The motion is in order. Does everybody have a copy of the motion? Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am in support of this motion, although not so much in the small communities at this time. There are very poorly coordinated efforts between different departments of what the capital needs are, especially in small communities. For example, in Repulse Bay, we have crushed rock used for municipal roads and development sites. Because it is in a small community, that community is issued a regular dump truck that is designed for sand hauling, not rocks and boulders the size of Madam Speaker's table. They are dumped in the dump truck from the payloader right into the box of the truck. Of course, the truck box is only a quarter of an inch thick and it becomes bent completely out of shape. After a while, the rocks start going through the box completely.

Within one summer and a half, the truck was absolutely useless because it not only works overtime, it was also allowed to take on the work that is beyond its capability. Yet, in the capital plans, there is no immediate plan to replace it. I am very, very hopeful that this motion, recommendation 27, will be reviewed very carefully and abided by the government so that these sorts of scenarios in small communities will no longer continue. Qujannamiik.

Thank you, very much, Mr. Arvaluk. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

You've offered, Mr. Minister, to answer some questions. Mr. Zoe, sorry.

The report was concluded before we went to the motion, Mr. Zoe.

---Laughter

Thanks, Mr. Zoe. You offered to answer some questions for the committee, Mr. Arngna'naaq, so would you like to take the witness table and get some help? Sergeant-at-Arms, conduct the witnesses to the table, please. Oh, but I don't have the authority to do that. Are Members happy with that proposal?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Okay. Mr. Arngna'naaq, would you like to identify your witnesses for the record, please?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my right is Mr. Al Menard, the deputy minister of the department and to my left is Jim France, director of finance and administration.

Thank you, very much, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Do Members have either comments or questions that they would like to pose for the Minister? Mr. Arvaluk.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a general comment first and I probably will have more specific questions after. I received a copy of a letter that was addressed to the honourable Minister responsible for MACA regarding formula funding for hamlets. I will just elaborate a little bit because I have elaborated on it for the Minister of Finance already. Last week, I said I would be presenting this case to the Minister when he comes before this committee to deal with MACA's O and M. The hamlet councils and I are concerned that the formula funding currently being provided to the hamlets is insufficient to meet the increasing demands being put on municipal governments in the NWT, particularly the small communities within Nunavut that I mentioned before. Since the development of the prime buy concept, hamlet councils have been assuming greater responsibility for evaluating and deciding upon critical local development issues. As the formation of Nunavut approaches, the volume of activity for hamlets within Nunavut is increasing even more than before.

Currently, hamlets feel they have insufficient funding for basic administrative support to deal with the routine business of running a municipal corporation. The administrative support is insufficient to devote the time needed for policy and program development in support of the council. Mr. Chairman, what I'm trying to say here is, hamlets do not only have to deal with MACA in the day to day running of the community. Other departments, agencies and organizations do not fund municipalities to deal with program and policy development. For example, the Nunasi Corporation, the NTI, DPW and Education all come to the hamlet for support that takes quite a bit of hamlets' time. Both in terms of the council's time and the administration time. There are not sufficient funds to allow other activities to take place in the area of policy and program development.

What we have been seeing is that there are too many people involved in separate programs at the territorial government level. That also creates much of the problem. One small example of this is that last year, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment advised us that funding for an apprentice that we had on staff in the hamlet was being eliminated. Since we could no longer afford to keep that person without funding assistance, we issued the person a lay- off notice. Within a couple of days of issuing the lay-off notice, another person from within the same office of the government advised us that they did have another program through which the person could be funded. This is but one small example of how it is confusing if you are a hamlet dealing with all kinds of departments. It becomes very frustrating. If there was one department dealing and coordinating with hamlets and between the departments the hamlet is dealing with, this would make it a lot easier.

Another issue of concern is the employees of the hamlets have requested that they be given equal treatment with the GNWT employees, with respect to vacation travel assistance. I talked about this with the Minister of Finance when he was at the witness table. Currently, the hamlet of Coral Harbour, for example, follows the old system whereby those going out on the land don't get nearly as much as those who take a flight somewhere like Winnipeg. As the majority of our hamlet employees either take on the land assistance or fly to destinations much closer to Coral Harbour than Winnipeg, the hamlet could not afford the additional funds required to move to the new government system without significant increases in the amount of formula funding that currently exists.

