Department Of Education, Culture And Employment
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
In the Legislative Assembly on March 15th, 1994. See this topic in context.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
March 14th, 1994
Page 602
Some Hon. Members
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. We are on page 18-13 of the 1994-95 main estimates. Mr. Minister for Education, would you like to bring in the witnesses?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, yes, if I could have the approval of the House, I would like to bring in witnesses, please.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Do we have the agreement of the committee that the Minister bring in his witnesses after the break?
---Laughter
Thank you. Ten minutes.
---SHORT RECESS
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
The committee will now come to order. For the record, Mr. Minister, would you introduce the witnesses, please?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Madam Speaker. On my left is the deputy minister, Mr. Hal Gerein, and on my right is the man responsible for managing our finances of the department, Mr. Paul Devitt.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Since we have a number of items under Bill 1, I would like to remind Members when you ask questions, try to be as concise and as brief as possible and that the Minister, when he responds to the questions, should try to be as brief as possible. But, I'm not taking away the privilege of the Members to speak in committee of the whole.
Culture And Careers
We're on page 18-13, culture and careers. Total O and M, $64,434. Mr. Antoine.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to ask the Minister, where is the program called the western leadership program in Fort Smith? Is it under this activity?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
It is under the educational branch.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Does that answer your question, Mr. Antoine? Okay. Total O and M, $64,434.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Educational Development
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Page 18-14, educational development, total O and M, $144,548. Mr. Antoine.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance, I would like to make some comments about video production, an item which is contained under the educational development activity. The Standing Committee on Finance has an ongoing concern regarding video productions within the government. In its report, in the 1994/95 Main Estimates, the standing committee asked for a briefing to justify continuation of in-house video production. The Departments of Education, Culture and Employment and Renewable Resources provided that briefing to the Standing Committee on Finance on February 23, 1994. On behalf of the standing committee, I would like to thank those departments for presenting that information to us as requested.
The Department of Education suggested, in its presentation, that current levels of in-house video production be frozen with the future needs of the government being met by private sector productions. The standing committee agrees that this would be a reasonable first step and we encourage the department to follow through on that suggestion. Further, the committee suggested that the department take steps to actively stimulate private sector participation in meeting all of the video production needs of government departments.
In the presentation, the department said that most of the costs of the in-house video production go towards producing The Tube, a half-hour youth-oriented information show seen weekly on Television Northern Canada. The department provided the standing committee with estimates suggesting that producing this show privately would double the costs. However, the standing committee wants further information to substantiate that claim. The standing committee would like the department to provide further information about the detailed costs of producing The Tube. Specifically, committee Members want more detailed financial information which includes all the costs that would allow a direct comparison of private and public sector costs. As well, the standing committee suggested that the department contract the production of two episodes of The Tube to the private sector as a test case.
The standing committee Members feel that the public tendering process will provide a better estimate of the true cost of producing the show privately. With this information, the standing committee and the department are much more likely to make recommendations and decisions that will ensure the most effective use of the resources available to the government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Culture And Careers
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you, Mr. Antoine. I have to go back to page 18-13, Culture and Careers. I called $64,434. Actually, it is $64.434 million. Agreed?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
I had to correct myself. The next page, 18-14, total O & M is actually $144.548 million. Agreed?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Koe.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Before we agree, under which activity is the Science Institute?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. Culture and Careers.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 603
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Koe.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
I ask the committee's concurrence to go back to Culture and Careers. I have a few questions on the Science Institute. I didn't notice it in the narrative, so that is why I ask the question.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Go back to Culture and Careers. Mr. Koe.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As of this date, what is the status of the amalgamation with the Science Institute into Arctic College?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Before I ask the Minister, do we have the agreement of the committee of the whole that we go back to page 18-13, culture and careers?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Yes, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure by what he means by status. If he could perhaps clarify that for me.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Koe.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you. Several weeks ago, I asked a question about what was happening with the amalgamation between Science Institute and Arctic College. Today, I would like to know what is happening and where we are with that process.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Cabinet decision that had been made would result in the establishment of a Science Institute within each college, one in Nunavut and one in the west, establish a head office with the eastern institute in Iqaluit and the western institute in Inuvik, provide for the creation of a science council reporting to each college board of governors. We intend to rescind the Science Institute Act and replace the responsibility for science and technology functions within the Public Colleges Act. That decision regarding amalgamation obviously differs from the proposal made by the two institutions only in that it places the western institute head office in Inuvik rather than Fort Smith, as proposed by the boards. The board's estimate for the additional cost, for instance, is $125,000 per year that will be required for administrative support for the Inuvik office. The amalgamation of the colleges and the Science Institute is expected to occur by July 1, 1994, depending of course on the whole matter of whether we get the approval for the Public Colleges Act amendments.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Member for Inuvik.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you for that information. When are you proposing to introduce the amendments for the Public Colleges Act?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
The Chair John Ningark
The honourable Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
We are hoping within the next week to ten days or hopefully prior to the conclusion of this session.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Member for Inuvik.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
What time frame are you looking at with regard to setting up headquarters of the Science Institute in Inuvik?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
The Chair John Ningark
