Thank you. General comments. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Just one final general comment. Would the Minister obtain for me the amount of funds that are expended by his department for the visitors' centre? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Yes, I'd be happy to provide that to the honourable Member. I want to say again that I think historically we've perhaps put money in the area of visitors' centres that hasn't been able to demonstrate the return on investment. Clearly, we have direction from SCOL that these fiscal investments which are large will be based upon our ability to stand in this House and try to demonstrate the return on investment. Certainly, that's the approach we've taken in the last two years. Thank you.

Thank you. We are dealing with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. This is the 1995-96 main estimates. We are dealing with the activity summary. Are there any more general comments? Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to congratulate the Minister on the work he and his staff are doing in the department. I've noticed, especially in my trips to the communities, the benefits of the initiatives that the Minister has done. He has taken steps and devolved responsibilities and authorities from headquarters to regions. He has also moved, physically, person years from headquarters to the regions. I hope that these initiatives are not being ignored by other Ministers. I think these are examples that should be followed by all departments in devolving responsibilities from headquarters to regions, and in turn to communities.

Early in his ministerial career, one of the Minister's initiatives was...I think he used the words "jobs, jobs, jobs." Try to create jobs in the smaller communities, in all our communities. I want to say that creation of jobs is not...Sure, there is a lack of jobs in small communities, but many larger communities -- mine, in particular -- still have a high unemployment rate. There's not a lot of industry going on and there's a need to assist and help in a community such as Inuvik. We have to create and help create and help assist the creation of small businesses. I think it's well-known that if you have 10 small businesses with two or three jobs each, that's 20 to 30 jobs. It think it's been proven that the small business grants and contributions really go a long way in generating these one or two-man businesses.

The investments, as the Minister mentioned, from the Business Development Corporation, a lot of the money has initially gone into replacing buildings. That's a high-cost effort and really is not generating many new jobs. I think the construction has generated some jobs but basically you've just housed the employees that were there before in new buildings and new comforts and, hopefully, it might increase their productivity but I'm not sure if we've got any numbers on that.

One of the issues, I guess, and it's still something that has to be looked at -- the devolution of responsibilities and authorities for contributions and grants may have eased it a bit -- there's still in loans and, I think, in EDA a long waiting period for cheques. I know one time it used to be 90, 180 days, maybe longer. I think that's reduced now to maybe 30 to 45 days or whatever it is but small, $20,000 or $15,000 cheques shouldn't take that long. We have regional finance officers that can issue cheques in the region and something should be done there to help get the monies out quicker.

One area that I didn't see very much of in the Minister's statement was with regard to co-ops. Co-ops are still very valid and going concerns. They're still one of the largest employers of northerners, especially aboriginal people in the north. They are registered businesses and I think they should be given proper credit. They should be supported in whatever way possible.

I still, personally, have trouble with the concept of level I, level II, and level III communities. As I mentioned earlier, the problems of high unemployment, the problems of transportation, all the criteria used when generating economic...In running businesses, it doesn't matter where you are in the north because I think they're all the same to different degrees, and I think we should look at that concept of how we categorize communities. Help should be given where needed on meaningful and employment-generating initiatives. That's all I wanted to say. Mahsi.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I do appreciate the Member's kind words. The fundamental changes that we made to this department -- and, frankly, that's why I took the time to explain them -- are significant, and I'm pleased that we took the lead on this, ED&T. The proof, if you want, of whether we were successful or not is really going to be up to the regions and the regional superintendents who are now part of our senior management team. They now have the fiscal authority -- and I've said this a number of times in the House -- for large chunks of money which, historically, lay in the hands of headquarters. They now develop the policy of the department through consultation with the communities which historically was developed by headquarters. They, in fact, as Mr. Koe alluded to about the EDA, have approval up to $200,000 although the cheques still come out of Yellowknife and maybe that's a problem we have to look at.

So I'm really, not smug, but pleased about the fact that we've been able to make these changes, and while it's not perfect, I think it's gone a long way to making it a little better. I think the comment about the development of small business and the $500,000 grant system has had a bit of an impact on a lot of people. Certainly, with respect to the efforts we are making with arts and crafts and the fact that we now have not only some of the cooperatives who have been involved for a long time, we now have the new Northwest Company which is a very aggressive company right now across the whole network; they are very active with us, in partnership, in trying to develop the arts and crafts field.

