. On Friday, the committee was about to deal with the estimates of the Department of Education. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I recommend that the committee continue with consideration of Bill 1 and Committee Report 2-12(5). If the committee agrees, then I would propose to make a motion regarding what we do specifically with those two documents.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

The Chair Brian Lewis

Is it the wish of Members to continue with Bill 1 and Committee Report 2-12(5)?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Some Hon. Members

Motion To Defer Department Of Education, Culture And Employment, Carried

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I move that we defer further consideration of the budget of Education, Culture and Employment, and move on to the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

The Chair Brian Lewis

Your motion is in order, Mr. Dent. To the motion.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

The Chair Brian Lewis

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Department Of Municipal And Community Affairs

Introductory Remarks

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department continues to deliver on its long standing mandate to fund or directly provide operating assistance programs to municipal governments and communities for municipal programs and services. Although the limited fiscal resources available to our government continue to pose a major challenge, we believe that the present level of O and M support to municipal governments and communities is enabling them to meet the needs of their community residents for good, basic and diverse municipal services.

For the 1994-95 fiscal year, O and M estimates of $64.553 million are proposed. This is a modest increase of 3.3 per cent over the 1993-94 main estimates. There are no person year increases proposed for the department for 1994-95. The 1993-94 levels of 147.8 permanent and 6.6 casual person years are to be maintained. The department is continuing to carefully examine ways of better utilizing its human and financial resources to safeguard, as much as possible, for community-oriented programs rather than on overhead costs.

For this year, the department's budgetary increases are proposed for the following major areas: hamlet transfer payments which constitute a major component of the department's O and M funding. This funding is provided directly through contribution to hamlets and charter communities, and accounts for about 49 per cent of all departmental O and M grants and contributions and about 38 per cent of the department's entire O and M estimates.

Support from this government to these non-tax-based municipalities remains crucial. Additional funding of $684,000 is proposed to meet increased O and M costs of new municipal infrastructure and for inflationary cost increases.

Our government continues to emphasize the vital role of good community recreation programs in strengthening community well-being and offering positive focuses for the youth of the north. Additional funding of $400,000 is proposed to provide communities with base funding support under the recreation leadership salary subsidy program, which enables community government to hire qualified recreation leaders and recreation facility maintainers. These key community personnel are catalysts for strong, well-planned and efficient community recreation programs. The program also provides nearly 90 person years of employment in the Northwest Territories.

An additional $142,000 is proposed in order to meet forced growth requirements for maintenance of community recreational facilities, under the recreational facilities operating subsidy and the municipal operating assistance policy.

Under the grants in lieu of property taxes policy, the Government of the Northwest Territories pays grants in lieu to the city of Yellowknife, and to towns and villages for GNWT-owned properties eligible under this policy.

An additional $152,000 in forced growth is requested for municipal equalization transfer payments to tax-based municipalities. Additional funding of $112,000 is being proposed due to an increase in the number of dwelling units against which the municipal equalization formula is calculated, as well as an inflationary increase.

I wish to point out that municipal O and M funding for the city of Yellowknife is provided under the GNWT city block funding agreement, which commences its second year on April 1, 1994. Under this three year agreement, the level of GNWT funding for the city's municipal capital and O and M programs is set at $4.100 million annually. For support to settlements, additional funding of $253,000 is requested to meet operating costs for new infrastructure in smaller communities.

Your committee has previously expressed concerns about the level of funding support for settlements or other small communities with developing forms of local government. I want to assure this committee that the department is making progress in developing settlement capital and operating assistance policies, and I expect to submit them to Cabinet for consideration this winter. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the proposed O and M estimates for Municipal and Community Affairs provide a budget with broad scope to address the basic needs of municipal governments and community governments on a comprehensive and equitable basis. I now look forward to answering the committee's questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks very much, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Before we go to questions and dealing with the report of the Standing Committee on Finance, I request to take a short break. The meeting is recessed.

---SHORT BREAK

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The Chair Brian Lewis

I would like to call the committee back to order. Before the recess we had received some opening comments from the Minister. Does the Standing Committee on Finance have a report to make. Mr. Zoe.

Standing Committee on Finance Comments

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Finance, with regard to the Municipal and Community Affairs, is generally impressed with the progress of the department. The overall impression is one of competence and ability, and we look forward to seeing the department continue to meet the needs of the Northwest Territories' municipalities as well as it has.

While we recognize that the Minister of this department is new to Cabinet, we encourage him to manage proactively and to take a lead role in guiding the department's actions.

Property Taxation

Mr. Chairman, there are number of issues related to property taxation that the department should consider. These issues -- payment of property taxes by status native people, low taxation rates in the general taxation area and incentives to home ownership -- are addressed in recommendation 18 which is recorded under the Department of Finance. The committee recommends that this department work with the departments of Education and Finance in developing a plan to resolve outstanding issues in this area.

The Iqaluit Situation

Mr. Chairman, the committee is concerned about the events leading up to the dissolution of the Iqaluit municipal council. That dissolution, and the appointment of an outside administrator, took Members by surprise. While we appreciate the Cabinet felt it had valid reasons for taking the action it did, we believe that such surprises are to be avoided. There should be clear policies and processes in place that would allow municipalities and other concerned parties to know what to expect.

Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the committee made the following recommendation.

Recommendation 26

The committee recommends that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs review its policies, processes and legislation regarding dissolution of municipal councils and amend them as necessary to establish a clear and understandable process. Further, that the department respond to the committee with the amendments by August 1, 1994.

Community Development

Mr. Chairman, the committee noted that department has, over the last few years, been allocating capital resources to communities that were in need of basic municipal infrastructure. While these efforts are commendable, they do not fully address the overall needs of these small developing communities. These communities need support to strengthen themselves. They require assistance in the administration of the municipality and the infrastructure which is being developed.

Therefore, the standing committee made the following recommendation.

Recommendation 27

The committee recommends that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs identify community development in smaller communities as a priority and develop a plan which spells out how the department will address this priority. This plan should be available to the committee prior to its review of the 1995-96 capital estimates.

Training

Mr. Chairman, in last year's Standing Committee on Finance report, the committee recommended that the department "improve its community development activities, (and) develop a more relevant management training program for municipal councils and staff". The department has responded with descriptions of the programs they are developing. However, Mr. Chairman, the committee would like to see more details about the training programs. Committee Members also suggest that the department seriously consider ensuring that the resources available through Arctic College are being used appropriately, rather than relying too much on southern institutions.

Sport And Recreation

The members of the committee expressed support and appreciation for the efforts the department makes in organizing athletes for the biennial Arctic Winter Games. Athletic competition is an important way for the youth of the north to strengthen themselves and learn about others, and the games and other competitions should continue to be encouraged and supported.

During the committee's review, Mr. Chairman, it was noted that some small communities anticipated having difficulty hosting regional trials, territorial trials, aboriginal games or the Arctic Winter Games themselves. We suggest that the department encourage smaller communities to group together and bid for aboriginal games and Arctic Winter Games, where feasible, and that the department also encourage smaller communities to bid for regional and territorial trials. As well, committee Members urge the department to consider providing more substantial financial support for host communities when the games are held in the Northwest Territories.

The committee is aware that the department has supported participation in the indigenous games on a case-by-case basis. Members would like to see a process developed, similar to that used for the Arctic Winter Games, to ensure equal opportunities are available for participation in the indigenous games.

Fire Prevention And Education

Mr. Chairman, committee Members identified fire prevention and education as an area in which this department could cooperate with the office of the fire marshal in the Department of Safety and Public Services. The committee will recommend that this department assist Safety and Public Services in examining the feasibility of creating positions for community fire chiefs to lead communities in this important area.

Mr. Chairman, that basically concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Finance pertaining to Municipal and Community Affairs. Before we do that, I would like to move a couple of motions, particularly, motion 26 and 27.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs review its policies, processes and legislation regarding dissolution of municipal councils and amend them as necessary to establish a clear and understandable process. Further, that the department respond to the Standing Committee on Finance with the amendments by August 1, 1994.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Everybody has a copy of this motion. The motion is in order. To the motion.

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An Hon. Member

Question.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make one brief comment. I think that it should be understood and, perhaps, stated here that this motion should also require policies, processes and legislation regarding not just the dissolution but also the re-establishment or reinstatement of municipal councils. I think that is inherent in the motion, Mr. Chairman. But, it has come to my attention, for example, in Iqaluit, that now that the dust has settled on the dissolution, members of the current municipal advisory committee and also constituents are saying, how do we get reinstated? How do we get a council reinstated? So, I think the point I wish to make is that the procedures that should be reviewed should also provide a clear and understandable process for when a council can be reinstated as well as dissolved. So, I think it is a good motion, and I just wanted to make that point of clarification before we put it to the question.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. An amendment wouldn't be necessary, then, with that clarification, so we all know what we are voting on. The motion is in order. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move the following recommendation of the Standing Committee on Finance: I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs identify community development in smaller communities as a priority and develop a plan which spells out how the department will address this priority. Further, that this plan should be made available to the Standing Committee on Finance prior to its review of the 1995-96 capital estimates. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

The motion is in order. Does everybody have a copy of the motion? Mr. Arvaluk.