The honourable Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Even though I use the word "head offices", I would not want the honourable Members to get the impression that, somehow, there is a new headquarters being established. The fact is that we are moving to establish them within the Arctic College system. As such, we want to ensure that they work through the Arctic College system and the board of governors in terms of the decision-making processes. In that sense, I don't want to give the impression that, somehow, there is a separate all-creating entity. However, we are moving to ensure that the so-called head offices or the institute head offices are established and occur by July 1, 1994. That all will be part of the whole matter of the establishment of the Nunavut Arctic College and the western Arctic College.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. I figured it was a branch you were referring to. Mr. Koe.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Fred Koe Inuvik
When is the earliest we would be made aware of the number of people involved and the types of offices or accommodations that any staff will require?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. We expect a detailed plan within the next month or so from the existing Science Institute board.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Culture and careers. Mr. Antoine, to the same page.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
I made a statement on behalf of the Standing Committee on Finance with regard to in-house video production on page 18-14. I just wanted to know if the Minister wanted to make a comment on the statement from the Standing Committee on Finance?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Honourable Minister, would you like to respond to the statement made by the Finance committee?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any major statements to make except to suggest that the position taken by the standing committee is a reasonable one and we will try to work with the advice and the recommendation that have been given to us.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 604
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Culture and careers. Mr. Gargan.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, I just have one concern and it is with regard to continuing education in Fort Providence. I don't see it in the five year capital plan but we have a situation of overcrowding in adult education. I think they have about six computers and all the necessary gadgets for that but we don't have enough plug ins and the adult class, itself, is way overcrowded. I just wanted to express my concern. I've done some presentations there and I don't know how the students
can cope with that type of situation. I just wanted to express my concern and request the Minister to look into it.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. I believe the honourable Member is seeking some response from the Minister. The honourable Minister.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We'll look into the matter and report back to the honourable Member at the earliest opportunity.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Culture and careers, total O and M, $64.434 million.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Educational Development
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 605
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Educational development, total O and M, $144.548 million. Mr. Gargan.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the Minister that the school in Kakisa has been operating now for several years and the community is concerned that eventually because of the population base, the school might close. I want to say that there have been concerns expressed and if there are any plans for the school, I would appreciate the community being consulted before any decisions are made.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. I believe that was just a point you wanted to make? Thank you. Educational development. I have Mr. Antoine and Mr. Gargan, you are not finished yet? I have Mr. Gargan and Mr. Antoine. Mr. Gargan.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Also, Mr. Chairman, the Minister, Don Morin, made a statement with regard to telephone services and he referred specifically to the new communication systems for the schools. He said that all Northwest Territories schools would be able to use computers to send messages to each other. I would like to ask about the status of that.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are working on a system in the Baffin. It is already set up and we're working to set it up in every other region in every school throughout the Northwest Territories.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
(Microphone turned off)
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Gargan, would you try again? I didn't hear anything. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
I'm asking if this communication system would only be established in communities where there is a communication link?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, at the present time.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Antoine.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Personally, I think the leadership program that has been going on in Fort Smith for a number of years now is a good program. We need something like that to try to get the students who are interested in achieving high standards involved. The communities are also striving for that. I think this type of leadership program is good and it is available right now. I know that last year we talked about it and the year before that. There seems to be a move by the department to try to eliminate the program.
Personally, I think this government and the Legislative Assembly, should commit ourselves to a long-term commitment to that program. I understand it is very successful. There are more positive than negative things with it. I'm told that there is a possibility that the federal government might donate about $30,000 to $35,000 to the program. As well, there is a foundation that might donate a substantial amount of money to sponsor this program as well. With outside money coming in, I think this department and this government should commit itself to a long-term plan to support this program rather than doing away with it.
I know some students who are in the program and they really enjoy it. They get a lot out of it and there are other students who want to be in it. However, at the present time, no new students are being taken in. Only the students who are already in the program will be there until they are finished their schooling and then this program seems to be winding down. It seems to be a very successful program and we should support success like that. We are striving for excellence and we passed a motion on that in the House. This is one way of showing that we support excellence.
I would just like to ask the Minister, there was a review done recently, last year perhaps, and I would like the review to be made available to Members of this Legislative Assembly so that we can see for ourselves how the program has done and make a decision based on that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95Committee Report 2-12(5): Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have not had an opportunity to take the report to the Cabinet. I think it is incumbent upon the Cabinet to have a say in the final decision about which direction we take with that program or any additional programs that might be considered. I would remind Members that when we make a decision of this particular type, there has to be a certain amount of fairness in terms of how we deal with other potential programs. With great respect, we have not yet dealt with the whole matter of how we're going to support a program of this kind for the Inuit communities. You can't make a decision in isolation on that.
I agree with the Members when they talk about supporting excellence in programs, but the fact is, the present criteria doesn't require students to have excellence in terms of their marks for entering the program. If that is what you want, then we have to establish the criteria so that an excellence program is there for those students who want to fit into that program and can access that program. Right now and previously, in my view at least, the selection was more political than actual criteria-based. I want to get out of that business. I support the comment that has been made by the honourable Member, that people who qualify for the program should have earned their way there. I would like the whole matter to be reviewed by Cabinet. I don't intend to make any decisions in isolation of my Cabinet colleagues and once I know what direction they want me to take, then obviously, I'll be prepared to be more specific about the direction. That is the issue that has to be addressed in making final decisions about the program.
The other thing is, the present dollars which have been allocated are only enough to carry the students who are presently in it. If we're to add more, it would mean that we would need more resources for that program. You have to consider that as well. That is all part of the decision that has to be made in the end by our Cabinet.