What the hamlet is requesting is that our formula funding be increased so that we can provide the same level of benefits to hamlet employees as government employees currently enjoy. The concern, Mr. Chairman, is that there is pressure, fairly attractive pressure, to have the hamlet be more involved under the transfer initiative program. Some of these initiatives will affect present government employees. For example, if the hamlet wants to take over the Department of Public Works, the maintenance person from Public Works will probably be transferred to the hamlet but that person will want to continue to enjoy his present benefits. Because such a move will probably be blended into the formula funding, rather than a separate agreement, that person will be denied what he used to enjoy when he was a government employee.

These are the kinds of concerns, Mr. Chairman, that the hamlet and I look forward to getting a favourable response on. I totally support the hamlet's request that there is an overview, at least a review of the present formula financing in light of the initiatives that will be taking place under the Honourable Minister Kakfwi.

Another concern I have in my general comments, Mr. Chairman, is that I asked a question of the Minister of MACA early this afternoon that required just a yes or no answer. On February 22, the Minister could not reply to my question regarding hockey players -- who happened to come from a small community, that being Coral Harbour -- who came in second and not one of them was selected for the Arctic Winter Games team. When the Minister did not know what the selection process was, I asked him to look into it and he promised to look into the matter to ensure that fairness and equality was practised in the selection process to avoid discrimination against small communities. My simple question this morning was, had the Minister found out why no players from the senior men's hockey team that came in second place were chosen to represent the Northwest Territories in the Arctic Winter Games in Slave Lake, Alberta this month.

My simple question, Mr. Chairman, was had the Minister found out. The answer should have been yes or no, either he found out or didn't find out. He took the question as notice. I really wonder why the question was taken as notice when the answer would have been yes or no. If he hadn't found out, fine. If he had, I would have wanted to find out what the selection process is that was used. I was a little bit disappointed. We have only four days left before Arctic Winter Games starts. I believe they start on Saturday and it would be very nice to be able to report back to Coral Harbour to say what I found out. To say either, we're sorry, we're still very proud of you but this is what the Minister said. Yet, to date, I have not received a response. These are my general comments, Mr. Chairman. If we are going through the estimates line by line, I will probably have more. Qujannamiik.

Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Those were general comments. There were no questions in there. There were references to questions that were already answered in the formal session. But, if the Minister wants to respond to the comments, he may.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There were a number of different items in the comments made by the Member. I think if he were to ask specific questions, I would be able to respond. As far as the particular question that the Member asked earlier this afternoon, I didn't realize the Member was asking for a yes or no answer and I apologize for that. I would like to indicate that I have not come to a complete answer to that particular question which is why I took the question as notice.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Are there any other Members? Mr. Arvaluk, I had thought you had finished your general comments? Yes. Mr. Ballantyne.

Mr. Chairman, as a general comment, the Standing Committee on Finance is generally satisfied with the work of this department. We do have one question. There were, I think, 27 definitive objectives put forth by the department in the main estimates book. It was the observation of the standing committee that most departments seem to have quite a large number of objectives for the year. A definitive objective is supposed to be an objective that can be realized reasonably within the course of a year. We asked for some detail from each department as to how they were actually going to complete their objectives, when they took specific time frames, et cetera.

I observe that we have received a page of 1994-95 initiatives back from the department. It just has two objectives on the page. Perhaps the Minister could explain to me how this all works. Are these two the two they expect to get done and they don't expect to get the rest done? Or, are these the two most important ones? Or, do we only have a partial list and the rest of the information is forthcoming?

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The page the Member has just mentioned indicates new initiatives the department is working on for the upcoming year. There are some pages on the objectives of the department for the coming year as well. But these two are the only initiatives the department plans to undertake for this fiscal year.

Thank you. Mr. Ballantyne.

There seems to be a number of other definitive objectives which are also supposed to take place during the course of the year. Some of them will take a bit of work in order to carry them out. For example, you are going to implement a management strategy for the Ingraham Trail. We wanted an idea of how you intended to complete these. All of these definitive objectives, theoretically, should be realizable during the year. What was the process that made you choose just these two and what does that mean? These two are going to be done by March 1995, but what happens to the rest of them on your list?