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am in support of this motion, although not so much in the small communities at this time. There are very poorly coordinated efforts between different departments of what the capital needs are, especially in small communities. For example, in Repulse Bay, we have crushed rock used for municipal roads and development sites. Because it is in a small community, that community is issued a regular dump truck that is designed for sand hauling, not rocks and boulders the size of Madam Speaker's table. They are dumped in the dump truck from the payloader right into the box of the truck. Of course, the truck box is only a quarter of an inch thick and it becomes bent completely out of shape. After a while, the rocks start going through the box completely.

Within one summer and a half, the truck was absolutely useless because it not only works overtime, it was also allowed to take on the work that is beyond its capability. Yet, in the capital plans, there is no immediate plan to replace it. I am very, very hopeful that this motion, recommendation 27, will be reviewed very carefully and abided by the government so that these sorts of scenarios in small communities will no longer continue. Qujannamiik.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, very much, Mr. Arvaluk. To the motion.

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An Hon. Member

Question.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

You've offered, Mr. Minister, to answer some questions. Mr. Zoe, sorry.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Finance pertaining to Municipal and Community Affairs. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

The report was concluded before we went to the motion, Mr. Zoe.

---Laughter

Thanks, Mr. Zoe. You offered to answer some questions for the committee, Mr. Arngna'naaq, so would you like to take the witness table and get some help? Sergeant-at-Arms, conduct the witnesses to the table, please. Oh, but I don't have the authority to do that. Are Members happy with that proposal?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. Mr. Arngna'naaq, would you like to identify your witnesses for the record, please?

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my right is Mr. Al Menard, the deputy minister of the department and to my left is Jim France, director of finance and administration.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, very much, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Do Members have either comments or questions that they would like to pose for the Minister? Mr. Arvaluk.

General Comments

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a general comment first and I probably will have more specific questions after. I received a copy of a letter that was addressed to the honourable Minister responsible for MACA regarding formula funding for hamlets. I will just elaborate a little bit because I have elaborated on it for the Minister of Finance already. Last week, I said I would be presenting this case to the Minister when he comes before this committee to deal with MACA's O and M. The hamlet councils and I are concerned that the formula funding currently being provided to the hamlets is insufficient to meet the increasing demands being put on municipal governments in the NWT, particularly the small communities within Nunavut that I mentioned before. Since the development of the prime buy concept, hamlet councils have been assuming greater responsibility for evaluating and deciding upon critical local development issues. As the formation of Nunavut approaches, the volume of activity for hamlets within Nunavut is increasing even more than before.

Currently, hamlets feel they have insufficient funding for basic administrative support to deal with the routine business of running a municipal corporation. The administrative support is insufficient to devote the time needed for policy and program development in support of the council. Mr. Chairman, what I'm trying to say here is, hamlets do not only have to deal with MACA in the day to day running of the community. Other departments, agencies and organizations do not fund municipalities to deal with program and policy development. For example, the Nunasi Corporation, the NTI, DPW and Education all come to the hamlet for support that takes quite a bit of hamlets' time. Both in terms of the council's time and the administration time. There are not sufficient funds to allow other activities to take place in the area of policy and program development.

What we have been seeing is that there are too many people involved in separate programs at the territorial government level. That also creates much of the problem. One small example of this is that last year, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment advised us that funding for an apprentice that we had on staff in the hamlet was being eliminated. Since we could no longer afford to keep that person without funding assistance, we issued the person a lay- off notice. Within a couple of days of issuing the lay-off notice, another person from within the same office of the government advised us that they did have another program through which the person could be funded. This is but one small example of how it is confusing if you are a hamlet dealing with all kinds of departments. It becomes very frustrating. If there was one department dealing and coordinating with hamlets and between the departments the hamlet is dealing with, this would make it a lot easier.

Another issue of concern is the employees of the hamlets have requested that they be given equal treatment with the GNWT employees, with respect to vacation travel assistance. I talked about this with the Minister of Finance when he was at the witness table. Currently, the hamlet of Coral Harbour, for example, follows the old system whereby those going out on the land don't get nearly as much as those who take a flight somewhere like Winnipeg. As the majority of our hamlet employees either take on the land assistance or fly to destinations much closer to Coral Harbour than Winnipeg, the hamlet could not afford the additional funds required to move to the new government system without significant increases in the amount of formula funding that currently exists.

What the hamlet is requesting is that our formula funding be increased so that we can provide the same level of benefits to hamlet employees as government employees currently enjoy. The concern, Mr. Chairman, is that there is pressure, fairly attractive pressure, to have the hamlet be more involved under the transfer initiative program. Some of these initiatives will affect present government employees. For example, if the hamlet wants to take over the Department of Public Works, the maintenance person from Public Works will probably be transferred to the hamlet but that person will want to continue to enjoy his present benefits. Because such a move will probably be blended into the formula funding, rather than a separate agreement, that person will be denied what he used to enjoy when he was a government employee.

These are the kinds of concerns, Mr. Chairman, that the hamlet and I look forward to getting a favourable response on. I totally support the hamlet's request that there is an overview, at least a review of the present formula financing in light of the initiatives that will be taking place under the Honourable Minister Kakfwi.

Another concern I have in my general comments, Mr. Chairman, is that I asked a question of the Minister of MACA early this afternoon that required just a yes or no answer. On February 22, the Minister could not reply to my question regarding hockey players -- who happened to come from a small community, that being Coral Harbour -- who came in second and not one of them was selected for the Arctic Winter Games team. When the Minister did not know what the selection process was, I asked him to look into it and he promised to look into the matter to ensure that fairness and equality was practised in the selection process to avoid discrimination against small communities. My simple question this morning was, had the Minister found out why no players from the senior men's hockey team that came in second place were chosen to represent the Northwest Territories in the Arctic Winter Games in Slave Lake, Alberta this month.

My simple question, Mr. Chairman, was had the Minister found out. The answer should have been yes or no, either he found out or didn't find out. He took the question as notice. I really wonder why the question was taken as notice when the answer would have been yes or no. If he hadn't found out, fine. If he had, I would have wanted to find out what the selection process is that was used. I was a little bit disappointed. We have only four days left before Arctic Winter Games starts. I believe they start on Saturday and it would be very nice to be able to report back to Coral Harbour to say what I found out. To say either, we're sorry, we're still very proud of you but this is what the Minister said. Yet, to date, I have not received a response. These are my general comments, Mr. Chairman. If we are going through the estimates line by line, I will probably have more. Qujannamiik.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Those were general comments. There were no questions in there. There were references to questions that were already answered in the formal session. But, if the Minister wants to respond to the comments, he may.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There were a number of different items in the comments made by the Member. I think if he were to ask specific questions, I would be able to respond. As far as the particular question that the Member asked earlier this afternoon, I didn't realize the Member was asking for a yes or no answer and I apologize for that. I would like to indicate that I have not come to a complete answer to that particular question which is why I took the question as notice.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Are there any other Members? Mr. Arvaluk, I had thought you had finished your general comments? Yes. Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, as a general comment, the Standing Committee on Finance is generally satisfied with the work of this department. We do have one question. There were, I think, 27 definitive objectives put forth by the department in the main estimates book. It was the observation of the standing committee that most departments seem to have quite a large number of objectives for the year. A definitive objective is supposed to be an objective that can be realized reasonably within the course of a year. We asked for some detail from each department as to how they were actually going to complete their objectives, when they took specific time frames, et cetera.

I observe that we have received a page of 1994-95 initiatives back from the department. It just has two objectives on the page. Perhaps the Minister could explain to me how this all works. Are these two the two they expect to get done and they don't expect to get the rest done? Or, are these the two most important ones? Or, do we only have a partial list and the rest of the information is forthcoming?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The page the Member has just mentioned indicates new initiatives the department is working on for the upcoming year. There are some pages on the objectives of the department for the coming year as well. But these two are the only initiatives the department plans to undertake for this fiscal year.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

There seems to be a number of other definitive objectives which are also supposed to take place during the course of the year. Some of them will take a bit of work in order to carry them out. For example, you are going to implement a management strategy for the Ingraham Trail. We wanted an idea of how you intended to complete these. All of these definitive objectives, theoretically, should be realizable during the year. What was the process that made you choose just these two and what does that mean? These two are going to be done by March 1995, but what happens to the rest of them on your list?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't get the full gist of the question. The objectives listed in the main estimates are what the department feels they are able to undertake for the year, or at least start. The only page the Member has in front of him are the two new initiatives the department plans to undertake. Maybe I could get a clarification on his question.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Please clarify your question.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Then I will get a clarification of the answer. The question I thought was quite clear. The department has put forward 27 definitive objectives for the year. The Standing Committee on Finance thought that this department, along with all of the other departments, are putting forward a number of areas they wanted major work done on during the year and we wanted to get an idea on how they intended to do that. The reason we had asked for something more detailed was to go through your major objectives with resources that will be necessary to complete them, the time frames and some basic ideas of how you intend to complete

them. Under municipal operations and assessment it says, "To develop incentives that will support municipal governments' efforts to hire staff with appropriate qualifications." I have no idea what that means. We had hoped that we would get more detailed clarification of each one of these objectives. Even in the two we have, there isn't much detail. So we are not further ahead in getting a better idea of what you want to achieve.