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Thank you. Educational development. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to add to my comments on the leadership school in Fort Smith. The present position of this government of not taking on any more new students creates a feeling of uncertainty from year to year. It affects everybody, especially the students and the parents. It creates doubt among the politicians in this government. There is an uncertainty that is sitting over all of us here. I don't like to be involved in a decision that creates doubt and uncertainty in the communities where a program is successful and there is hesitancy to have a long-term commitment to continue that success.
I just wanted to urge the department and the Minister to provide that report to the Cabinet and make a recommendation that there is a long-term commitment to support this program. That is my suggestion, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't want people to get an idea that somehow this is something new. The costs that we are talking about are primarily for the residence itself and the students living in the residence. It is not a new program. It is all tied to the existing educational programming that is offered in our high school. The fact is, if our students are being more successful because of the program being offered, then maybe, as a result, we have to review what is being offered in our other high schools to make certain that other students get the same kind of programming.
That is a point that was made by the standing committee, that we have to improve the quality of educational programming. Maybe it is something we have to learn from and support in other communities as well.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Educational development. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Minister, in responding to Mr. Dent's question regarding the reduction in their budget, said that the Arctic College had a $4 million surplus and even if they took that back, they would still have an adjustment of about a $3 million surplus. I would like to ask the Minister, if the leadership program is based on political decisions, what is the Minister's feeling with regard to allowing the Arctic College to develop that program, seeing as they do have surplus money to do it? Arctic College is just not in the western college, it is in both east and west and all the regions are involved in it. Would it be possible for the program to continue, maybe not as a ministerial initiative but Arctic College-driven?
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. We could always examine that option. However, Arctic College is generally responsible for post-secondary or adult programming. So, in that sense, it is different. The students we are referring to here are generally high school students from grade ten to grade 12. I think there are two different programs that maybe the honourable Member is considering.
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The Chair John Ningark
The honourable Member for Deh Cho.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Maybe, instead of calling it the northern leadership training program, we could look at calling it political science or something. Then it would fit into the programs.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. I don't think that was a question, just a suggestion by the honourable Member. Would you like to respond to that?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, the northern leaders program was a program that used to exist in the department. That program is no longer in existence. We've re-profiled those dollars into the student financial assistance program. The program that the honourable Member for Nahendeh was talking about was the western Arctic leadership program that is located in Fort Smith, the residence. They are two different programs. One is for high school and the other one used to be allocated to post-secondary programming.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. To educational development, Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, I was referring to the leadership program, whether the title has changed or not. What I'm suggesting is, rather than eliminating the program, we rename it so that it fits into Arctic College programs. The incentive should be that the grants for that program be maintained to allow the program to continue. I would hope that, rather than scrapping it, we look at fitting it in so that it is part of Arctic College.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The decision to re-profile the dollars for the northern leaders program, which was primarily a post-secondary program, was made last year. The decision to re-profile those dollars was in last year's budget. The honourable Member is raising a point
about a residence program that is in Fort Smith for high school students.
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Educational development. I have Mr. Ballantyne.
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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North
I would like to, if I could, Mr. Chairman, make some comments on the leadership program. As I understand it, the program has essentially been grandfathered so there are no new entries into the program at this point in time, but the program is carrying on, right? Okay, so we are talking about that program in Fort Smith.
If I could, just to put it into my own context, I remember I was on the Cabinet when the former Minister brought it forward, and many of us supported it. Again, I have some very strong feelings about education and I have expressed them in this House a number of times. There is no single solution to education in the Northwest Territories. There have to be a number of innovative approaches. The support for this particular program was pretty strong in the last Assembly, and I think there is still a fair amount of support for it.
It was put forward as an innovative program that tried to build on the strengths of the old residential schools but put into a more modern context. Now, I haven't seen a copy of the study, which I really look forward to seeing, but every indication to me is that there has been success with the program, but in fairness to the former Minister, he never pretended that the way it was originally developed was the way it had to end up. He said, this is an experiment, and, if it works, let's build on it.
So, I think what the Members are saying is that if there are ways to improve it, I am sure the former Minister would be the first one to agree that this is the way to go. But, I guess a lot of us see this as one element in the big picture of education that really should be considered. As the Minister said, in fact, if there is a high level of success here, perhaps components of this approach should be used somewhere else.
I join the other Members in saying that before any definitive decision is made to end this program, let's have a real good look at the results of the study and let's look at it in the context of how we can improve it as opposed to just having the option of doing away with it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair John Ningark
Educational development, total O and M, $144.548 million. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Yes, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the details of student residences, Akaitcho Hall will be closed on June 30. I am wondering if we have any other residences that will be closed at this point in time, and in what years are we anticipating the closure of those other residences?
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The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Not immediately, except the plans are that most of the major residences will be closed over the next five years, mainly because we are in the transition of moving high school programs into communities - some grade ten, some grade eleven - one year at a time, and so there is a transitional period that we have to consider.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Member for Deh Cho.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Yes, I would like to ask the Minister which residences fit under that category as Akaitcho would be. Inuvik would be another one. Which other ones are there?
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. I believe Grollier Hall, as the honourable Member has mentioned, Kivalliq Hall in Rankin Inlet and Ukiivik in Iqaluit.
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The Chair John Ningark
Educational development. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Isn't the Ukiivik in Iqaluit an Arctic College residence?
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The Chair John Ningark
Mahsi. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. I believe there are two buildings in Iqaluit that are named the same, but there is a student residence, as well.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Educational development. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
So, I asked if we reduce, in the centralized locations we are seeing an increase in residence requirements at the regional level, then. Fort Simpson has two hostels now. Are we looking at saving any money by doing that or is the cost going to be increased by virtue of moving in that direction?
