Agreed.

---Agreed

Family And Children's Services

Family and Children's Services. Now the honourable Minister can respond to Mr. Gargan. Honourable Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On Mr. Gargan's comment on the amount of violence there is in the NWT, I can only speculate because I don't believe there has been any kind of scientific study carried out on this specifically, in the NWT. I really don't have any basis to make a comment on why violence is so high here, other than the fact that within the last ten to 25 years, the aboriginal people in the NWT have undergone tremendous change which, I think, has resulted in the social problems we have today.

I can understand and appreciate Mr. Gargan's concerns on custom adoption. If he feels we shouldn't be tinkering with custom adoption, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. I have a very strong traditional background, having been brought up in an Inuit family who believes in open adoptions, what we call custom adoptions. One of the beauties of our custom in adopting a child is that all it requires is the consent of two parents. Most of the time, not all the time, the father doesn't really have any say.

This legislation is just going to deal with the process, and I'm quite comfortable with it, as the Minister responsible for adoptions. We're in a situation where a grandparent has to lose a case over trying to adopt her grandchild. The way our situation is set up, with courts, even the custom adopted children, if they wish when they grow up, can't go back and try to look into their files if they don't happen to know who their real parents are because their files are sealed. Custom adoption would allow for open adoption, and I think it would be more relevant to our aboriginal population that the present practice is not lost.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, the only reason custom adoption is recognized right now is because it has been kept away from the white law books. That's what makes a custom. Once you put it into the white system of law, it is no longer custom adoption. It becomes part of the white judicial system. I don't know why it is so difficult to recognize that. I'm saying it is recognized now, under section 35 of the Constitution. I think the case you have referred to has already been overturned. The grandparents of this custom adoption child who died because of an accident, have been awarded the insurance. The decision was only based on section 35 of the Constitution, I believe.

All I'm saying is why put something that is already recognized and is still an aboriginal custom, into law? I think that doing what you're doing might result in something like section 25 of the Education Act with regard to ethnic culture. I think it's section 25, but if it isn't, it's a section of the Education Act which says that we should start delivering aboriginal cultural programs in all the schools.

So it becomes, again, law, white law, in which my responsibility as an aboriginal person is given to the white system of law to be delivered. It is something that I have been fighting with for I don't know how many years.

But, again, like I said, Madam Minister, when you take away part of the culture and you adopt it into a different system, it really takes away something, a piece of yourself, I would think, and we still think that we don't have any...We know what the problems are.

Again, you did talk about violence, and, yes, violence is five times the national average, just as suicide is. Also, the prisons are five times the national average, too. But we knew that ten years ago and we still don't have an answer for it. I think it's a damned shame that, after all these years, we haven't identified anything that suggests what really is wrong. It really embarrasses me, Mr. Chairman, when we hear the media saying that these are the stats up here.

Mr. Chairman, just one more question and one other thing I wanted to ask the Minister about is with regard to a psychologist in Fort McPherson. Do you actually have a psychologist there right now?

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the psychologist, we do fund the community to hire their own, but that person is not an employee of Social Services.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

(Microphone turned off)

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it was about a year ago that the chief came and requested some funds to try and address some of the problems of attempted suicides and suicides in that community, and I agreed to provide some funding for that community. The contract, I believe, is with the band council.

Thank you. On family and children's services. Mr. Gargan, to the issue.

It's probably going to be on the next page that I will have another question.

Thank you. Section 15, page 11, family and children's services, total O and M, $12.052 million. I have Mr. Ballantyne.

Where are we at, family and children's services?

(Microphone turned off)

I thought you said $52,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in my opening comments, I talked about where I think there should be either new resources or where there should be reallocation of present resources, and this is the activity that I am talking about. I really believe that an extra $1 million spent on this activity is, five years down the line, going to save you many millions in the next two activities -- in the alcohol and drugs/community mental health area or in the whole area of people being on social services.

So this is the area that I am going to be looking at, hopefully, in a supp, if not new money. If you can't wrest new money from the Minister of Finance, then seriously consider some reallocation of funds.

My second point is in response to something that the Minister said about child sexual abuse which I want to emphasize. I think it's the most serious social problem facing us in the territories. I agree with the Minister that, over the last five years, it is now easier for people to talk about it. It is something that is now being discussed at a community level and people are starting to report what's going on. That is a very positive sign, but that in itself is not going to solve the problem.

For me, it is a multi-faceted approach to the problem. I, for one -- and other MLAs in the Legislative Assembly may disagree with me, but I have been quite consistent over the years -- have very little sympathy for child sexual abusers, and I am happy to see that the trend across the country is that the sentences for convicted child sexual abusers are getting longer. Society is taking it more seriously and I, for one, am happy to see that.

Though I agree that we need more rehabilitation, the reality is that child sexual abuse is a very difficult area for rehabilitation.

I take it one step further, I agree with the stiff sentences for sexual abusers. For repeat offenders, as far I am concerned, you should throw away the damned key -- sorry, Mr. Chairman -- because I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for repeat offenders.

I think, when we talk about the social and personal problems that lead somebody to abuse a child, we have to keep in mind the child itself. The child, he or she, is very vulnerable and very, very innocent. I think if ever it comes to a choice between an offender, for whatever horrible things might have happened to them over their life -- and I agree that a lot of them have had horrible experiences -- our ultimate and first line of defence has to be for those innocent children. Any society that can't defend their children, I think, loses all credibility as being a society. In the history of the world, every healthy culture and every healthy civilization has always had an extremely severe taboo against child sexual abuse.

So I think that community leaders and community groups have to be continually encouraged to speak out against child sexual abuse. It has to be very clear to everybody that nobody in our society condones it, whatsoever. I believe it's very important that we get that point across in any way possible.

What I hope to see from the department over the next year is some really strong leadership in this area. I think there has been a good base that's been built. I think the department has done a lot of good work to get us to where we are, but I think it's time to go to the next step. I think there is always some hesitance because the reality is that the problem is so profound, potentially so severe, it is almost overwhelming to try to deal with. I think, though, if we don't deal with it now the problem is going to compound many times for the next generation.

So I don't have a question for the Minister, but I just want the Minister and the deputy to clearly know where I am coming from and the sort of leadership that I'll be looking at when we come back here in the fall session. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. I know this issue of Social Services, family and children's services, is a very emotional issue, but I would remind the Members to watch the language we use in this House. No matter what kind of language we use, it is not going to change the situation unless we work diplomatically together in the system. All right? Family and children's services, total O & M, $12.052 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed Alcohol And Drugs And Community Mental Health

Thank you. Page 15-12, alcohol, drugs and community mental health, total O & M, $12.682 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Community And Family Support Services

Thank you. Community and family support services, total O & M, $43.576 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Details of grants and contributions. Grants, $290,000. Agreed?