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't get the full gist of the question. The objectives listed in the main estimates are what the department feels they are able to undertake for the year, or at least start. The only page the Member has in front of him are the two new initiatives the department plans to undertake. Maybe I could get a clarification on his question.

Please clarify your question.

Then I will get a clarification of the answer. The question I thought was quite clear. The department has put forward 27 definitive objectives for the year. The Standing Committee on Finance thought that this department, along with all of the other departments, are putting forward a number of areas they wanted major work done on during the year and we wanted to get an idea on how they intended to do that. The reason we had asked for something more detailed was to go through your major objectives with resources that will be necessary to complete them, the time frames and some basic ideas of how you intend to complete

them. Under municipal operations and assessment it says, "To develop incentives that will support municipal governments' efforts to hire staff with appropriate qualifications." I have no idea what that means. We had hoped that we would get more detailed clarification of each one of these objectives. Even in the two we have, there isn't much detail. So we are not further ahead in getting a better idea of what you want to achieve.

There are two ways to do it. We could go through each one in detail and have you respond. But we thought it would save us all time and effort just to have it written down so we could ask questions about the ones that weren't clear. That was what I was asking. Your answer confuses me a bit more. Are these two initiatives new since you were before the Standing Committee on Finance? Have you added two new initiatives to this list?

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Okay. I misunderstood the question. I think for a detailed response to the question on definitive objectives, I will ask the deputy minister to answer.

Mr. Menard, please tell us a bit more about what is not on the paper.

Mr. Chairman, I think we were advised by the Minister of Finance to prepare a list of what some of the major objectives were in our department and respond to those. On the list for our department, we noticed there was only two and those are the two that are in front of the Member now. They were considered new objectives, I guess. All of the rest of the objectives we have undertaken according to our normal work plans during the year and wherever they are found is where we get the money to do it. It is a normal function of the department to do those types of things and we assign the work by priority. It is nothing new.

The two that were identified as new ones, which they aren't, are still done under our work plan. That was to implement and evaluate the first year delivery of programs under the municipal capital assistance policy. We do that anyway because we review it every year. We have new policies in place and we will review that with our existing staff in community works and capital planning.

The development of a financial assistance policy of hamlet and charter communities taxation authority we are doing as well through our normal work plan through municipal operations and assessment. So we weren't aware that we had to explain each departmental objective in this exercise.

I would like to remind witnesses and Members to talk at a speed our interpreters can handle. Mr. Patterson.

Point Of Order

Is it not customary to have the Minister's opening remarks circulated to the committee? If so, could I ask the chair's encouragement of that practice with this Minister? Thank you.

I don't believe it is automatic, but by request I think Ministers have always made them available. Mr. Arngna'naaq, do you have copies of your opening remarks available so Members could have it?

I don't know where there are copies, if there are any, but certainly the comments are available for Members.

So we can make arrangements to have copies available for Members?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the Standing Committee on Finance document, page 22 through 29, there were departments inside the department titles that were new initiatives and initiatives currently under way. Departments priorized the new initiatives and were asked to respond on whether they were included in their present targets they were asking for or if they would be required to ask for additional funds to complete the initiative. That is the document Members will receive tomorrow morning, compiling all departments, and will contain that information. If you go back to recommendation 2, it talks about a priorized list of planned initiatives. So we were working on the new initiatives for each department for this fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. That is useful. We are still on general comments. Do you want to carry on, Mr. Ballantyne?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The explanation given by the Minister of Finance becomes one of a certain amount of subjectivity. Some of these objectives I thought were somewhat complex and may cause some difficulty for the department. If what the Minister of Finance and MACA are saying is that none of these objectives should cause you any problems, then I will be satisfied with that. I will expect to see a successful resolution of all of these issues by the end of the year.

But, one that I will ask, if I could, Mr. Chairman, specifically, one that is -- as the deputy minister knows and as the Minister is probably becoming aware -- quite complex, is the management strategy for the Ingraham Trail area. There are a lot of conflicting uses on the Ingraham Trail. There is mining. There are the objectives of the Yellowknife Dene Band. They are talking about increasing the size of their area and they will be involved in treaty discussions and negotiations over the next few years. There is the desire of many of the cottage owners to own their own cottages. There has been a long-standing objective of the department to come up with some kind of a management plan of the area, because, from time to time, as the deputy minister remembers, these conflicting uses give us a lot of problems. So, this is quite definitive here as your objective is to implement the management strategy. I would be very supportive of you doing that, but I just wonder, though, how the Minister intends to proceed, then, in implementing this management strategy for the Ingraham Trail area.