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
It is certainly our intention, and presently that is the case, so far, that we are, in fact, saving money in terms of the community and local or regional residences.
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The Chair John Ningark
Educational development. Total O and M, $144.548 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Details of grants and contributions. $7.588 million. I have Mr. Koe and Mr. Gargan. Mr. Koe.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Yes, I have a few questions on grants but they tie in with contributions. They are related to the Science Institute. On page 18-16, the Science Institute gets annual core funding, but on page 18-15, the Science Institute, there is an item here of $50,000. It is for matching grants to the Science Institute. Can I get some indication of what these matching grants are or who allocates them, how and what for?
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The Chair John Ningark
Mahsi. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. This is generally determined through some criteria for innovation. It is generally
research and determined by the Science Institute as to where it is applied.
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Just some information, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not he has any policy or guideline with regard to the incentive grant.
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The Chair John Ningark
The honourable Minister for Education.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
I believe it is the incentive program. I believe we can provide you with copies of the criteria that is used for that particular program.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Grants. Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Again, to that task, has the Minister been able to review the statement that was made by Mr. Antoine with regard to that grant and why it is only targeted towards technical students, as opposed to social or other training programs?
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
We are, Mr. Chairman, continuing to reassess the student financial assistance program, but the incentive program itself is tied, was a decision that was made by Cabinet some ways before my time as Minister, to be specific on addressing the whole matter of the educational programming area. That is generally how we are following through with the program itself. I realize that our colleague from Nahendeh spoke about the incentive program and I indicated to him, as well, that maybe part of the review of the student financial assistance may address some of the concerns that the honourable Member has raised.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Grants. I have Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
One final question, Mr. Chairman, is with regard to the community broadcasting grants of $180,000. It is consistent with the previous years, but I would like to ask whether or not we have any - I guess this is just pretty well continuing support for those communities that have those. Do you have anything for new stations?
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Depending on where the new stations are or new requests are, we review them based on any decision on the actual request that was made by the community. Once we knew that, we could either instruct the community where to go or assist the community in preparing any submissions necessary.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Grants. I have Mr. Ng.
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Regarding educational development, community broadcasting grants, are these grants for start-up costs or ongoing operating costs or a combination of both?
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. It is to generally assist the operating of community broadcast regular television programming.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot.
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is that $180,000 taken up every year or is there room for new broadcasting societies that are starting up or trying to re-establish themselves? Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We could always consider or entertain the idea of new ones, except that we do have many of the grants already identified for existing radio societies. The possibility is always there for us to consider additional applications.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Details of grants and contributions. Mr. Patterson.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Referring to student financial assistance, in the review that is under way in this area, will some consideration be given to decentralizing the administration of these grants to regions? Students in the Baffin region are in school often in Ottawa or maritime provinces. There are a number of them in smaller universities like Wolfville, Nova Scotia, or Mount St. Vincent's in Nova Scotia, Trent in Ontario, et cetera. They seem to have even more difficulties with time and distance and communicating with the very hard working people in the student financial assistance office in Yellowknife. My feeling is that it might be an option to look at having this function regionalized to some extent, where, I would suspect, people in the regions would know the students, their school history and perhaps know better how to help them if they are having a personal or financial crisis. I would like to ask that general question. I think it has worked well with the moves that have been made with child care. I would like to ask if that is being considered for student financial assistance administration. Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Precisely, yes.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Patterson.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
That is the correct answer, Mr. Chairman. I am glad to hear that.
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The Chair John Ningark
On page 18-16, grants, $7.58 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Page 18-17, 18-18, and 18-19, contributions, $170.923 million. Mr. Koe.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions on some of these contributions. The first one is under northern performers, contributions to performing and show-casing northern talent. I would like to know what criteria is used and how this money is distributed.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Generally speaking, it is based on an application process. I will get a copy of the process and the criteria that is used and provide it to the honourable Member.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Koe.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Similarly, with the grants to cultural organizations, I assume there is a policy that sets out the criteria and who gets money.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. Yes, I believe that was approved some time ago, within the last six months or so.
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The Chair John Ningark
All right. Mr. Koe.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
I assume I would get a copy of that policy also. Under short-term employment program, is the criteria under STEP still similar to what it used to be when it was with Economic Development and Tourism? Are those the type of projects that qualify under this contribution program?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. Yes, except we are going to consider utilizing those resources for the investing in people initiative that we are undertaking.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, that $412,000 may be amalgamated under the new program?
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Fred Koe Inuvik
... of Alberta. There is partial funding to provide support services. In terms of where most of our students who are taking post-secondary education go, do the majority of them go to... I assume this counsellor is in Edmonton, so do the majority of our students still go to Edmonton or have they now been spread out across the country? Do you have those statistics as to which southern institutions our students are going to?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. It still has our largest population for post-secondary programming, but I would not say it is now the majority of our students. We would have to do an assessment of that, but I don't think it is the majority of our students.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
I have two more questions. Under page 18-18, there is an item called labour pools. Is this money also what might be used for your new programs or is this a separate or another make-work program for communities? I would like some idea what this contribution plot is and what it is used for.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, it is one of those other additional funding resources that we could access for the new investing in people for education and training.
