Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just one general area that I have a problem with in this Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. It is in the area of assistance to the small communities that are administered by the band councils rather than a municipal council. I have four of them in my constituency. Since day one of my involvement here, I have been trying to get something done here, and I was told last year that there was something in the works in the form of a small settlements' assistance program that is being formulated by a department. When I heard that, I was quite optimistic about it, but this hasn't come about yet.

One of the problems that small communities face is the lack of funding in the communities. Each band council receives funding, because of their size per capita, from the federal government. These small settlements that don't have very much assistance from the Government of the Northwest Territories use this band council money to administer the settlements. Whenever they are short, they ask the department for assistance. The band council money is used to run their settlements.

The deputy minister just made reference to a formula that is kept at a same level with a fair and equitable share of money. I don't believe that. I think these small communities have been short-changed for as many years as this government has been in place. That is the kind of treatment that small communities have been getting.

I know that the Premier has been making jokes, saying that the Deh Cho want to become separatist. Perhaps that is one of the reasons they want to do that. This government isn't sharing the money that is supposed to be shared fairly and equitably throughout the north to run their communities the way they should. There is a feeling in the communities in terms of government assistance. We hear how much assistance other communities are getting -- the hamlets and all over the place in the north and in the Arctic -- how much money each municipal government gets. If you divide the amount that these communities get per capita and you compare it to how much money has been spent in the communities I represent, you are going to see that it is not fair and equitable. If you go back to the time this government started until today, you are going to find that we have been short-changed. Some of the MLAs have been going into my communities and they have seen the problems that people exist in. That doesn't exist in any other place. That is all because of lack of money.

In terms of community development, I have been pushing community development for such a long time that I keep repeating myself, but one of the motions that the Standing Committee on Finance made this time around -- and there were other motions in this House in the past year -- deals with community development and this is to help these communities get stronger so they function like a good community so they have the financial and manpower resources developed so they can turn into strong communities. The only way the north is going to get strong is when each community is strong. The point I am making is that you have to start at the community level, the small communities as well. I fully support the motion that the Standing Committee on Finance made on community development.

These are the two areas that I have great concerns with this department. Other areas, there have been some changes made in my constituency with regard to this department. I think it will be positive in the long run. The people who work in the department in the region feel they need more assistance. They work with the communities quite closely. The problem is with the department's policy on assisting the small communities with more funding so they could administer their communities properly. Instead of using band council money to subsidize the administration of the communities, this government should be providing them with the full range of service they offer other communities. With that, I have one question I would like to ask the Minister. What is the status of this small settlements' assistance program that was in the works over the last year? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that the concern that the Member is raising is a good concern. I don't know if it is an inequity, but attention not being paid to the smaller communities, and I don't know what has created that to date, it is a point that has been taken well by the department. I would like to assure the Member that I have been asking the department where this has been, to find out whether this will be accessible to the communities or settlements by April 1. I think the department has been working hard on that particular policy.

The other area the Member has raised is also to do with community development which, again, has been done to some degree, as far as the staff are concerned on an ad hoc basis for councils. I think the department is working on creating a training program or some form of training for counsellors. For details on these, I would have to ask Mr. Menard to respond.

Thank you. Mr. Menard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On community development, in the past years, our approach being recognizing communities, it was basically left to the initiative of the community to come to us and ask for assistance. A few years back, when we tried to approach communities of the band nature, they said that they wanted to deal with the federal government instead of our government, so we backed off a little bit and we didn't push our services too much. Since the Member has been bringing it up to us for two years in a row, that he is unhappy with our support to communities, we have rejuvenated this emphasis. We are now approaching communities and asking them to identify some of their training needs and helping them out in identifying them as well. I think we are making good progress. We are doing that in a couple of ways. We did change some staff around. That should help a great deal. We are also developing these policies, which we have already used as a guideline to do capital planning last

year. We are using it this year, as well, and we are hopeful, according to our timetable that we should have these policies in front of Cabinet before the first of April. Hopefully, we can use them for distributing the money we have to the small communities by April 1.

To correct something, when I was talking a while ago on fair equity of dispositions, I was only talking about hamlets and up. I was not talking about the smaller communities.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. As a result of some of the comments I have heard, I want to make a comment. Part of my constituency is the Deh Cho Tribal Council area. Recently, they have been going into the communities and helping the smaller communities with training, with their own money, in the area of administration, with computers, financial management and so forth. This was at the request of the chiefs and council of each community to try to help the communities. I started asking the government about this over two years ago and nothing seems to be happening. So, they are finding money on their own to do this. I think there is a good opportunity here for this department to sit down and work with the tribal council to see how they could work together. Instead of duplicating the same type of service, they should coordinate and help each other out in this area. This is just a suggestion. Perhaps I could further suggest that this department's personnel in the region approach the tribal councils and see what areas they can coordinate and work with each other in to help the communities.