While we've a long way to go on some issues, we need to ensure that we get a faster turnaround with cheques. I think that's an argument we've had for years, whether we've been members of the House or the private sector. I think we're not quite there yet but we're getting there. With this House's indulgence and patience, I think in the next six or seven months we will reinforce what we've put into place. I'm optimistic that we'll be able to streamline things much more effectively. We'll be able to turn around the grants and the cheques more expeditiously. We've got policies now that will help the small business person that simply weren't there before, and I think, from what I've seen so far, we also streamlined the paper where there is far less bureaucratic red tape to get the kinds of monies that people are requesting. As I've said, we're not perfect by any means but we've come a long way in a short period of time, and if you'll bear with us for the next six or seven months, I'm optimistic you'll see even more change that reflects the advice that each and every one of you gave us. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. If we were smart and perfect, I don't think we'd be here. Mr. Koe.

Thank you. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention tourism and the initiatives and again, some of the initiatives that are going on in the Inuvik region are much-needed for our economy. Again, on behalf of the people in the region, I want to thank the department for doing what they're doing. There's still a lot of work to do because we're just developing and this was mentioned, that we just completed a visitors' centre which is much needed.

Inuvik being one of the emerging markets, there's been a lot of new entrepreneurs opening businesses and they need a lot of help and assistance. The department has a lot of that knowledge and background and I would appreciate if the Minister would continue putting some initiatives and efforts into the tourism area. It's one of the issues that I'm very interested in and have always been. The Dempster Highway is a tourism attraction in itself and I know, speaking to the Minister, wearing his Transportation Minister's hat, that some of the things that are going to happen with the Dempster, again, would be appreciated and would help generate business.

Tourism, as it is here in Yellowknife and I think happening up in the Delta now, is becoming more than a three-month business. We're looking at the shoulder seasons and spring time festivals, and I think any marketing assistance would be appreciated. I notice that there's been a reduction in the core funding for the industry but I hope that reduction is now going direct to the entrepreneurs themselves rather than just being cut and not being used in the industry. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I believe the honourable Minister wants to respond. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. It does give me the opportunity to say a couple of things. I think, first of all, historically -- and maybe I'm repeating myself to the point of boredom -- a lot of what was going on in terms of policy and the direction of tourism development was driven at headquarters. I was fundamentally opposed to that. It is now driven by the superintendents who, theoretically, are supposed to discuss it with industry.

One of our initiatives right now -- which I hope will be met with support in this House -- is we are doing a review of what we call the Tourism Industry Association. I believe that the current Tourism Industry Association no longer reflects well enough the different and diverse tourist interests across the territories. I said in my speech that there is clearly a need for an east/west split. And it's not just because of Nunavut; it is also because of the different conditions. In Mr. Koe's area, you can fly in on a jet or you can drive in a truck. In Mr. Ningark's area and Mr. Pudluk's area, you simply cannot do it. The conditions are different.

It is my hope that we will get support for two industry associations. Once we have support for these two industry associations, I'm committed to taking the marketing dollars that are currently spent under the direction of civil servants and putting it into the hands of those associations for them to determine how that money is spent. Let me assure you, those are significant dollars. We're not talking about $40,000 to $50,000; we are talking about $1 million.

It would be my hope, if we can get general consensus that we move towards two associations, that we find some way to streamline the zones -- and I am ready for the question on zones and will answer the question when we get to it -- and their representative nature. It is my hope that we will have two associations. If we can get that, I'm prepared to transfer the fiscal dollars that are in marketing to those associations for them to determine where they go. Thank you.

Qujannamiik. General comments. Sorry, Mr. Lewis, I didn't see you. Mr. Lewis and then Mr. Whitford. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There's no reference to it in the Minister's remarks, but several years ago there was a proposal to have a development corporation. The reason for that was we really did believe that this department would be doing economic development. The thought was there are lots of people who are natural entrepreneurs in the territories who would like to do things and who maybe need to know more about something or need to have some assistance.

When, about four or five years ago, we proposed some kind of development corporation, I was shocked when the government came forward with an act to create a corporation that would run businesses. That's what the corporation was to do. I think anyone who listened to Mr. Martin's budget address this afternoon will know that nearly every government now is trying to get out of those things which are business-like. Business should look after business. What I had hoped would have happened some years ago when the initiative was taken to establish a development corporation was that there would have been a pool of money and a network put in place for real economic development to take place.

In other words, if you wanted to establish a brewery, you could get a brew master for six months to show you how to do it, or if you were going to go into meat processing, you could get somebody to help you set up a meat processing operation so that you wouldn't be buying things and trying to run them.