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Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My last question under this category is about education development on page 18-19. There are funds for native communications. Who does this $105,000 go to and what criteria is used to allocate the money?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. I believe you are referring to native communications. Inuit Broadcasting was given $35,000; Inuvialuit Communications, $35,000; and, Native Communications Society, $35,000.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Mr. Chairman, under northern performers again, I've been watching the northern arts festival on TV. Is this the category that is under? They are holding it in Inuvik this year. Is anybody who wants to participate assisted under this program?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
This would be the program that they would apply under to get financial assistance.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Presumably then, this grant is for artists right across the Northwest Territories. Do we have enough or are we looking at situations where we have to turn down a lot in order to stay within this limit?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
We have had to turn a few away, but it hasn't been that significant. In other words, we have
been able to fund most of the major events that are occurring at which performers have been requested to attend.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
I would like to ask the Minister about educational leave and classroom assistance. I realize we don't have anything for this, but what is happening now with regard to classroom assistance as they progress and develop their skills through the years? Or is it still covered under Arctic College and the classroom assistants just maintain their salaries?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. It depends, as they progress through the program, they could qualify as teachers. In fact, some of them are participating in our community teacher education program as well so, in that sense, we do have a situation where they are progressing up the ladder.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
So that doesn't restrict the classroom assistants from progressing then. My other concern, Mr. Chairman, is with regard to school closures under education authority contributions. Last month, on February 16, a number of schools closed. A number of them closed due to different circumstances. It could have been cold temperatures or busses not running. Of course, it trickles down. It started off with the school closing in Fort Simpson and people in communities like Fort Providence asked, why are we not closed? I would like to ask, are you developing some kind of policy with regard to when schools should be closed or when they shouldn't? Or is this pretty well up to the communities?
I talked with the principal this afternoon on it and he said there should be a guideline about what constitutes school closures. If it is 35, 40 or 50 degrees below, or whatever the case might be, I would hope there would be some guidelines for schools closing. I'm sure it affects students.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. Most boards are supposed to have those policies and criteria in place because, generally speaking, they manage the schools and they're responsible for dealing with those situations.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
We don't have a consistent policy, but it is pretty well up to the boards to determine when schools should close and when not to?
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
I can't say they are the same policies. I think they are consistent, in terms of the reflection of local circumstances. For instance, we in the west don't always have the winds that the Nunavut communities experience. They have to consider that. On the other hand, there is probably the same kind of criteria established for how cold the weather gets. There is probably consistency across the board. It varies, depending on the circumstances but the boards generally develop those policies.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think we've gotten to the area I'm interested in now. I would like to ask where the obligation comes to pay the NWTTA president's salary. Is that in the collective agreement, is it an understanding that's evolved over the years or what? Thank you.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The union pays the person and we just handle what you might say is the payroll aspect of it. It is paid by the union.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association Act calls for the teachers association to have responsibility to make by-laws respecting the reprimand, suspension, expulsion, reinstatement and discipline of their members. I'm not quoting that exactly, but that's in section four which, I think, dates back to 1976. I guess I would just like to venture my opinion that the association has not demonstrated to me, in the handling of disciplinary issues that have occurred in my constituency, that they are doing a responsible job.
I have evidence, in fact, that the association executive rejected recommendations of an independent disciplinary panel of teachers that was set up under their own regulations. I suspect that the recommendations of this independent panel were rejected-- and I suspect this because the recommendations were made about the sitting member of the executive of the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association. This has been bothering me since it happened. I've been observing the association and I will simply say that I believe this whole area needs reform. In the review of the education legislation and the strategy work that is under way, will attention be paid by the Minister to this whole area of discipline and problems that arise with teachers? In other words, is the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association Act, its provisions, regulations and by-laws, also something that could be reviewed? Thank you.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That matter is going to be an issue we deal with under the Education Act review. On the matter of the NWTTA Act, that is not something we want to get into. But the matter of the
disciplinary process can be dealt with through the Education Act review. So we can deal with it in that context. We certainly invite the honourable Member to provide his advice as to how we might be able to deal with that matter. That document will be out for consultation in the very near future.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
I thank the Minister for those comments, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make some comments for the record on the issue now, since I have been invited to do so. I will participate in the review process actively as well.
Mr. Chairman, there are many very dedicated teachers. Most of them are very committed to their work. I am concerned that where there are problems -- and every profession has members that have problems -- the present arrangement which gives the association the authority to discipline its members has not been working effectively. I would like to say I believe this role and responsibility may well be incompatible with the other role that it actively pursues which is to act as the advocate for members who are being disciplined by the employer, the government. I really question how the association can discipline its own while it is often actively representing members who have disputes in the work place with the employer. That is a fundamental problem.
As a result, and I stated this in the Assembly today, we have a teacher who we are stuck with. The Iqaluit education authority doesn't want him working in the schools because he does not have the confidence of parents that he is not going to lose his temper and cause further problems in the classroom. The employer is stuck, apparently, because of the double jeopardy rule. Mr. Chairman, this is not the first time I have seen this happen. I am aware of other instances where teachers who have caused problems in the work place requiring them to be removed from the classroom, are nonetheless continuing on the government payroll because there is no effective way of dealing with the problem, at our sizable expense.
We need every teaching person year we can spare. I am getting complaints in my riding about the lack of a number of teaching services in the local schools including French, including the sciences and yet here we have a teacher who is being paid to do busy work because of our antiquated provisions in legislation on discipline and handling these situations. I want to say that whatever has to be put in place should respect the rights of the teachers and should have due process, but whatever is done, we should not continue to be stuck with these surplus people on full salary, indeterminate as far as I can see, because our legislation puts the employer in a box. I must say throughout all of this, the association has been actively representing, defending and even lionizing this particular individual as if he is some kind of a hero.
