Mr. Chairman, we do, periodically, assess what we are able to complete in the time we have. The Member knows we are on the last leg of our political lifespan for this particular session. There are certain pieces of legislation that will take priority over others. It is my understanding that the drafting for new legislation in that area has started. It will probably take about a year before we have something that could be circulated for comment and consultation, so anything substantial probably won't happen. Final draft legislation won't be able to be put before Cabinet and then to SCOF, for instance, until early in the life of the next legislature. Thank you.
Debates of March 2nd, 1994
Topics
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. General comments. The honourable Member for Inuvik.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
Fred Koe Inuvik
This new bill is very complicated and lengthy. It is going to establish new systems for registration of transactions involving security interests. It is to replace the systems that are set out in the assignment of Book Debts Act; Bills of Sale Act; Conditional Sales Act; Corporation Securities Registration Act and Document Registry Act. If this bill is passed and comes into effect, what happens to the acts that I just mentioned? Do they have to be repealed somewhere, do they continue with the clauses in them or does this act replace those other acts?
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, I think, in the last part of this legislative proposal it sets out that all of those pieces of legislation will be repealed. Thank you.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Koe.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
Fred Koe Inuvik
Thank you. Can the Minister, then, tell me in some plain and simple language why we should approve this act?
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 478
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, I follow script on items of business like this because it is not really my forte, so to speak. The opening comments I gave is about as simple as I can get it on largely technical, commercial drafting legislative language. I usually defer to the professionals who sit with me
because, in my language, there is no clear way to say these things. It is very legal. It is not my language, so to speak, so I am not certain what else I can suggest to the Member. It is a language of a different profession from mine. Thank you.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Koe.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Fred Koe Inuvik
Can the Minister ask one of his staff, then, to tell us? I know we have heard the script. The script was very complicated, too. That is why I asked the question, for people out there who ask why would we approve this bill. We need some terms that laymen can understand.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. The honourable Minister, you can assign the response for one of your witnesses.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, it has been pointed out and recognized by not only ourselves, but members of the public, who find difficulty with our broad range of what is considered to be outdated legislation. The fact that almost all other jurisdictions in Canada have adopted legislation that is similar to this, which is what we are proposing, I think reflects that. In simple language, I believe that making these types of services in government available by computerizing it is a large argument in its favour. The days when we write manually, by hand or typing into large ledgers, the type of information that we are obliged to keep, has to end. The year 1994 is a very good year to end it. Because the type of information that we are obliged to keep for lenders and borrowers is manual, it is not available to be accessed from Inuvik, Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet, Norman Wells or any of the communities. You largely have to ask somebody by phone or by letter to go and do searches for you in the courthouse where these documents are kept.
One of the points we make in our presentation is that we think we can decentralize this service by making it available through networking with the regional offices and just through accessing it on the government's computer system. Checking the status of an automobile or other equipment through serial numbers is, again, something that would greatly expedite business for many people. I think it will help people do business much faster by checking for all the borrowers and lenders who have interests in certain things, such as ski-doos, automobiles and trucks, by just tapping a serial number into a computer. Those are the simple ones. I guess there are more technical ones than those. As to what kicks out on a computer screen is another one.
As I understand it, right now it is all kept in one place for a manual system for all the details you want to know about certain items. A computer system, I think, will restrict access. It will contain all the information you want about certain items of business interest, but it would not allow everybody to access all the financial information. There is quick, easy access, but there is a way to restrict it, as well. That is the point I made in my opening comments.
I said we're setting up one act so it's comprehensive, one set of rules to govern all the different interests that require some element of security for the parties involved. It simplifies it, it makes it comprehensive and we catch up to the rest of Canada. Thank you.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. If we really believe in Shakespeare, the bill wouldn't even be here. Mr. Zoe, general comments.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Henry Zoe North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I notice that the Minister indicated all the good points. One of the questions is, in terms of registering all this activity of businesses and individuals, is there going to be costs implemented through this bill to individuals who register? Is there a cost associated? The requirement is that people have to register all their debts and loans and it is going to be computerized. That's the intent of the bill.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. MacDougall.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Macdougall
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are fees prescribed, at present, for registration for all the types of documents under the various acts that are referred to that will be repealed by this act. Certainly, under the new act, there will be fees required for the registration of those documents. The exact amount of each fee is certainly not something that has been determined as of yet. It is not anticipated that it will be substantially out of line with the current amounts. There may be increases because of the ongoing costs of running a computer system, but they wouldn't be out of proportion to the current fees.
It is the type of thing that the Minister noted, where when you're searching and it takes half an hour to do it manually, it doesn't take a lot to persuade you to pay a little bit more to obtain it immediately without putting in that half hour's effort. Thank you.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. General comments. Mr. Zoe.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Henry Zoe North Slave
I'll be supporting the bill because it is streamlining the current system by repealing all the other acts and so that it can be computerized. But another question I would like to ask is with regard to the confidentiality of registration. Can anyone have direct access to all the information that is registered here? Is that the intent? For businesses that register all their loans and assets. How would that work? Can anybody from the street go into our government office and ask, can I get a computer print of this individual or this company and find out about who they owe and so forth? Is there any restriction in that area?
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Minister.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Mr. Chairman, I have asked Mr. MacDougall if he would tell us how this is being accessed now, through the manual system, and how it will be accessed through the proposed computer system.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. MacDougall.
Bill 7: Personal Property Security Act
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 479
Macdougall
The existing system contains no limits on accessing the information. The information that is recorded
now is the entire agreement, at least at the time they entered into the agreement, between the parties. As a result, it sets out all the financial details, the amount that's intended to be borrowed, repayment schedules, all of the financial details as well as the goods that are collateral under the agreement. That information is available to anyone who comes to the office and requests photocopies of any of those documents.
Under the system this act would put in place, the information that is entered into the registry system is still fully accessible by all members of the public, but the only information that is entered in is the information really essential to begin to make a decision in terms of financing. That is essentially the name of the parties and a brief description of whatever the collateral may be for the particular loan. There isn't a provision to typically note how much is intended to be borrowed, merely that some amount is intended to be borrowed and the collateral which is the security for that loan.
It is only the key information that would be available directly through the computer system. It would be a more broad-based availability. It wouldn't be something that would be available necessarily only in Yellowknife, but it cuts it down to the essential information necessary to be known. Once the prospective lender has identified that the collateral they would intend to take as security is included on a particular statement, they would then have to go to the person they are proposing to lend the money to and have them obtain directly from the other party complete financial details. So, essentially, apart from law enforcement officials and a few narrow exceptions, it is typically just the borrower who is, under the act, entitled to request the complete details from the person they originally borrowed the money from of what may remain owing and what the terms of the agreement are.
It strikes a more proper balance between the information that is necessary to be able to make an informed decision when lending money and doesn't violate the privacy of the individual by revealing to anybody who is interested in all financial information.