There are two ways to do it. We could go through each one in detail and have you respond. But we thought it would save us all time and effort just to have it written down so we could ask questions about the ones that weren't clear. That was what I was asking. Your answer confuses me a bit more. Are these two initiatives new since you were before the Standing Committee on Finance? Have you added two new initiatives to this list?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Okay. I misunderstood the question. I think for a detailed response to the question on definitive objectives, I will ask the deputy minister to answer.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Menard, please tell us a bit more about what is not on the paper.

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Menard

Mr. Chairman, I think we were advised by the Minister of Finance to prepare a list of what some of the major objectives were in our department and respond to those. On the list for our department, we noticed there was only two and those are the two that are in front of the Member now. They were considered new objectives, I guess. All of the rest of the objectives we have undertaken according to our normal work plans during the year and wherever they are found is where we get the money to do it. It is a normal function of the department to do those types of things and we assign the work by priority. It is nothing new.

The two that were identified as new ones, which they aren't, are still done under our work plan. That was to implement and evaluate the first year delivery of programs under the municipal capital assistance policy. We do that anyway because we review it every year. We have new policies in place and we will review that with our existing staff in community works and capital planning.

The development of a financial assistance policy of hamlet and charter communities taxation authority we are doing as well through our normal work plan through municipal operations and assessment. So we weren't aware that we had to explain each departmental objective in this exercise.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

I would like to remind witnesses and Members to talk at a speed our interpreters can handle. Mr. Patterson.

Point Of Order

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Is it not customary to have the Minister's opening remarks circulated to the committee? If so, could I ask the chair's encouragement of that practice with this Minister? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

I don't believe it is automatic, but by request I think Ministers have always made them available. Mr. Arngna'naaq, do you have copies of your opening remarks available so Members could have it?

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

I don't know where there are copies, if there are any, but certainly the comments are available for Members.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

So we can make arrangements to have copies available for Members?

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Pollard.

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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the Standing Committee on Finance document, page 22 through 29, there were departments inside the department titles that were new initiatives and initiatives currently under way. Departments priorized the new initiatives and were asked to respond on whether they were included in their present targets they were asking for or if they would be required to ask for additional funds to complete the initiative. That is the document Members will receive tomorrow morning, compiling all departments, and will contain that information. If you go back to recommendation 2, it talks about a priorized list of planned initiatives. So we were working on the new initiatives for each department for this fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. That is useful. We are still on general comments. Do you want to carry on, Mr. Ballantyne?

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The explanation given by the Minister of Finance becomes one of a certain amount of subjectivity. Some of these objectives I thought were somewhat complex and may cause some difficulty for the department. If what the Minister of Finance and MACA are saying is that none of these objectives should cause you any problems, then I will be satisfied with that. I will expect to see a successful resolution of all of these issues by the end of the year.

But, one that I will ask, if I could, Mr. Chairman, specifically, one that is -- as the deputy minister knows and as the Minister is probably becoming aware -- quite complex, is the management strategy for the Ingraham Trail area. There are a lot of conflicting uses on the Ingraham Trail. There is mining. There are the objectives of the Yellowknife Dene Band. They are talking about increasing the size of their area and they will be involved in treaty discussions and negotiations over the next few years. There is the desire of many of the cottage owners to own their own cottages. There has been a long-standing objective of the department to come up with some kind of a management plan of the area, because, from time to time, as the deputy minister remembers, these conflicting uses give us a lot of problems. So, this is quite definitive here as your objective is to implement the management strategy. I would be very supportive of you doing that, but I just wonder, though, how the Minister intends to proceed, then, in implementing this management strategy for the Ingraham Trail area.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Menard to respond to that.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Menard.

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Menard

Through the process of developing this plan, which was very difficult as all the client groups were included in developing the plan, we ran into some difficulties somewhere along the line. Because it is not all Commissioner's land and there is a lot of federal land, we lost support for completing the plan. So, since the book has been printed, the plan has since been put on hold. We are going to use the information we have as a guideline in the interim until after land selection. We were requested by the federal government to stop the plan in order to support the land selection process and to put things on hold, which will probably resume once land selection has been finalized. In the meantime, we will be using the plan as a guideline and we think we can fulfil our commitments that were made to some of the people on the Ingraham Trail, especially in the area where there is Commissioner's land. So that is what we are doing with it.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Does that answer your question, Mr. Ballantyne? Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Yes, that answers part of the question, and I am aware of the difficulty. I just have a comment that on the Ingraham Trail, even though there are a lot of different users and there is a lot of different potential for that land, I think there is some possibility right now, if the department tried to bring everyone together again, for some trade-offs there. I know the Yellowknives Dene Band have some aspirations and I think some of those aspirations could be met without a tremendous amount of difficulty. I think that it is a matter that the city also has some longer term plans, the cottage owners want to get ownership, and in just talking to different parties, I get a sense that if somebody was willing to get in there and broach some arrangements, I think there is some possibility there. What I have heard from each individual group is a certain willingness to sit down and see if they can sort out some compromises on the trail. So, I wonder if I could ask the Minister if he and the department are prepared to continue to try to facilitate some compromise solutions as to the management of the Ingraham Trail?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, yes, if we are able to get together and do something positive, yes.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

I think he is offering to try to assist. Thanks very much, Mr. Ballantyne. Now, this is my list, so if there is anyone who hasn't put their hand up, then I'd like to know about it. After Mr. Ballantyne, Mr. Ningark, then Mr. Zoe, then Mr. Pudlat. Is there anybody else who wanted to jump in? Mr. Antoine. The next person is Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Qujannamiik. (Translation) Mr. Chairman, recently the MLA for Aivilik, James Arvaluk, said that some of the vehicles are used for paving or smoothing out the roads. Some of the equipment is easily breakable because, of course, the material on the equipment is not as sturdy as the material it encounters. Particularly, when they are working on paving the roads and maintaining the airstrips, they wear out and they tend to break down after a while. So, my question to the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman, is, on the vehicles and maintenance machinery that the municipal corporations own and receive from the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, how long is the shelf life? How long is the useful life of these vehicles supposed to be? I am sure this varies with the different types of machinery, meaning water trucks, sewage trucks and different kinds of maintenance vehicles that get replaced. How often are they replaced? How many years is the useful life for our dump trucks and sewage trucks and other maintenance types of vehicles? They probably get replaced after "X" number of years. Can you provide how long the life is, for these vehicles? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

(Translation) Through a set of standard criteria, details are provided within those documents that relate to the length of time the vehicles should operate. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also, if a municipal corporation obtains used vehicles, perhaps purchased at lower rates in order to save spending, that might be used for maintenance on airports or roads or when developing lands for building residential areas. But because, many times these vehicles break down at a faster rate resulting in stoppage of work, or, if a water truck breaks down or leaks occur, different maintenance problems occur, when these vehicles stop operating properly, I imagine that it ends up costing the government a lot of money to maintain these older vehicles. I realize fiscal restraint is the direction but it is difficult for the municipal corporations to receive parts for broken down vehicles. The service centres are a far distance from these communities, and, if you end up getting the wrong parts, there is another delay in ordering those parts over again. So, my question to the Minister is, are you still providing used or second-hand vehicles to municipal corporations? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

(Translation) I forgot to indicate in my earlier response concerning the criteria that I am able to get on this information. I can make the standards and criteria available to the Member. Sometimes, the smaller communities receive new vehicles called retrofits. I am not sure if all of the communities receive second-hand or retrofitted vehicles. Perhaps we can find out that information. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think Al Menard has been in the system long enough to know what the policies are. He has been around since the day I started working for the hamlet at the municipal level. This is where I had my first crack at training on the job for this job here. I would like to ask the Minister a question. In turn, perhaps, he can assign his

deputy minister to answer my question. Is there a policy whereby a municipal corporation needs the equipment and that government, in turn, will give a second-hand used car or truck, as the case may be? I know that was the case many years ago when I worked for the hamlet council. That is not always a good practice to get a second-hand used car for a municipal community because of the extreme conditions in our community. There is a time factor between the community and the supplier, so it is not always the cheapest way to deal in business. Is that still practised by the system? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

All right. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Menard to respond to that.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Menard.