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Menard to respond to that.

Mr. Menard.

Does that answer your question, Mr. Ballantyne? Mr. Ballantyne.

Yes, that answers part of the question, and I am aware of the difficulty. I just have a comment that on the Ingraham Trail, even though there are a lot of different users and there is a lot of different potential for that land, I think there is some possibility right now, if the department tried to bring everyone together again, for some trade-offs there. I know the Yellowknives Dene Band have some aspirations and I think some of those aspirations could be met without a tremendous amount of difficulty. I think that it is a matter that the city also has some longer term plans, the cottage owners want to get ownership, and in just talking to different parties, I get a sense that if somebody was willing to get in there and broach some arrangements, I think there is some possibility there. What I have heard from each individual group is a certain willingness to sit down and see if they can sort out some compromises on the trail. So, I wonder if I could ask the Minister if he and the department are prepared to continue to try to facilitate some compromise solutions as to the management of the Ingraham Trail?

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, yes, if we are able to get together and do something positive, yes.

I think he is offering to try to assist. Thanks very much, Mr. Ballantyne. Now, this is my list, so if there is anyone who hasn't put their hand up, then I'd like to know about it. After Mr. Ballantyne, Mr. Ningark, then Mr. Zoe, then Mr. Pudlat. Is there anybody else who wanted to jump in? Mr. Antoine. The next person is Mr. Ningark.

Qujannamiik. (Translation) Mr. Chairman, recently the MLA for Aivilik, James Arvaluk, said that some of the vehicles are used for paving or smoothing out the roads. Some of the equipment is easily breakable because, of course, the material on the equipment is not as sturdy as the material it encounters. Particularly, when they are working on paving the roads and maintaining the airstrips, they wear out and they tend to break down after a while. So, my question to the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman, is, on the vehicles and maintenance machinery that the municipal corporations own and receive from the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, how long is the shelf life? How long is the useful life of these vehicles supposed to be? I am sure this varies with the different types of machinery, meaning water trucks, sewage trucks and different kinds of maintenance vehicles that get replaced. How often are they replaced? How many years is the useful life for our dump trucks and sewage trucks and other maintenance types of vehicles? They probably get replaced after "X" number of years. Can you provide how long the life is, for these vehicles? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

(Translation) Through a set of standard criteria, details are provided within those documents that relate to the length of time the vehicles should operate. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Ningark.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also, if a municipal corporation obtains used vehicles, perhaps purchased at lower rates in order to save spending, that might be used for maintenance on airports or roads or when developing lands for building residential areas. But because, many times these vehicles break down at a faster rate resulting in stoppage of work, or, if a water truck breaks down or leaks occur, different maintenance problems occur, when these vehicles stop operating properly, I imagine that it ends up costing the government a lot of money to maintain these older vehicles. I realize fiscal restraint is the direction but it is difficult for the municipal corporations to receive parts for broken down vehicles. The service centres are a far distance from these communities, and, if you end up getting the wrong parts, there is another delay in ordering those parts over again. So, my question to the Minister is, are you still providing used or second-hand vehicles to municipal corporations? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

(Translation) I forgot to indicate in my earlier response concerning the criteria that I am able to get on this information. I can make the standards and criteria available to the Member. Sometimes, the smaller communities receive new vehicles called retrofits. I am not sure if all of the communities receive second-hand or retrofitted vehicles. Perhaps we can find out that information. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think Al Menard has been in the system long enough to know what the policies are. He has been around since the day I started working for the hamlet at the municipal level. This is where I had my first crack at training on the job for this job here. I would like to ask the Minister a question. In turn, perhaps, he can assign his

deputy minister to answer my question. Is there a policy whereby a municipal corporation needs the equipment and that government, in turn, will give a second-hand used car or truck, as the case may be? I know that was the case many years ago when I worked for the hamlet council. That is not always a good practice to get a second-hand used car for a municipal community because of the extreme conditions in our community. There is a time factor between the community and the supplier, so it is not always the cheapest way to deal in business. Is that still practised by the system? Thank you.