I know there are issues of student violence in the classroom that are of serious concern to teachers, but when the students are concerned about teacher violence in the classroom, the association seems to take a much different approach. It is a very defensive attitude and not one that I think reflects professional integrity. I just appreciate the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to put these comments on the record. I know there are strong opinions. I am not going to ask the Minister to respond, at this time, but I want to say that I believe these issues should be addressed. I have gone so far as to discuss the matter with the current president of the NWT Teachers' Association and he also agrees that the legislation particularly relating to teacher discipline is at least outmoded. He may not agree with my recommendations about how it should modernized. But I think there is general agreement that these areas have to be modernized.
I appreciate the opportunity to put those comments on the record. I hope that they can be dealt with because the issue is certainly causing great frustration in my constituency and has in the past. I suspect it is causing the Minister, his officials and divisional board personnel frustrations as well. But, most important, it seems to be wasting public money.
I won't say any more, except there is one additional comment I would like to make. This Legislature has made a resolution about zero tolerance of violence. I think the objective of that resolution was to encourage other organizations and bodies to make similar commitments. I would like to say here, now, that, following what I have said about the zeal with which the NWT Teachers' Association seems to have pursued the interests of teachers against students who commit violence, I would like to challenge the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association to consider adopting principles of zero tolerance of violence for their own members as well.
---Applause
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Tony Whitford
Thank you, Mr. Patterson. We are on details of grants and contributions on page 18-19. I understood, from what Mr. Patterson said, he wasn't expecting a comment back. Proceeding on, contributions. Mr. Patterson.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
If there is no one else, Mr. Chairman, I have another issue I would like to address. It relates to Arctic College. Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister is aware of the shortage of married student housing in the Nunatta Campus. As I understand it, this past fall, there were some 26 applications that were filled for married student accommodation in the 26 units that are presently available in Iqaluit. After those
applications were filled this past fall, there were still 31 students with families on the waiting list. I think I made the point in general comments that these students are, in my opinion, good-risk students because they are mature, solid and committed and, often going back to school after having been in the work place, wanting to prove themselves. Most of them are aboriginal students. I understand that the department has put out a tender to survey the student housing requirements in all of the regions. I think this is a good move. Where is that process at? How soon does the Minister expect to receive recommendations on this issue? Since there is a desperate situation in some campuses, when can we expect to have a response from the department and the college? Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That particular contract that Mr. Patterson pointed out to Members has been issued. The assessment should be done hopefully by the end of April. It would give us some time to deal with how we address the matter of capital expenditures over the next several years. Our view is that we should not be dealing with it only on the immediate requirement, but also long-term planning. That is what we are trying to consider in terms of planning for residences, generally.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know the Minister has yet to receive the consultant's recommendations, but instead of the expensive alternative of building student residences, the approach which has been taken in the past, are there other approaches that could be taken in perhaps encouraging the private sector to fill these needs, entering into lease arrangements, guaranteeing occupancy? Will these kinds of options be considered by the Minister? They would allow things to happen much more quickly than building something into a five year capital plan. I am hoping that there will be solutions by next fall. Perhaps I am naive. There were 31 families who couldn't go to school because of housing problems this past fall. I think that is a crying shame. Thank you.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, those are in the back of our minds. There is nothing to suggest at the present that we're in any way stopping private investors from making their own commitments with a view that the student population could increase in any particular community. That is a decision that they have to make, but we would never stand in the way of that option.
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a comment. Unfortunately, the real estate market in Iqaluit, at least, and I suspect in most of the off-highway communities, is such that, without some inducements and guarantees, the private sector won't even build a single staff housing unit, let alone a multi-plex for students. I think there are going to have to be some creative solutions sought in cooperation with the private sector, rather than just waiting for something to happen. I may be criticized for even daring to suggest this in this Assembly by my student constituents, but it strikes me that the very low charges for room and board in the college system, although they are very favourable to students, may actually be a disincentive to students actively seeking their own accommodation the way college students do in the rest of the country. I wonder if the review of student financial assistance might also look at that issue. We might be able to, at least, go some way to meeting student accommodation needs if we gave students loans and grants to pay for their own accommodation costs and then repay the state once they graduated, rather than charging them very small rates for room and board to live in a government-owned student residence. Maybe we have to look at a different approach to providing student accommodation and give the students more money but ask them to pay it back when they graduate.
If the Minister has any comments on that, I would be interested. Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
In terms of whether or not students use other units, we generally cover those additional costs anyhow. Student financial assistance does that already. The fact is, the resources could be accessed if other additional housing units were to be made available. However, I would be extremely cautious in making that comment, because I don't want the private sector to get the view that they can gouge the system either. I think it has to be reasonable, fair and with the view that there is a return on the investment they've made and they're not losing in the process. That's what I would suggest.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. I have Mr. Arvaluk and then Mr. Ng.
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James Arvaluk Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick question, referring to the Minister's letter to me regarding Victor Sammurtok School. As an example only, it seems that the design was made without any regard for delivery of specialized programs. He suggested that because the community has been focusing on specialized programs, it created overcrowding in Victor Sammurtok School and that it was not necessarily according to the divisional board's calculation of occupancy/utilization rates. Those two become different in that regard. When renovations or expansions are made or there are new schools built, will there be accommodation so that specialized programs can be incorporated into new facilities?