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Menard

Mr. Chairman, the department does not have a policy to give used equipment to the communities. Most of the time, it is new equipment that is given to the communities. However, we do take advantage of opportunities. For example, recently, there was an opportunity to redirect some equipment from the DEW Line sites and, through DPW, they were inspected and we were advised that there would be some life left in the equipment from the DEW lines. It was assigned to various communities across the North, some of this used equipment. Another thing we might do is take the opportunities of retrofitting existing equipment from one community and sending it to another community, so we do some exchange. Very seldom, we will just take a broken down, used one and send it to a community. It is mostly all new equipment that goes into communities.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Menard. Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Many years ago, when I was a senior administrative officer for the hamlet of Pelly Bay, we requested a sewage truck for the community. It was under difficult circumstances because Pelly Bay is served by air only. Time went by and we got a sewage truck from Cambridge Bay. That machine did not last very long and it was very costly for the community. The deputy minister says that they are instructed by a person who works for DPW, but I am wondering if all the used equipment that is given to the communities is, in fact, in very good working condition. I don't have faith in the system whereby, when a community is so far away from the supplier, then the possibility of that equipment breaking down before the next fiscal year is very good. I hope the Minister and deputy minister will make a note of my concern. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

It is a comment, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a number of comments I would like to make. I agree with the Standing Committee on Finance. Generally, I am very pleased with the progress that has been made to date with the municipalities. I have a number of concerns I would like to raise. One is with regard to the issue that is raised. I think the Department of Finance, which is basically responsible for collecting taxes, is aware of it. It is with regard to the general taxation area. We recommended, through the standing committee, that MACA assist the Department of Finance to try to resolve the question of taxes. The issue is that, in general taxation areas, particularly in non-tax-based municipalities, we have a problem there.

The first issue stems from the fact that treaty people claim exemption from paying taxes, particularly with our school taxes. There is a big question being raised in those communities. For instance, I know the department is aware of it because I brought it up on a number of occasions, but this whole question hasn't been dealt with. I hope that the department gets together with Finance and tries to resolve this question once and for all. We have asked that the department start working closely and try to get this thing resolved as soon as possible. It seems like this whole issue of taxation is not being pursued rigorously. I am not sure why, because it is the department's responsibility in my view. It poses a problem because for the non-tax-based municipalities that want to get into controlling their own affairs, that incentive is not there because we have a problem in the general taxation area where people aren't paying their taxes. I note that the department isn't, to date, in my view, really assisting the Department of Finance in this whole area. I wonder if the Minister can comment on that particular concern.

In the Minister's response to the association's concerns, he indicated that they were working with Safety and Public Services and he wasn't too sure as to what the status of that was. I asked today what the status was of the negotiations between his department and Safety and Public Services and he wasn't sure. But, since he has his deputy beside him and his senior officials, I wonder if the Minister could give us an update on the status on the training initiative and the standardization of the fire fighting training at the municipal level?

Another area I wanted to touch on, Mr. Chairman, is about one of the communities in my constituency, Rae Edzo. Although the municipality is funded through formula funding, it appears that the department is currently treating Rae Edzo as two different municipalities. I'm sure that the department is aware that although Rae Edzo is one municipality, it is two towns. I would say it is something similar to the Iqaluit situation with its Apex subdivision.

In Rae-Edzo we have two communities under one municipal corporation that administers the two towns. The department, particularly when they are doing their capital planning, doesn't give consideration to Rae Edzo as two separate municipalities . Edzo wants to start building their basic municipal infrastructure for recreation, basic fire protection, et cetera; the same as any other municipality would get. They've been pushing the municipality for services but when the municipality sends in their wish list, it appears to me that the department doesn't consider them as two separate municipalities and lumps them in under one list. They fund them in that manner. I have been after the department to view it from a different perspective.

Although they are under one municipal corporation, they should be viewed -- particularly for capital planning -- as two distinct municipalities. It may come to the point where, if the residents of Edzo don't get basic programs and services, they may pursue other avenues. They may want to go on their own. That's why I'm strongly suggesting to the department that when they are doing their planning -- and particularly capital planning -- they should view that particular municipal corporation as two separate communities rather than just one.

Mr. Chairman, I know that the department has been doing a lot of work in computer programming for all municipalities. I wonder if the Minister could comment on the progress? I made a number of comments last year during the O and M and capital reviews about the computer program we are supporting in the municipalities. We had a problem with regard to that. I wonder if the Minister could update the committee about what's happening in the computer programming area we initiated before.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Because I'm sitting here, I have to remind myself and the Members that we are in fact reviewing the O and M estimates. We are not reviewing the capital estimates. I spoke to that earlier, myself, when I spoke about equipment. So, I have to remind myself and other Members of committee of the whole. Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Zoe seems to have...

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The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Zoe, go ahead.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I wasn't concluded with my opening remarks. I want to touch on a couple of more issues. Another issue I would like to pursue with the Minister is the issue of municipal elections. This issue was also raised at last year's annual general meeting of the Association of Municipalities. They are suggesting that maybe there should be more flexibility built into our Municipal Elections Act. They've asked that an amendment be considered so that it is more compatible to each community's needs.

It appears that a lot of municipalities aren't too comfortable with the set election dates in the Municipal Elections Act. They want to have more flexibility. I don't have a particular problem with that. I think that flexibility should be left to the municipalities. They have terms, a two year term or a one year term -- whatever it's called -- for councillors to serve, but perhaps there should be provisions incorporated into the act where they can call for election earlier so they can meet their own preference date by doing that, and something similar to the Territorial Elections Act. We know when the end of our term is, but the flexibility is with the Legislature to call and request the federal government to call an earlier election if need be. I wonder if that flexibility can be considered by the department so that flexibility is given to the municipalities. It seems like that is what the Association of Municipalities is pushing for. I don't know if that review, that the department indicated that they were going to do, is completed. I wonder if the Minister has any comments pertaining to that particular issue.

Mr. Chairman, I have a number of other issues that I wanted to raise, but I wanted to raise the issue of home owner fuel subsidy that the association...

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The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Zoe, you should allow the Minister to be able to respond to some of the concerns that you have raised. I think you have raised a number of concerns already. You have covered a number of areas. Perhaps, if you have any questions, try to make your questions as short as possible, perhaps one or two at a time. Perhaps, now the Minister will respond to the issues that Mr. Zoe has brought before this committee. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't realize that Mr. Zoe was going to ask all of these questions all at once. I wasn't taking notes from the beginning. For many of these, I think they are work that the department is doing. I would have to defer to the deputy minister, Mr. Menard.

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The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Menard, you have the blessing of your Minister. Go ahead.

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Menard

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to remember them in the order that the Member presented them. As far as the taxation, first of all, I must say that the mandate for taxation is not our department. We only have the mandate for assessment. However, we are close to the communities and we always try to bring their concerns up to the proper authorities. I presently sit on the deputy ministers' committee with the deputy ministers of Finance and Education, Culture and Employment to review all of the concerns that the Member brought forward about the taxation and the taxation issue. Also, it will come up as an issue in the review of the Education Act as well. We are providing advice to that committee from our department, and we are well-aware of the concerns. I think we are representing them well to the committee.

With regard to the issue of fire training, again, it is a very delicate and important issue, we find. We have been working closely with the communities. We know that the program is underfunded. However, the training responsibility is the fire marshal's. I think there is a report that has been finished, a joint report done by the fire marshal's office to review the whole training at the community level. What we try to do, from a department's point of view, for ease at the community level, when we provide equipment, we make sure that all the equipment is provided to go along with the fire halls or fire trucks. We try to encourage the communities to get their fire brigades up to speed and the fire marshals provide training in the community level. As well, we encourage the communities to get training outside of the community in the regional setting where we provide the money to the community to send their people to get trained in the regional setting or wherever. The fire marshal does training as well. We know we cannot address everything in that area with the formula funding because there is not enough money. We have no more money, so we have to come up with a new strategy. We are working with the new strategy. We are trying to work at the community level, but we have no expertise for fire training within our department.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Not to lose those people who want to speak, I have Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Antoine and Mr. Lewis. Mr. Zoe, you have the floor.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, with regard to the fire prevention and education, the deputy minister indicated that a report was concluded. Was that through your office and the fire marshal's office to develop this strategy that he is making reference to?

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

I believe the deputy minister responded to that by saying that the report is in the fire marshal's office and it is in draft form at this time.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I realize that the training is in the mandate of the fire marshal's office, which is the prevention and training component of it. Mr. Menard is correct. I know, through the capital allocation, under buying fire trucks, they bring in almost all of the equipment, including scotch air packs and boots, the whole package that comes with fire fighting, particularly equipment. The responsibility of fire fighting is within the municipal arena.