All right. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Menard to respond to that.

Mr. Menard.

Mr. Chairman, the department does not have a policy to give used equipment to the communities. Most of the time, it is new equipment that is given to the communities. However, we do take advantage of opportunities. For example, recently, there was an opportunity to redirect some equipment from the DEW Line sites and, through DPW, they were inspected and we were advised that there would be some life left in the equipment from the DEW lines. It was assigned to various communities across the North, some of this used equipment. Another thing we might do is take the opportunities of retrofitting existing equipment from one community and sending it to another community, so we do some exchange. Very seldom, we will just take a broken down, used one and send it to a community. It is mostly all new equipment that goes into communities.

Thank you, Mr. Menard. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Many years ago, when I was a senior administrative officer for the hamlet of Pelly Bay, we requested a sewage truck for the community. It was under difficult circumstances because Pelly Bay is served by air only. Time went by and we got a sewage truck from Cambridge Bay. That machine did not last very long and it was very costly for the community. The deputy minister says that they are instructed by a person who works for DPW, but I am wondering if all the used equipment that is given to the communities is, in fact, in very good working condition. I don't have faith in the system whereby, when a community is so far away from the supplier, then the possibility of that equipment breaking down before the next fiscal year is very good. I hope the Minister and deputy minister will make a note of my concern. Thank you.

It is a comment, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Because I'm sitting here, I have to remind myself and the Members that we are in fact reviewing the O and M estimates. We are not reviewing the capital estimates. I spoke to that earlier, myself, when I spoke about equipment. So, I have to remind myself and other Members of committee of the whole. Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Zoe seems to have...

Mr. Zoe, go ahead.

Mr. Zoe, you should allow the Minister to be able to respond to some of the concerns that you have raised. I think you have raised a number of concerns already. You have covered a number of areas. Perhaps, if you have any questions, try to make your questions as short as possible, perhaps one or two at a time. Perhaps, now the Minister will respond to the issues that Mr. Zoe has brought before this committee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't realize that Mr. Zoe was going to ask all of these questions all at once. I wasn't taking notes from the beginning. For many of these, I think they are work that the department is doing. I would have to defer to the deputy minister, Mr. Menard.

Mr. Menard, you have the blessing of your Minister. Go ahead.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to remember them in the order that the Member presented them. As far as the taxation, first of all, I must say that the mandate for taxation is not our department. We only have the mandate for assessment. However, we are close to the communities and we always try to bring their concerns up to the proper authorities. I presently sit on the deputy ministers' committee with the deputy ministers of Finance and Education, Culture and Employment to review all of the concerns that the Member brought forward about the taxation and the taxation issue. Also, it will come up as an issue in the review of the Education Act as well. We are providing advice to that committee from our department, and we are well-aware of the concerns. I think we are representing them well to the committee.

With regard to the issue of fire training, again, it is a very delicate and important issue, we find. We have been working closely with the communities. We know that the program is underfunded. However, the training responsibility is the fire marshal's. I think there is a report that has been finished, a joint report done by the fire marshal's office to review the whole training at the community level. What we try to do, from a department's point of view, for ease at the community level, when we provide equipment, we make sure that all the equipment is provided to go along with the fire halls or fire trucks. We try to encourage the communities to get their fire brigades up to speed and the fire marshals provide training in the community level. As well, we encourage the communities to get training outside of the community in the regional setting where we provide the money to the community to send their people to get trained in the regional setting or wherever. The fire marshal does training as well. We know we cannot address everything in that area with the formula funding because there is not enough money. We have no more money, so we have to come up with a new strategy. We are working with the new strategy. We are trying to work at the community level, but we have no expertise for fire training within our department.

Thank you. Not to lose those people who want to speak, I have Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Antoine and Mr. Lewis. Mr. Zoe, you have the floor.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

I believe the deputy minister responded to that by saying that the report is in the fire marshal's office and it is in draft form at this time.