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. I believe that with the involvement of the communities with the board in terms of the planning for any renovations or any new schools in the future, we'll get a better reflection of the actual community needs and then we can build institutions around needs. Without, of course, creating a situation where we are building more than what is really necessary for that particular community. In other words, we'll look at what is needed in terms of programming requirements, but at the same time the program requirements also have to take into consideration the
space available. We can work through innovation or we can build additions that can accommodate the programs being provided. There may be other buildings, for instance, in the community that could be utilized. Those kinds of options are always there for us to consider.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ng.
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Two quick questions regarding contributions for day care centres and homes. I'm just curious what the proportion would be for ongoing funding for the day care centres and homes versus the start-up end of it under the $1.2 million? Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have the actual breakdowns, but I would be prepared to provide a copy of the breakdowns.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Member for Kitikmeot.
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm also interested -- and I don't know if you have this available now -- in how the O and M funding is determined for each specific day care facility? Is it based on the number of days used, the capacity, or the costs of operating in each particular community? What kinds of criteria do you use to evaluate that? Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. We would have to provide that to the honourable Member, however, the Member should be aware that we are changing some of the criteria, policies and rate structures because we are making major changes in our programming. So, while I may provide you with a copy of those at this particular juncture, by June we should have some major changes to how we provide child care programming in the Northwest Territories.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ng.
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you. My final question is with regard to Arctic College contributions on the last page. There are no designated residences for Arctic College programming in the Kitikmeot like they have in other regions, from what I understand. Because of that, I guess there is no stability in delivering the programs because they don't know what is available for residences, so they don't know how many students they can accommodate for each program. I'm just wondering if your department has any plans to work with Arctic College to address that issue? Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. There are two parts to how we're addressing the issue. One, there is a review being conducted on student residences and accommodation. The Member for Iqaluit pointed out that we have a contract for that. The other one is the strategic plan of Arctic College which will offer some methods with which we can address those particular needs.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Contributions, $170.923 million.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Grants and contributions, $178.503 million.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Page 18-20, information item, Arctic College.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Page 18-21, information item, Arctic College.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Page 18-22, information item, Arctic College.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Information item, details of culture and careers activity by task on page 18-23.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Information item, detail of educational development activity by task on page 18-24. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Information item, detail of funding allocated to school boards on page 18-25.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The next one is information item, divisional boards of education. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
And then, student loan revolving fund. Mr. Lewis.
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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the past, we've asked questions about loans that had been written off. In other words, they're not forgiven, they are loans which are still on the books but for all practical purposes, they're not deemed to be collectible. They still remain a debt on the part of the student. I notice that this year there is a large amount of money that is
being forgiven. I would like to ask the Minister what is the criteria to determine whether a loan should be forgiven or not?
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could ask Mr. Devitt to respond to that, please.
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The Chair John Ningark
Go ahead, Mr. Devitt.
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Devitt
Mr. Chairman, to be eligible to have a loan remitted, a student must have successfully completed at least 60 per cent of their programs, and they must also return to the Northwest Territories to live. Thank you.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Lewis.
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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre
So there is this whole other category of student, then, that, for one reason or another, has borrowed money but can't get work or has become sick or whatever. There would be none of those people included in this over a million dollars that we are, in fact, going to be forgiving students through the remission program.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the loans forgiven, that is correct.
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The Chair John Ningark
Qujannamiik. Information item, student loan revolving fund. Agreed? Mr. Whitford.
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Tony Whitford Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the same category as the previous question dealing with student loans and the ability to repay, there are times that students who are originally from the Northwest Territories -- born and raised in the territories, but they are not aboriginal -- find, upon their return, they are unable to repay the loan because there isn't any work in their area or any work at all, and in order to make a living, they have to go away, at least temporarily, from the territories to work. If they were staying in the territories, that loan would be forgiven, but the fact is that they can't. They end up owing this amount of money. Are there any provisions at all for dealing with this kind of a situation? You know, they are bona fide residents of the territories, and in some cases - I will just add on to it a little bit here, Mr. Chairman - the question had been put to me about whether or not time spent in a voluntary type of work elsewhere in Canada or abroad would contribute to repayment in time, so to speak, of a loan for those individuals who do meet that residential criteria. Are there any provisions at all for that, or is this an impossible situation?
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister for Education.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the present criteria, there are no provisions for that kind of situation, except I must say to the honourable Member that the Ministers of Education across the country are reviewing the possibility of what you might say is income contingent repayment. In other words, your repayment is determined by the kind of income that you are making. If it reduces the actual loan for that particular month or that particular year because you have a reduced income, then that is what going to be considered. But that is a national initiative, and if all the other Ministers agree on that kind of initiative for loan repayments across the country and the federal government agrees with it, then we will be able to implement it. But that work is now ongoing. We started it this past year.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Page 18-27 of the 1994-95 main estimates on Education, Culture and Employment, student loan revolving fund. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Detail of work performed on behalf of third parties. Agreed? Mr. Gargan.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Is there any more money for the northern oil and gas action program now?
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The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. No, it is a discontinued program.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Gargan. 18-28.
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho
Well, continuous up to 18-31. So, I am just wondering about the official languages, aboriginal and French. There are no numbers designated. What is the progress on this whole thing?
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. That particular question is best directed to the Premier, who is not here at the moment, because she is in charge of the overall position. The honourable Member may want to pose that particular question at a more appropriate time.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Page 18-30. 18-31. 18-28, 18-29, 18-30, 18-31. Agreed? Do I have agreement?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Page 18-31, total department, $554,000. That is the detail of work performed on behalf of third parties. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Back to the summary. Program summary on page 18-11, total O and M, $212.547 million. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you very much. Does the committee of the whole agree that this department is concluded?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you very much. I would like to thank the Minister and witnesses for appearing before the committee of the whole. Thank you very much. That was a long one.