More and more, we are having difficulty, not only acquiring volunteers, but it puts much pressure and demand on these volunteers. Most of them are people who work during the day. The only time they have available to participate to do their training and inspections and have meetings is in the evenings if they want to get on with a fire brigade. I know that many fire brigades are not as active as they used to be. It is getting more difficult to get more volunteers. I like the idea of volunteer fire brigades, but it is getting more difficult. It is harder to recruit volunteers. That is the issue that I am trying to get at.

I am suggesting that, perhaps MACA and the fire marshal's office should get together and develop something, a standardized training program for all communities, or even go as far as creating positions as fire chiefs so that these people can be mandated to do, not only the prevention part, but they also do house inspections and the planning of running a volunteer fire brigade. We're not going as far as saying that we want fully paid fire brigades. I know it gets very costly if you go that route. Even in tax-based municipalities, it gets quite expensive, especially in this time of restraint. Maybe we should move away from volunteers, particularly with the fire chief position. Maybe we could make it a half-time position or even full-time with a by-law officer or something. I think that whole area has to be looked at.

More and more, it is getting difficult. There are a lot of people interested in volunteering for the fire brigade, especially in the small communities. But the communities are getting larger and larger and it is getting difficult. It takes a lot of time and effort to do this type of stuff. I think the prevention part of it is the concern I have also, Mr. Chairman. There isn't enough being done at the community level. You are supposed to do house inspections, fire reports, et cetera, and I'm not too sure those kinds of reports are being done across the territories. I've taken a look when the fire marshal's office produced the statistics on the number of fires we've had in the territories. They are up. That's why I'm raising the whole concern about fire fighting at the community level.

I think more emphasis has to be put on this whole area, not only for training on fire fighting but also on prevention. Someone has to go to houses and do visual inspections so that people aren't storing paint, et cetera, in their furnace room. As a former volunteer brigade member, we noticed that people put things in weird places. They don't realize the dangers until you point it out to them. During inspections that I used to do, Mr. Chairman, we used to give reports to the private home owners, the department, the fire marshal's office, the municipality and, if it was a home owned by the Housing Corporation, we used to give them a copy so that all the deficiencies are looked after. We recommended that tenants move things out of the paths of their escape routes and so forth.

The whole area of prevention is not really being pursued at the community level and I'm starting to have more and more concern for the safety of individuals because fire prevention isn't promoted as effectively as it should be. I think the department has to revisit the whole area and take a serious look at it.

Mr. Chairman, I have other issues, but they are more about what the department is currently doing. It is more of a progress report, so I won't get involved with the issues the department is currently undertaking. I wonder if the Minister or his deputy can comment on the couple of items I just mentioned. Thank you.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister, I believe there were a couple of questions that the honourable Member posed to the witness table. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can understand where the Member is coming from on the issue of fire protection training. In some of the communities that I represent, this has also been a concern. There is a need for training in the communities but I also understand that there is some training that goes on through the fire marshal's office in the communities. In fact, to some degree, the comments I've heard from the communities that I've been to is that the fire marshal goes a little too far sometimes. They are trying to close down buildings that are required in the community.

As far as funding is concerned, I tried to indicate earlier this afternoon that the funding that the municipalities receive is unconditional. It is up to the community and the priorities they have to highlight priority areas where they want to spend funds. As far as funding fire chiefs to become half-time or full-time positions, I think that is up to the community itself to decide that is enough of a priority to fund the program.

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The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Deputy Minister, go ahead.

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Menard

I'm not aware of the full details of that consultation, myself. I would have to refresh my memory because it was quite a while ago. I just know they're working on something. I'm not sure about the details.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Just one more, Mr. Chairman. In response to the Minister about fire prevention and education. The Minister indicated that the funding is unconditional. I think most Members understand that but there is a problem, particularly in non-tax-based communities. If you look at the state that the municipalities are in, if you look at the audits that were done on them, some of them are having serious financial problems. Even if we give them money for fire protection as unconditional funding, the first priority for that municipality would be to put that money towards their deficit. So in that instance, municipalities would do that, so it makes it more difficult for them to do anything with fire prevention or education at the community level. I have noticed many of our municipalities have a debt recovery plan in place and they are trying to get themselves out of debt.

For the last few years, we have had problems with the formula. It has only been two years since we implemented the last major changes to the formula financing for hamlets. Previously, because the municipalities weren't properly funded, they kept getting themselves into trouble, and many of these municipalities are still dealing with a debt recovery plan. Most of the funding, even though it is funded unconditionally, is put towards the deficit of the municipality. So it makes it even more difficult, when you talk about fire prevention and education at the community level. That doesn't even occur. The only thing you hear about is education material from the fire marshal's office, but nothing from the municipality in their fire prevention plans. The work isn't carried out at the community level. That is why I am raising these concerns. Maybe the department can take a look at giving separate funding for mandatory fire prevention. Maybe this whole issue should be reviewed by the department, rather than saying it is lumped into your unconditional funding. Perhaps it should be conditional funding. That is just a comment, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Pudlat.

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Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions to the Minister of MACA. Were the vehicles you purchased from the DEW Lines purchased at the original price for the communities? Were they given to you for free or did you have to pay for the vehicles obtained by your department? This is my first question. Thank you.

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The Chair John Ningark

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The question he raises is valid. From what I understand, the vehicles given to the department had to be paid for. We had to pay for the transportation from the DEW Line to the community, but they were given to the communities for free.

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The Chair John Ningark

(Translation) Thank you. Mr. Pudlat.

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Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you for responding to my question. This is not really a question, but more a comment to MACA. We are all aware we are going through fiscal restraint and it is getting harder to get funding. The hamlet councils in small communities are going through financial difficulties. This was the case with my constituents in 1993 and the beginning of 1994. I believe all of the smaller communities are going through that problem. But one of my constituents has been keeping me up to date with what is going on with the communities I represent. We are all aware that we are going through fiscal restraint as are employees in hamlet councils, especially those who started from 1983 on. Even though they are not losing their jobs, I think you are aware there are problems. Is it because there have been cuts from the federal government? What is the reason for the cutbacks, especially in Baffin South? We would appreciate more information as to why this is. In the 1993-94 fiscal year, the funding they get is less and less. When that is the case, the programs and services provided to the community... Where does this originate from? Is it from the federal government? I would like a response to this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair John Ningark

(Translation) Thank you. Mr. Minister, you can respond.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

(Translation) I will let my deputy minister respond to the question.

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The Chair John Ningark

(Microphone turned off)...hockey player, Mr. Al Menard.

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Menard

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me tell the Member we have been working with two of his communities in the last year, through the superintendents office, to try to do some debt recovery plans. I am advised that for Sanikiluaq and Lake Harbour the debt recovery is coming along very well and the communities should be back in the black come April 1.

There has been no cut from the department for the unconditional funding communities get. The funding they get is the same every year. We add on any forced growth items that come along through the capital plan and any inflationary increases that we get from the government. The money is in a pot and is distributed to the communities through a formula. The communities always get the same level from year to year.

So we think the formula is fair and equitable. The communities across the north get a fair share of the pot. Funding levels are good to allow the communities to meet some of their priorities in the municipal affairs areas. The formula does not address all the new initiatives that communities may want to take by other departments or other areas.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I have Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just one general area that I have a problem with in this Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. It is in the area of assistance to the small communities that are administered by the band councils rather than a municipal council. I have four of them in my constituency. Since day one of my involvement here, I have been trying to get something done here, and I was told last year that there was something in the works in the form of a small settlements' assistance program that is being formulated by a department. When I heard that, I was quite optimistic about it, but this hasn't come about yet.

One of the problems that small communities face is the lack of funding in the communities. Each band council receives funding, because of their size per capita, from the federal government. These small settlements that don't have very much assistance from the Government of the Northwest Territories use this band council money to administer the settlements. Whenever they are short, they ask the department for assistance. The band council money is used to run their settlements.

The deputy minister just made reference to a formula that is kept at a same level with a fair and equitable share of money. I don't believe that. I think these small communities have been short-changed for as many years as this government has been in place. That is the kind of treatment that small communities have been getting.

I know that the Premier has been making jokes, saying that the Deh Cho want to become separatist. Perhaps that is one of the reasons they want to do that. This government isn't sharing the money that is supposed to be shared fairly and equitably throughout the north to run their communities the way they should. There is a feeling in the communities in terms of government assistance. We hear how much assistance other communities are getting -- the hamlets and all over the place in the north and in the Arctic -- how much money each municipal government gets. If you divide the amount that these communities get per capita and you compare it to how much money has been spent in the communities I represent, you are going to see that it is not fair and equitable. If you go back to the time this government started until today, you are going to find that we have been short-changed. Some of the MLAs have been going into my communities and they have seen the problems that people exist in. That doesn't exist in any other place. That is all because of lack of money.