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister, I believe there were a couple of questions that the honourable Member posed to the witness table. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can understand where the Member is coming from on the issue of fire protection training. In some of the communities that I represent, this has also been a concern. There is a need for training in the communities but I also understand that there is some training that goes on through the fire marshal's office in the communities. In fact, to some degree, the comments I've heard from the communities that I've been to is that the fire marshal goes a little too far sometimes. They are trying to close down buildings that are required in the community.

As far as funding is concerned, I tried to indicate earlier this afternoon that the funding that the municipalities receive is unconditional. It is up to the community and the priorities they have to highlight priority areas where they want to spend funds. As far as funding fire chiefs to become half-time or full-time positions, I think that is up to the community itself to decide that is enough of a priority to fund the program.

Mr. Deputy Minister, go ahead.

I'm not aware of the full details of that consultation, myself. I would have to refresh my memory because it was quite a while ago. I just know they're working on something. I'm not sure about the details.

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions to the Minister of MACA. Were the vehicles you purchased from the DEW Lines purchased at the original price for the communities? Were they given to you for free or did you have to pay for the vehicles obtained by your department? This is my first question. Thank you.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. Mr. Minister.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The question he raises is valid. From what I understand, the vehicles given to the department had to be paid for. We had to pay for the transportation from the DEW Line to the community, but they were given to the communities for free.

(Translation) Thank you. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you for responding to my question. This is not really a question, but more a comment to MACA. We are all aware we are going through fiscal restraint and it is getting harder to get funding. The hamlet councils in small communities are going through financial difficulties. This was the case with my constituents in 1993 and the beginning of 1994. I believe all of the smaller communities are going through that problem. But one of my constituents has been keeping me up to date with what is going on with the communities I represent. We are all aware that we are going through fiscal restraint as are employees in hamlet councils, especially those who started from 1983 on. Even though they are not losing their jobs, I think you are aware there are problems. Is it because there have been cuts from the federal government? What is the reason for the cutbacks, especially in Baffin South? We would appreciate more information as to why this is. In the 1993-94 fiscal year, the funding they get is less and less. When that is the case, the programs and services provided to the community... Where does this originate from? Is it from the federal government? I would like a response to this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(Translation) Thank you. Mr. Minister, you can respond.

(Translation) I will let my deputy minister respond to the question.

(Microphone turned off)...hockey player, Mr. Al Menard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me tell the Member we have been working with two of his communities in the last year, through the superintendents office, to try to do some debt recovery plans. I am advised that for Sanikiluaq and Lake Harbour the debt recovery is coming along very well and the communities should be back in the black come April 1.

There has been no cut from the department for the unconditional funding communities get. The funding they get is the same every year. We add on any forced growth items that come along through the capital plan and any inflationary increases that we get from the government. The money is in a pot and is distributed to the communities through a formula. The communities always get the same level from year to year.

So we think the formula is fair and equitable. The communities across the north get a fair share of the pot. Funding levels are good to allow the communities to meet some of their priorities in the municipal affairs areas. The formula does not address all the new initiatives that communities may want to take by other departments or other areas.

Thank you. I have Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just one general area that I have a problem with in this Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. It is in the area of assistance to the small communities that are administered by the band councils rather than a municipal council. I have four of them in my constituency. Since day one of my involvement here, I have been trying to get something done here, and I was told last year that there was something in the works in the form of a small settlements' assistance program that is being formulated by a department. When I heard that, I was quite optimistic about it, but this hasn't come about yet.

One of the problems that small communities face is the lack of funding in the communities. Each band council receives funding, because of their size per capita, from the federal government. These small settlements that don't have very much assistance from the Government of the Northwest Territories use this band council money to administer the settlements. Whenever they are short, they ask the department for assistance. The band council money is used to run their settlements.

The deputy minister just made reference to a formula that is kept at a same level with a fair and equitable share of money. I don't believe that. I think these small communities have been short-changed for as many years as this government has been in place. That is the kind of treatment that small communities have been getting.

I know that the Premier has been making jokes, saying that the Deh Cho want to become separatist. Perhaps that is one of the reasons they want to do that. This government isn't sharing the money that is supposed to be shared fairly and equitably throughout the north to run their communities the way they should. There is a feeling in the communities in terms of government assistance. We hear how much assistance other communities are getting -- the hamlets and all over the place in the north and in the Arctic -- how much money each municipal government gets. If you divide the amount that these communities get per capita and you compare it to how much money has been spent in the communities I represent, you are going to see that it is not fair and equitable. If you go back to the time this government started until today, you are going to find that we have been short-changed. Some of the MLAs have been going into my communities and they have seen the problems that people exist in. That doesn't exist in any other place. That is all because of lack of money.