There was a suggestion by Mr. Dent, and with the concurrence of the committee of the whole, we will deal with the Department of Safety and Public Services on page 08-8. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Department Of Safety And Public Services
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Does the appropriate Minister have any opening remarks for the committee of the whole? Minister Nerysoo.
Introductory Remarks
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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to present the proposed 1994-95 O and M budget for the Department of Safety and Public Services. For 1994-95, the Department is requesting $6.512 million compared to last year's budget of $6.410 million, for a net increase of $102,000. This increase is the result of an additional $100,000 contributed by the Workers' Compensation Board to fund the workers' advisor position and $2,000 returned to the department base as a result of changes in the proposed program reduction initiatives. The department is projecting revenues of $18.279 million, an increase of $415,000.
I am pleased to inform you that the department is making progress in its affirmative action program. At present, 19 per cent of our staff are aboriginal people and an additional 15 per cent are indigenous non-native. The department has taken steps to further improve its record in this area. For example, our labour standards inspector trainee will be completing her training program in August 1994, and our safety officer trainee was hired in July 1993.
The department has three major initiatives for 1994-95. The first one is completion of the legislative process to enact new mine safety legislation. This process has already involved extensive consultation with mining companies, exploration companies, mine unions and representatives of unorganized
mine workers, through the involvement of occupational health and safety committees.
The second initiative is to determine the feasibility, assess the impact and potentially plan for new gaming initiatives.
The third initiative also involves a major consultative process with the residents of the NWT to bring forward a new Liquor Act by 1996.
Beyond these three initiatives are three other objectives, including the tabling of a legislative action paper on electrical safety, the possible transfer of lottery licensing to various communities under the community transfer initiative, and continuation of work on discussion papers that will lead to a new Labour Standards Act. Six discussion papers on labour standards have already been sent out for public comment.
Fire safety continues to be a concern, especially among our young people. The office of the fire marshal has revised the learn not to burn curriculum for preschool to grade three students.
Mr. Chairman, the investigation of accidents and fatalities to determine causes and make recommendations to reduce such accidents will continue to be a high priority in the department, along with monitoring work places to ensure that work practices are safe. The department will continue to ensure that the safety and health of the public is protected through the effective enforcement and administration of legislation pertaining to fire, safety, gas, boiler and pressure vessels, safety, electrical and elevator safety.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to present these short introductory remarks to the Members of the committee.
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The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Do we have the statement from the finance committee? Mr. Ng.
Standing Committee On Finance Comments
New Initiatives
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Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The department identified three major initiatives for this coming fiscal year: new mine safety legislation, new gaming initiatives and a new Liquor Act.
The committee has concerns about these initiatives. Most importantly, committee Members are concerned that this department, and perhaps the government as a whole, may be announcing a number of new initiatives which they will not be able to complete at once. Each of these initiatives is complex and potentially quite controversial. There has already been much controversy and contention over proposed new mine safety legislation, for example. Also, recent developments, such as the Catholic bishop's banning of bingo in western Arctic catholic churches, suggest that new gaming initiatives could meet with resistance and controversy.
While such initiatives may be worthy of consideration, and certainly new mine safety legislation is urgently needed, the committee feels the department should carefully prioritize its objectives.
More Safety Inspectors Needed
The government's restraint initiatives over the last few years have been effective in keeping the territories out of the kind of chronic debt that is plaguing every other government in the country. However, the Department of Safety and Public Services demonstrates that restraint can be a blunt instrument, often hurting where an impact was not desired.
The Northwest Territories is now home to the biggest staking rush in Canadian history. Since October 31, 1991, over 48 million acres, or almost six per cent of the NWT's area, have been staked for mineral exploration, mostly in search of diamonds. Two mining companies have set up bulk sample operations in hopes of being able to justify actual diamond mines. Lead/zinc exploration in the Izok Lake area continues with hopes of a new mine opening there. But, because of restraint measures, the number of mining inspectors has not increased.
The committee recognizes that mining is a dangerous occupation and that there is a need to improve our mine safety record. This, combined with the recent and anticipated growth in the mining industry, indicates that an increase in the number of mine safety inspectors is urgently required.
The committee is basically reacting to Workers' Compensation Board reports that the mining industry and the construction industry have the highest level of accidents in the Northwest Territories. Given that, committee Members feel that there is an impetus, as well, to increase the number of occupational health and safety inspectors in the construction field. Committee Members are encouraged by government assurances that the situation will be examined.
Recommendation 31
The committee recommends that the Department of Safety and Public Services develop a plan to hire more safety inspectors, especially in the areas of mine safety and occupational health and safety for construction workers, and respond to the committee with that plan by August 1, 1994.
More Fire Safety Resources Needed
The committee expressed concern about the NWT's poor fire safety record. There is a special concern that initiatives of the fire marshal's office are not being felt at the community level. Members felt that appointing and supporting a "fire chief" in each community could be the best way to address the problem. Such a person could administer and train the community's volunteer fire brigade, implement prevention initiatives, and so on.
The committee suggests that the Department of Safety and Public Services, in cooperation with the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs or other departments, consider supporting positions for fire prevention and suppression in the communities, and report back to the committee with an analysis.