In terms of community development, I have been pushing community development for such a long time that I keep repeating myself, but one of the motions that the Standing Committee on Finance made this time around -- and there were other motions in this House in the past year -- deals with community development and this is to help these communities get stronger so they function like a good community so they have the financial and manpower resources developed so they can turn into strong communities. The only way the north is going to get strong is when each community is strong. The point I am making is that you have to start at the community level, the small communities as well. I fully support the motion that the Standing Committee on Finance made on community development.

These are the two areas that I have great concerns with this department. Other areas, there have been some changes made in my constituency with regard to this department. I think it will be positive in the long run. The people who work in the department in the region feel they need more assistance. They work with the communities quite closely. The problem is with the department's policy on assisting the small communities with more funding so they could administer their communities properly. Instead of using band council money to subsidize the administration of the communities, this government should be providing them with the full range of service they offer other communities. With that, I have one question I would like to ask the Minister. What is the status of this small settlements' assistance program that was in the works over the last year? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that the concern that the Member is raising is a good concern. I don't know if it is an inequity, but attention not being paid to the smaller communities, and I don't know what has created that to date, it is a point that has been taken well by the department. I would like to assure the Member that I have been asking the department where this has been, to find out whether this will be accessible to the communities or settlements by April 1. I think the department has been working hard on that particular policy.

The other area the Member has raised is also to do with community development which, again, has been done to some degree, as far as the staff are concerned on an ad hoc basis for councils. I think the department is working on creating a training program or some form of training for counsellors. For details on these, I would have to ask Mr. Menard to respond.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Menard.

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Menard

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On community development, in the past years, our approach being recognizing communities, it was basically left to the initiative of the community to come to us and ask for assistance. A few years back, when we tried to approach communities of the band nature, they said that they wanted to deal with the federal government instead of our government, so we backed off a little bit and we didn't push our services too much. Since the Member has been bringing it up to us for two years in a row, that he is unhappy with our support to communities, we have rejuvenated this emphasis. We are now approaching communities and asking them to identify some of their training needs and helping them out in identifying them as well. I think we are making good progress. We are doing that in a couple of ways. We did change some staff around. That should help a great deal. We are also developing these policies, which we have already used as a guideline to do capital planning last

year. We are using it this year, as well, and we are hopeful, according to our timetable that we should have these policies in front of Cabinet before the first of April. Hopefully, we can use them for distributing the money we have to the small communities by April 1.

To correct something, when I was talking a while ago on fair equity of dispositions, I was only talking about hamlets and up. I was not talking about the smaller communities.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. As a result of some of the comments I have heard, I want to make a comment. Part of my constituency is the Deh Cho Tribal Council area. Recently, they have been going into the communities and helping the smaller communities with training, with their own money, in the area of administration, with computers, financial management and so forth. This was at the request of the chiefs and council of each community to try to help the communities. I started asking the government about this over two years ago and nothing seems to be happening. So, they are finding money on their own to do this. I think there is a good opportunity here for this department to sit down and work with the tribal council to see how they could work together. Instead of duplicating the same type of service, they should coordinate and help each other out in this area. This is just a suggestion. Perhaps I could further suggest that this department's personnel in the region approach the tribal councils and see what areas they can coordinate and work with each other in to help the communities.

My main concern here is to help the communities and to strengthen the communities in the administrative area. I would like to see strong communities in the area I represent. That's the direction we're going. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. There was a suggestion from the honourable Member to the Minister. You could perhaps make a response, if you wanted to, Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

I'm not certain how tribal councils work but I'm assuming I understand where the Member is coming from. The manner in which the tribal councils administer themselves is likely different from the way the government administers itself. I understand that the superintendent of the area has had preliminary meetings with the tribal council and I hope that some form of agreement will be developed from those meetings.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Next on my list, I have Mr. Lewis, for Yellowknife Centre. Mr. Lewis.

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any broad, general comments but I'm interested in the community transfer initiative. I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about it. How exactly is the department involved in it? We're told that everything is on the table. Was the department a key player in developing the policy? The third thing is, what are prone to be the barriers, to date? I don't want to be negative, but I would like to know what the obstacles are. It seems to me that some progress has been made but it would be good for us to know some of the obstacles that have been encountered. We were given notice of a few today, including vacation travel assistance, benefits and things of that nature. Those are my three questions. I would be happy just to leave it at that.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not totally up to date on what has been going on as far as the community transfer initiative is concerned. I think the lead department has been Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs. I believe the department is involved now with some of the agreements. I would again have to defer to Mr. Menard on the details. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Lewis.

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

I recognize that there is a lead Minister with a coordinating responsibility. But, I've also worked in government for a long, long time and happen to know that departments have very clear mandates. It is clear, if you read the departmental overview, that the Minister and the department are responsible for community governments. That's what they do. So, they have to be responsible and responsive to residents. In fact, if you read the whole departmental overview, it talks about building on its long-standing partnership with community governments and councils. That's what you deal with, local governments.

What I wanted to know is to what degree -- since this is the department that deals with local issues and local governments and what they do -- of involvement is there, really? Although I recognize the need for overall coordination of anything -- with almost everything you do, you have to have someone pulling it all together -- I would like to know exactly what the experience is with MACA in the community transfer initiative program. It touches very closely the mandate of what that department does. I wanted to get some idea of what they've noted as being difficulties because whatever problems there are, this department has to deal with it. Whatever isn't working or what they see as not working that well from their point of view, they have to have an understanding of.

Are you involved in trying to resolve any difficulties that may exist in any of the transfer initiatives that communities would like to undertake? Maybe I'll just leave it at that. If the Minister is not that involved and he doesn't know, then I just won't pursue it any further.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Mr. Minister, you have a choice of responding or not to it. I think that's what Mr. Lewis was saying. You could leave it to later, but if you choose to comment, go ahead.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I have not been involved in the development of the community transfer initiatives but Mr. Menard certainly has been involved in the formation of some of these agreements. I'm not able to give any details on them but Mr. Menard would be able to, if that is what the Member would like to hear.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member indicates that if the deputy minister would like to reply, he would certainly be welcome.

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Menard

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has been involved, right from day one, in community transfer initiatives. In fact, we were the department that initiated the whole process back in the 1970s when we called it prime public authority. There is a long history to it and it had a lot of growing pains as it went along. Because we were unsuccessful as a department in our quest in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was felt that it would be better if it were coordinated through a central or another department. All along, we've been very supportive and involved in the process.

But, we have two roles to play. We have one role where we advise the government about things that may work or may not work at the community level in community transfers. We also have a role to advise the community as well. We've been playing that role all along. From what I know from the regional level, most community meetings are attended by our superintendents. I've attended some meetings with some communities where we give advice on how best to do things and how to deal with transitional issues. There are still a lot of issues unresolved, but we're involved with all the issues in trying to help the community transfer committee a working group to try to resolve some of those. In fact, yesterday, I was meeting with the mayor and the groups in Inuvik, trying to make some suggestions on how best to structure themselves to receive some of the programs, so we are involved.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Menard. Mr. Lewis.

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

I promised I would have no more questions. I would like to congratulate the deputy minister on a very clear answer.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

The Member would like to congratulate you on your conciseness, Mr. Menard. General comments, Mr. Arvaluk.

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was making general comments earlier, but, from my general comments, I would like to ask a couple of questions. One is in the definitive objectives, pages 13-6 and 13-7, with regard to community planning and lands. First of all, in community planning, I wanted to have a clarification from the fourth-last line, "to conduct three regional training sessions and planning administration for community councils and staff in the Baffin, Keewatin and Inuvik regions." However, I did not see in the Five Year Capital Forecast that there have been letters coming in and some recommendations. In fact, I got a letter from the mayor of Repulse Bay desiring them to develop a road or access road to the North Pole River to develop a gravel site with dual purposes, that is recreation, because it is a spot where the community uses it for spring-time fishing and it is also a traditional camp. It has become inaccessible during the break-up. It will have multiple purposes, but mostly for an access road for gravel, because we experienced a very bad effect on the marine wildlife when the blasting was taking place to crush the rock, et cetera. Secondly, the dump truck they had became unusable during last summer or fall because it is not designed to carry the boulders, et cetera. It was only to be used for sand. Is this a definitive objective on the fourth-last line that will make this kind of provision available for the five year capital forecast plan? I don't see any kind of financial indication as to what year this would be developed. Would there be a plan to develop it? Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I am not totally familiar with what the Member is asking. There were a number of related concerns that the Member is raising. One, to do with the crushing of gravel and the use of gravel, which comes under the Department of Public Works, as I understand it. The accessibility of the gravel, which requires an access road, comes under the Department of Transportation. With regard to this particular objective that is on page 13-6, "to conduct three regional training sessions," I understand the department does this every year, for planning and administration for community councils and staff. For any more detail on that, I would have to ask Mr. Menard to answer. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. Mr. Menard.

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Menard

I have nothing to add, Mr. Chairman, unless he wants specifically when and where we are going to hold them. We have that information available as well.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Menard. The honourable Member for Aivilik, Mr. Arvaluk.