My main concern here is to help the communities and to strengthen the communities in the administrative area. I would like to see strong communities in the area I represent. That's the direction we're going. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. There was a suggestion from the honourable Member to the Minister. You could perhaps make a response, if you wanted to, Mr. Minister.

I'm not certain how tribal councils work but I'm assuming I understand where the Member is coming from. The manner in which the tribal councils administer themselves is likely different from the way the government administers itself. I understand that the superintendent of the area has had preliminary meetings with the tribal council and I hope that some form of agreement will be developed from those meetings.

Thank you. Next on my list, I have Mr. Lewis, for Yellowknife Centre. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any broad, general comments but I'm interested in the community transfer initiative. I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about it. How exactly is the department involved in it? We're told that everything is on the table. Was the department a key player in developing the policy? The third thing is, what are prone to be the barriers, to date? I don't want to be negative, but I would like to know what the obstacles are. It seems to me that some progress has been made but it would be good for us to know some of the obstacles that have been encountered. We were given notice of a few today, including vacation travel assistance, benefits and things of that nature. Those are my three questions. I would be happy just to leave it at that.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not totally up to date on what has been going on as far as the community transfer initiative is concerned. I think the lead department has been Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs. I believe the department is involved now with some of the agreements. I would again have to defer to Mr. Menard on the details. Thank you.

I recognize that there is a lead Minister with a coordinating responsibility. But, I've also worked in government for a long, long time and happen to know that departments have very clear mandates. It is clear, if you read the departmental overview, that the Minister and the department are responsible for community governments. That's what they do. So, they have to be responsible and responsive to residents. In fact, if you read the whole departmental overview, it talks about building on its long-standing partnership with community governments and councils. That's what you deal with, local governments.

What I wanted to know is to what degree -- since this is the department that deals with local issues and local governments and what they do -- of involvement is there, really? Although I recognize the need for overall coordination of anything -- with almost everything you do, you have to have someone pulling it all together -- I would like to know exactly what the experience is with MACA in the community transfer initiative program. It touches very closely the mandate of what that department does. I wanted to get some idea of what they've noted as being difficulties because whatever problems there are, this department has to deal with it. Whatever isn't working or what they see as not working that well from their point of view, they have to have an understanding of.

Are you involved in trying to resolve any difficulties that may exist in any of the transfer initiatives that communities would like to undertake? Maybe I'll just leave it at that. If the Minister is not that involved and he doesn't know, then I just won't pursue it any further.

Mr. Chairman, I have not been involved in the development of the community transfer initiatives but Mr. Menard certainly has been involved in the formation of some of these agreements. I'm not able to give any details on them but Mr. Menard would be able to, if that is what the Member would like to hear.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has been involved, right from day one, in community transfer initiatives. In fact, we were the department that initiated the whole process back in the 1970s when we called it prime public authority. There is a long history to it and it had a lot of growing pains as it went along. Because we were unsuccessful as a department in our quest in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was felt that it would be better if it were coordinated through a central or another department. All along, we've been very supportive and involved in the process.

But, we have two roles to play. We have one role where we advise the government about things that may work or may not work at the community level in community transfers. We also have a role to advise the community as well. We've been playing that role all along. From what I know from the regional level, most community meetings are attended by our superintendents. I've attended some meetings with some communities where we give advice on how best to do things and how to deal with transitional issues. There are still a lot of issues unresolved, but we're involved with all the issues in trying to help the community transfer committee a working group to try to resolve some of those. In fact, yesterday, I was meeting with the mayor and the groups in Inuvik, trying to make some suggestions on how best to structure themselves to receive some of the programs, so we are involved.

I promised I would have no more questions. I would like to congratulate the deputy minister on a very clear answer.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was making general comments earlier, but, from my general comments, I would like to ask a couple of questions. One is in the definitive objectives, pages 13-6 and 13-7, with regard to community planning and lands. First of all, in community planning, I wanted to have a clarification from the fourth-last line, "to conduct three regional training sessions and planning administration for community councils and staff in the Baffin, Keewatin and Inuvik regions." However, I did not see in the Five Year Capital Forecast that there have been letters coming in and some recommendations. In fact, I got a letter from the mayor of Repulse Bay desiring them to develop a road or access road to the North Pole River to develop a gravel site with dual purposes, that is recreation, because it is a spot where the community uses it for spring-time fishing and it is also a traditional camp. It has become inaccessible during the break-up. It will have multiple purposes, but mostly for an access road for gravel, because we experienced a very bad effect on the marine wildlife when the blasting was taking place to crush the rock, et cetera. Secondly, the dump truck they had became unusable during last summer or fall because it is not designed to carry the boulders, et cetera. It was only to be used for sand. Is this a definitive objective on the fourth-last line that will make this kind of provision available for the five year capital forecast plan? I don't see any kind of financial indication as to what year this would be developed. Would there be a plan to develop it? Thank you.