In terms of community development, I have been pushing community development for such a long time that I keep repeating myself, but one of the motions that the Standing Committee on Finance made this time around -- and there were other motions in this House in the past year -- deals with community development and this is to help these communities get stronger so they function like a good community so they have the financial and manpower resources developed so they can turn into strong communities. The only way the north is going to get strong is when each community is strong. The point I am making is that you have to start at the community level, the small communities as well. I fully support the motion that the Standing Committee on Finance made on community development.

These are the two areas that I have great concerns with this department. Other areas, there have been some changes made in my constituency with regard to this department. I think it will be positive in the long run. The people who work in the department in the region feel they need more assistance. They work with the communities quite closely. The problem is with the department's policy on assisting the small communities with more funding so they could administer their communities properly. Instead of using band council money to subsidize the administration of the communities, this government should be providing them with the full range of service they offer other communities. With that, I have one question I would like to ask the Minister. What is the status of this small settlements' assistance program that was in the works over the last year? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that the concern that the Member is raising is a good concern. I don't know if it is an inequity, but attention not being paid to the smaller communities, and I don't know what has created that to date, it is a point that has been taken well by the department. I would like to assure the Member that I have been asking the department where this has been, to find out whether this will be accessible to the communities or settlements by April 1. I think the department has been working hard on that particular policy.

The other area the Member has raised is also to do with community development which, again, has been done to some degree, as far as the staff are concerned on an ad hoc basis for councils. I think the department is working on creating a training program or some form of training for counsellors. For details on these, I would have to ask Mr. Menard to respond.

Thank you. Mr. Menard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On community development, in the past years, our approach being recognizing communities, it was basically left to the initiative of the community to come to us and ask for assistance. A few years back, when we tried to approach communities of the band nature, they said that they wanted to deal with the federal government instead of our government, so we backed off a little bit and we didn't push our services too much. Since the Member has been bringing it up to us for two years in a row, that he is unhappy with our support to communities, we have rejuvenated this emphasis. We are now approaching communities and asking them to identify some of their training needs and helping them out in identifying them as well. I think we are making good progress. We are doing that in a couple of ways. We did change some staff around. That should help a great deal. We are also developing these policies, which we have already used as a guideline to do capital planning last

year. We are using it this year, as well, and we are hopeful, according to our timetable that we should have these policies in front of Cabinet before the first of April. Hopefully, we can use them for distributing the money we have to the small communities by April 1.

To correct something, when I was talking a while ago on fair equity of dispositions, I was only talking about hamlets and up. I was not talking about the smaller communities.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. As a result of some of the comments I have heard, I want to make a comment. Part of my constituency is the Deh Cho Tribal Council area. Recently, they have been going into the communities and helping the smaller communities with training, with their own money, in the area of administration, with computers, financial management and so forth. This was at the request of the chiefs and council of each community to try to help the communities. I started asking the government about this over two years ago and nothing seems to be happening. So, they are finding money on their own to do this. I think there is a good opportunity here for this department to sit down and work with the tribal council to see how they could work together. Instead of duplicating the same type of service, they should coordinate and help each other out in this area. This is just a suggestion. Perhaps I could further suggest that this department's personnel in the region approach the tribal councils and see what areas they can coordinate and work with each other in to help the communities.

My main concern here is to help the communities and to strengthen the communities in the administrative area. I would like to see strong communities in the area I represent. That's the direction we're going. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. There was a suggestion from the honourable Member to the Minister. You could perhaps make a response, if you wanted to, Mr. Minister.

I'm not certain how tribal councils work but I'm assuming I understand where the Member is coming from. The manner in which the tribal councils administer themselves is likely different from the way the government administers itself. I understand that the superintendent of the area has had preliminary meetings with the tribal council and I hope that some form of agreement will be developed from those meetings.