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I should be specific. I don't know where you will find this definitive objective, or if it is even in the O & M, to make plans to make the access road built in Repulse Bay, because you have definitive objectives on the third last line, "to implement a management strategy for the Ingraham Trail area". I understand that is under DPW. Some of it is Transportation. Some of it is MACA. Are you initiating a similar type of development for a small community like Repulse Bay so that blasting of rocks will be stopped and affordable long-term gravel access can be made? I don't know how to be more specific.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that we have some misunderstanding. I hope that I will be able to clarify this. This particular objective is to indicate that the community is able to create a plan. This section of the department would be assisting the communities in creating their plan, but it is a community plan, not the department's plan. When the community has completed their plan, it is then up to the community to find the resources to be able to carry out that plan. Where they would be able to find the financial resources to carry out this plan would vary according to what segment of the community it would relate to. Again, the deputy minister is pointing out to me that could be assisted through the capital planning of the department.

As far as access roads are concerned, if this is planning which the community has identified, I believe the financial resources for this particular access road would be coming from the Department of Transportation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Arvaluk.

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Another question I had for MACA was when I was making general comments. There is a feeling in the community, especially the council, that they have been given more responsibility for policy and planning. It takes much of the council's and staff's time to deal with the community transfer initiative, the Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, and other agencies and bodies that must deal with the hamlets, Department of Economic Development, construction, capital planning, five year capital planning, et cetera. But, these are not funded, other than by the present formula financing that MACA has with the hamlets. A letter was recently written to the Minister from the Hamlet of Coral Harbour, dated February 11. Are there any plans to review the formula financing to allow the councils to devote time and funds to meet those policy planning developments for their communities?

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Minister Arngna'naaq.

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The funding formula created by the department is to help communities in the basic administration of their particular community. I believe the funding formula used by the department is used to distribute the funds that are available on an equitable basis. Each community then receives funds they are able to use for their basic administrative and other basic needs. If there are specialized areas that the communities want to get involved in, such as Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, or the community transfer initiative where they may want to take on Economic Development and Tourism, Social Services or any other department, I think the agreement they work on would have to include the financial resources required to administer that particular segment, because the funding formula used by the department is used to distribute funds for basic administrative needs only. If additional funds are required, then when discussions are taking place with the organization, those resources would have to be negotiated with that particular group. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The chair recognizes Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to say that I'm pleased that the department has been able to give some additional funding to the municipalities, including the tax-based municipalities, and has perhaps done so by restraining its own PY growth. I think these additional transfer payments are timely and will make it just a little bit easier for our municipal governments to survive.

Mr. Chairman, the one matter I would like to seek some response from the Minister on has to do with the subject of the recommendation by SCOF passed in this committee earlier today. That has to do with the clear guidelines for the dissolution of a council and its reinstatement. I understand that the department is open to this recommendation and perhaps feels that after the difficulties associated with the dissolution of

the council in Iqaluit it might be better for all concerned if a process is laid out.

My question is as follows, Mr. Chairman. While we're waiting for these guidelines to be developed and perhaps reflected in legislative amendments -- which I certainly appreciate takes some time -- in the meantime the Minister is going to have to deal with a real live situation in the second-largest municipality in the territories right now. The situation is that there is a growing degree of concern in my constituency about getting an elected council back. It comes not just from the members of the municipal advisory council who really are doing their best, I think. But they are feeling some reluctance about being there too much longer simply because they know they're not elected and they're vulnerable to being criticized because they're not elected. I think they'll be leading the charge by saying that there should be an election.

Then there are the ordinary citizens of the community who I think are generally very interested in the goings-on of the municipality. This may be one good aspect of this affair, that it's provoked a higher degree of interest on the part of the community in municipal affairs. But they're now anxious, I think, to really have a voice. My reading of the situation, Mr. Chairman, is that the high degree of interest that is evident in the community could translate into a very healthy effect. Namely, that there will be numerous candidates and there will be good candidates running for mayor and council when an election is held.

I guess what I'm respectfully suggesting to the Minister is that some time has passed since the decision was taken to dissolve the council. An experienced, able, senior, now retired, MACA employee has been there now for going on four months doing, what I'm told, is good work with the appointed municipal advisory council. The question now arising is what is the government now looking for to give the nod to restoring democracy in Iqaluit? I guess I would like to ask the Minister -- in a general way, because there are no guidelines in place now even though they will be developed I'm sure and I'm glad to see that -- what is required before an election can be held? What is standing in the way of an election being held in Iqaluit? In other words, what steps is the Minister going to expect of the administration of the community before we can get the town back on a normal footing with an elected council? Thank you.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 423

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Iqaluit. Minister Arngna'naaq.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
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Page 423

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can understand the concern that the Member raises with regard to Iqaluit. I tend to think of it as though it was one of the communities that I represent, whereby I would be just as anxious as the Member appears to be in his expressions this afternoon. I think one of the concerns I would have is when the restoration of an elected body in the community is brought in, that the new council would be assured what they are taking on is something that is not only financially sound, but is administratively sound, as well. What I am waiting for is a recommendation from the municipal administrator, upon the advice of the advisory committee, to indicate to me that the municipality is now ready for an election. Even then, I think an evaluation would have to take place once a recommendation

has been received from the municipal administrator. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Iqaluit.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
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Page 424

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is helpful advice. One thing I would like to mention is that the Minister referred to the need for sound administration as a desirable factor before a new council is elected. Having met recently with the municipal advisory committee, I think there is a desire there because there is a good deal of lead time required to advertise, interview, short list, et cetera, potential candidates for the senior administrative officer job. I think there is quite an openness to continuing to work with Mr. Beaumont even after an election in order to ensure there is a good continuity and a transition period that is carefully planned. I would like to inform the Minister that, one of the ways a sound administration could be assured would be if Mr. Beaumont could still be made available to the community even after an election might be called. I think that is something the Minister can do, which is to allow him to continue working through an election and with a newly elected council, and then to oversee, with his experience and his knowledge of the problems, the hiring of a replacement for himself.

The other thing I would like to mention is that I believe the Minister will, in relatively short order, get a formal recommendation from the municipal advisory committee on the timing of an election. I think it will be in the direction of an early election.

Mr. Chairman, about the Minister's comments for a need for an operational evaluation, I can accept this, but I would like to note that there has been a great deal of evaluating undergone in Iqaluit in the last 12 or 18 months. I have seen a very detailed report done by the department which raised questions and flagged some of the problems that led to the council's dissolution. I would venture to say that Mr. Beaumont, since he has been working as the municipal administrator, has probably, in effect, been doing an ongoing operational evaluation of the municipality just as part of his job. I have no problems with an operational review, but I hope that, in light of all the work that has been done to date and the fact that the Minister's appointee has been there now for three or four months, leaving no stone unturned, does this operational evaluation need to be an elaborate, time consuming process, or can it build on the work that I suspect has already been done? Is that a major time consumer, that kind of an evaluation, or could it be done quickly if it is determined that an early election is desirable? Thank you.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know whether the municipal administrator, as an independent person, would be willing or able to stay on after council has been elected, which is one of the areas that the Member has raised. However, I believe there is a recommendation that an SAO could be hired on by the advisory committee and the municipal administrator, and would be able to work with the municipal administrator until an election is held. When the election is held, whether the new council would be willing to work with the new SAO would be something that the new council would have to decide.

As far as the municipal administrator, no. He is an independent contractor. Being an independent contractor, if he is willing to work with the new elected council, that would be for Mr. Beaumont to decide. I am told that an evaluation of an operation such as Iqaluit run by an administrator would likely take about a week for an operational review to take place. Again, I would like to state that I would like to be sure that, when an election is held, the new council is taking on an operation which is on the advice of the municipal administrator, and the evaluation is in a sound position for a new council to take over. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Iqaluit.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 424

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess we would like to have all of our municipalities in that kind of a sound position, but I understand what the Minister is saying. I hope that Iqaluit can soon meet that test. In fact, I am confident that it will.

Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make one closing comment on this issue, which I think is appropriate for general comments. To me, the success of this department, in many ways, is measured by the success of the municipalities. Where they are doing well, it reflects well on the department. Where there are hiccoughs, then it suggests that work and support is required, although not all of these problems can be laid at the feet of the department, I know. I would just like to say since we're talking about the process of resurrecting a dissolved council that, to me, it's silly to say that an appointed committee and an appointed administrator should hire a senior administrative officer who then will have to get along with an elected council.

To me, that's a high risk situation. I know it's been discussed by the municipal advisory committee because there's been some talk on Mr. Beaumont's part, I understand, on starting the moves to recruit a senior administrative officer. I've got to say that I believe the chemistry has got to be right between the duly elected council and that senior administrative officer. What I would like to recommend is before an SAO is hired, hold an election so that senior administrative officer can be hired by the council that person is going to have to work with, not by an advisory committee or an appointed administrator who might well not be there for the long-term. That would be my advice to the department.