Thank you. Next on my list, I have Mr. Lewis, for Yellowknife Centre. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any broad, general comments but I'm interested in the community transfer initiative. I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about it. How exactly is the department involved in it? We're told that everything is on the table. Was the department a key player in developing the policy? The third thing is, what are prone to be the barriers, to date? I don't want to be negative, but I would like to know what the obstacles are. It seems to me that some progress has been made but it would be good for us to know some of the obstacles that have been encountered. We were given notice of a few today, including vacation travel assistance, benefits and things of that nature. Those are my three questions. I would be happy just to leave it at that.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not totally up to date on what has been going on as far as the community transfer initiative is concerned. I think the lead department has been Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs. I believe the department is involved now with some of the agreements. I would again have to defer to Mr. Menard on the details. Thank you.

I recognize that there is a lead Minister with a coordinating responsibility. But, I've also worked in government for a long, long time and happen to know that departments have very clear mandates. It is clear, if you read the departmental overview, that the Minister and the department are responsible for community governments. That's what they do. So, they have to be responsible and responsive to residents. In fact, if you read the whole departmental overview, it talks about building on its long-standing partnership with community governments and councils. That's what you deal with, local governments.

What I wanted to know is to what degree -- since this is the department that deals with local issues and local governments and what they do -- of involvement is there, really? Although I recognize the need for overall coordination of anything -- with almost everything you do, you have to have someone pulling it all together -- I would like to know exactly what the experience is with MACA in the community transfer initiative program. It touches very closely the mandate of what that department does. I wanted to get some idea of what they've noted as being difficulties because whatever problems there are, this department has to deal with it. Whatever isn't working or what they see as not working that well from their point of view, they have to have an understanding of.

Are you involved in trying to resolve any difficulties that may exist in any of the transfer initiatives that communities would like to undertake? Maybe I'll just leave it at that. If the Minister is not that involved and he doesn't know, then I just won't pursue it any further.

Mr. Chairman, I have not been involved in the development of the community transfer initiatives but Mr. Menard certainly has been involved in the formation of some of these agreements. I'm not able to give any details on them but Mr. Menard would be able to, if that is what the Member would like to hear.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department has been involved, right from day one, in community transfer initiatives. In fact, we were the department that initiated the whole process back in the 1970s when we called it prime public authority. There is a long history to it and it had a lot of growing pains as it went along. Because we were unsuccessful as a department in our quest in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was felt that it would be better if it were coordinated through a central or another department. All along, we've been very supportive and involved in the process.

But, we have two roles to play. We have one role where we advise the government about things that may work or may not work at the community level in community transfers. We also have a role to advise the community as well. We've been playing that role all along. From what I know from the regional level, most community meetings are attended by our superintendents. I've attended some meetings with some communities where we give advice on how best to do things and how to deal with transitional issues. There are still a lot of issues unresolved, but we're involved with all the issues in trying to help the community transfer committee a working group to try to resolve some of those. In fact, yesterday, I was meeting with the mayor and the groups in Inuvik, trying to make some suggestions on how best to structure themselves to receive some of the programs, so we are involved.

I promised I would have no more questions. I would like to congratulate the deputy minister on a very clear answer.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was making general comments earlier, but, from my general comments, I would like to ask a couple of questions. One is in the definitive objectives, pages 13-6 and 13-7, with regard to community planning and lands. First of all, in community planning, I wanted to have a clarification from the fourth-last line, "to conduct three regional training sessions and planning administration for community councils and staff in the Baffin, Keewatin and Inuvik regions." However, I did not see in the Five Year Capital Forecast that there have been letters coming in and some recommendations. In fact, I got a letter from the mayor of Repulse Bay desiring them to develop a road or access road to the North Pole River to develop a gravel site with dual purposes, that is recreation, because it is a spot where the community uses it for spring-time fishing and it is also a traditional camp. It has become inaccessible during the break-up. It will have multiple purposes, but mostly for an access road for gravel, because we experienced a very bad effect on the marine wildlife when the blasting was taking place to crush the rock, et cetera. Secondly, the dump truck they had became unusable during last summer or fall because it is not designed to carry the boulders, et cetera. It was only to be used for sand. Is this a definitive objective on the fourth-last line that will make this kind of provision available for the five year capital forecast plan? I don't see any kind of financial indication as to what year this would be developed. Would there be a plan to develop it? Thank you.