As far as the question about whether Mr. Beaumont would be willing to remain on, I understand that the Cabinet order originally contemplated a term for him to the end of the 1994 year and that term might now have been shortened on the expectation that an election might occur before the end of the calendar year. I would suggest that even though, obviously, the independent contractor's opinion is important, if he is instructed by the Minister that completing the work requires staying on through the election and assisting with the hiring of a new SAO before going back to retirement, or whatever else he would like to do, I'm sure the Minister's good offices could be used to encourage that transition to take place. I would like to suggest that, with the support of the department and the Minister, that scenario might well be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

Those are just some comments, Mr. Chairman. I suspect that there will be other opportunities to pursue this matter in the Legislature once I get a formal resolution from the municipal advisory committee. But, I do appreciate the comments and the information I received today. Thank you.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Minister Arngna'naaq.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the most part, I would have to agree with what the Member is saying. The formation of a process by which all municipalities would be able to understand and follow things that should be done is needed. I think that process will be ongoing, especially with the Association of Municipalities. I think the suggestion made by the Member earlier in his general comments was also very good, and that when an administrator is put into a community, a dissolution process should also be clarified. Right now we don't have that. At this point, I've been holding off and saying I would like to take a good look at what options are available before we carry on. I think advice from Members like Mr. Patterson is valuable because he is experiencing a unique situation in the territories.

However, I would also like to remind the Member that Mr. Beaumont is in Iqaluit as a municipal administrator and that once an elected body is put into place in Iqaluit, he is no longer a municipal administrator. He would be an independent person and it would be up to Mr. Beaumont, as Mr. Beaumont and not as a municipal administrator, to decide whether he wants to stay on in Iqaluit. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Any further general comments? Mr. Ningark, the honourable Member for Natilikmiot.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had my hand up earlier, I think you have my name on the list there. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I have a concern I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister. Unlike Mr. Patterson, my colleague from Iqaluit, I'm not going to try to influence the system on who should be hired or retained at the local level. There might be 20 other people who might be voting in the next election.

Anyway, my concern, Mr. Chairman, is a by-law enforcement officer position is a very, very important position in the community, especially when you are dealing with the community's corporation.

The person who is working as an enforcement officer for a community corporation should be trained. I have talked to the by-law officer in Pelly Bay on a number of occasions as well as with the officers in Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak. They are very interested in learning about their jobs in the community. There are times when a by-law officer is called to check into problems of people they are dealing with. I have, on several occasions, before the Honourable Silas Arngna'naaq became the Minister, approached some of the other Ministers on this issue. I hope that the government will give the financial resources and cultivate a plan to get training going within the system. I hope the Minister will keep that in mind. Thank you.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Natilikmiot. Any further general comments? If not, does the committee agree we proceed line by line?

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Line By Line

Directorate

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

We'll begin on page 13-10, under directorate, operations and maintenance, total O and M, $3.764 million.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Community Works And Capital Planning

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Community works and capital planning, total O and M, $1.428 million.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Community Planning

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Community planning, total O and M, $1.447 million.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Surveys And Mapping

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Surveys and mapping, total O and M, $358,000.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Sport And Recreation

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Sport and recreation, total O and M, $8.348 million.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Municipal Operations And Assessment

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Municipal operations and assessment, total O and M, $47.953 million. Mr. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 425

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

I just have one question to do with assessment in the city of Yellowknife. There have been some problems with controversy over the years between some of the

downtown business people and city council. There has been some controversy about the actual assessed value of land downtown. This has gone on for a number of years and has caused quite a bit of concern. I just wonder if the Minister could give me an update. There has been a number of appeals, discussions, assessment board rulings, et cetera. So the situation is confusing. Is there any clarity that we can look forward to receiving?

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister Arngna'naaq.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have heard of the difficulty Mr. Ballantyne is referring to. However, I don't know the details of the particular problems. I will ask Mr. Menard to answer the question.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Arngna'naaq. Mr. Menard.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Menard

There were quite a few issues mentioned by the Member, Mr. Chairman. I will address some of them. One of the main ones is that there is a lot of confusion within the public on assessments, but more than that, on the taxation side which is land classification, et cetera. We recently met with the city of Yellowknife and we are now going to look at a new way to do assessments in Yellowknife and we are going to try to use northern costs instead of southern costs. We met with the director of finance recently and we set up a committee. Hopefully, in the new year, in the tax year 1995, we will have a new basis for assessments which will eliminate many different classifications of land. It will equalize things better for the city of Yellowknife and it will probably be a model we will use in other tax-based municipalities in the north. So we are going to be developing a northern cost instead of an Edmonton cost factored up. So we are progressing very well in that area.

As for the process of appeals, we had a situation recently, which was an oversight on MACA's part, no doubt about that, and it had to do with classification, not assessment. It was also the city's oversight because they had three opportunities to check it and so did we. It was also an oversight on the taxpayer. So we will be looking at the process again to make sure we don't miss these things when the reviews take place. That is why there is a process like that. The process is outlined in the legislation that says the taxing authority has so many days to review the assessment role and the taxpayer also has a chance to review his assessment and his tax bill. In this case, it was missed by everyone. We are committed to sit down with the three parties together to try to resolve this the best way we can. But it has been a difficult area to deal with in the city because the city is different. Maybe it is the size or type of buildings. When we deal with the building cost, it will stabilize the land cost because the shift won't be as great from one commodity to the other. So we hope we can resolve those issues.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Menard. Mr. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

I thank the deputy minister for that. I take it then, Mr. Minister, we have a commitment that if there were problems in the past caused by oversights on the part of MACA or the city that the department will work at resolving those and that we can look forward in the future to a new system which will mean we can avoid these sorts of problems.

I will tell the Minister there has been an ongoing debate in this city about assessed values of the downtown as opposed to the large developments out in the suburbs of the city. There is a strong school of thought that it is not a level playing field. There have been court cases and numerous appeals. It gets to the very fundamental basis of how a city can operate and how a business community can thrive. If the Minister could give the commitment that the problems in the past will be resolved and that working with all parties, we hope to devise a system that will avoid these problems in the future.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Minister Arngna'naaq.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Yes, Mr. Chairman. We will work on it.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. A good short answer. Municipal operations and assessment, $47.953 million.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Lands

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Lands, total O and M, $1.255 million.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

The chair recognizes Mr. Ballantyne and then Mr. Ng.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, this is a follow-up to my earlier question about the Ingraham Trail. There has been a commitment by this government for three or four years that the cottage leases on Commissioner's land will be offered for sale, fee-simple, to the present owners. There have been some problems because of ongoing land claims and treaty discussions, but does the Minister see that within the next year some of these lots on Commissioner's land will be offered to the present occupants?

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. Minister Arngna'naaq.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I am told, yes.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. The chair recognizes Mr. Ng. We have one minute, Mr. Ng.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick question relating to lands. Are the access fees for the Inuvialuit lands included under this section? Thank you.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 426

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ng. Minister Arngna'naaq.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 427

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will have to ask Mr. Menard to answer that question.

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 427

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

The time has run out, Mr. Minister. The clock says 6:00. So you will have all evening to think of the answer. I shall rise and report progress. On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank the Minister and the witnesses for appearing here today and we look forward to seeing you again.

---Applause

Committee Motion 17-12(5): To Adopt Recommendation 27, Carried
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 427

The Speaker

I will call the House back to order. Item 19, report of committee of the whole.

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 427

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 1 and Committee Report 2-12(5) and would like to report progress with two motions being adopted and, Madam Speaker, I move that the report of the committee of the whole be concurred with.

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 427

The Speaker

Is there a seconder for the motion? The honourable Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 20, third reading of bills. Item 21, Mr. Clerk, orders of the day.

Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Page 427

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Madam Speaker, there will be a meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance immediately after adjournment. Meetings for tomorrow morning at 9:00 am of the Caucus and at 10:30 am of the Ordinary Members' Caucus. Orders of the day for Tuesday, March 1, 1994.

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Oral Questions

6. Written Questions

7. Returns to Written Questions

8. Replies to Opening Address

9. Petitions

10. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

11. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

12. Tabling of Documents

13. Notices of Motion

14. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills

15. Motions

16. First Reading of Bills

17. Second Reading of Bills

18. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95

- Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1993-94

- Committee Report 2-12(5), Review of the 1994-95 Main

Estimates

- Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business

- Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards an NWT Mineral

Strategy

- Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning

Strategy

- Tabled Document 11-12(5), First Annual Report of the

Languages Commissioner of the NWT for the Year

1992-93

19. Report of Committee of the Whole

20. Third Reading of Bills

21. Orders of the Day

Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Page 427

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until Tuesday, March 1, 1994, at 1:30 pm.

---ADJOURNMENT