It is pretty clear that governments are not really good at running businesses; it is not what they do. It is clear from the comments that we heard this afternoon that that is certainly the way the federal government is going and that's the way many of the provinces are going. They are going to try to do the things that governments do and try to do them well, like providing services, but business-type operations will be run by business. All government can do is provide some kind of support and assistance. That's what I had hoped would have happened some years ago when the opportunity was there to help and assist in economic development.

That's history now. We've got it. But, I never saw that as the way to go. Many of us didn't, but it was the wish of the government to proceed in that direction because it was felt that there had to some hands-on approaches to developing businesses and economic enterprises. Even though it was arm's length and run by a corporation, it was still really seen as being too close to government. That's the first comment I want to make: that government should get out of business and do government -- which they do well -- and we should try to find as many ways as we can to support and help business to develop. We should assume that governments should only have a supportive role and maybe help to create conditions, through all kinds of regimes, to help support business.

That brings me to my second point. When I responded to Mr. Pollard's budget the other day, I only had one criticism. First of all, it was said that the only hope we have is to create wealth; that we can't do it by trying to squeeze water out of one rock. We have to create wealth. To do that, we have to develop a private sector that will create jobs and so on. Yet, in this budget, I see several references to increases in fees in Economic Development, and different schedules and tariffs. If you are going to depend on private enterprise to create the wealth that we all recognize we're going to need, then it seems to me to be non-productive to then tax them because they can afford to pay a little bit more by increasing fees, licences and everything else.

If the Minister is going to respond, I would like to get some kind of feeling about what these fees and licence increases are because I know there is interest out there to find out exactly what the government has in mind in terms of imposing increases as revenue initiatives. Those are the only two comments I have to make.

I really believe that government should look again at what economic development is, rather than taking the position that government is going to run things through whatever agency to bring business on stream and make it productive. To me, the best thing is to try to find out where there is initiative and find some way of helping those people achieve their visions, what they want to do, by giving them access to the kinds of expertise they need to get off the ground. When you go into business, you are taking a big risk, especially if you have a fair amount of personal capital involved. You want to have some degree of comfort in knowing that there is someone who knows what they're doing and can help you to set up, at least for a certain period of time, as you learn the new enterprise you had a vision about but about which you need to know a little bit more.

That's what I thought economic development was all about: following other people's visions -- not what the government sees as a vision, but what people really want to do -- and helping them to determine whether they are feasible or not. Those are my two comments, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate some kind of response, at least on some of it.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, if you put the NWT Development Corporation aside for the moment, in fact, we are doing exactly what Mr. Lewis is saying. We are now responding to initiatives from the private sector, whether they are small cottage industries with $5,000 grants; whether it's the development of a garage operation in Rankin Inlet; or, whether it's arts and crafts in Cape Dorset. I think we're doing that. We're also trying to bring in new money by working in partnership with some cooperatives, the Northwest Company and a number of others.

My belief is we're doing it, though perhaps not as effectively as Mr. Lewis would like. When you're viewed as the Department of Economic Development, I guess sometimes you're viewed as responsible for solving all the economic ills of the area. That's difficult to do when you have the size of a budget we have and the limited mandate we have. I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying that I think that's what we have been doing, certainly in the last two years. We've been trying to provide support and aftercare for small business.

Regarding the NWT Development Corporation, first of all, it is important to say that I inherited this as a Minister. However, I fundamentally believe in some of the principles of it, where we have to at this time, during the interim development of some of these industries, provide some form of subsidization. It's fine to make comparisons to southern Canada, but I just don't think you can. I don't think there's anywhere else in southern Canada, except for maybe in the Maritime provinces, where you have 40, 50 and in some cases 60 per cent unemployment. Where we have the fastest growing budget right now in this Legislature is social assistance, that we have to find a ways and means in which to try to make people feel better about their lives and try to create some jobs and we do that through the policy which allows us to subsidize it.

I view the NWT Development Corporation as only one small part of the overall economic strategy to make life a little better in Arctic communities. I don't see it as the be-all and end-all. Whether it's an operation in Fort Liard making baskets, the Jessie Oonark Centre in Baker Lake, or the print centre in Pangnirtung, I think there's an interim requirement to get these businesses up and running, there's an overall objective to try to get them to break even and we would certainly be very, very pleased if they could make money. But I think it's incumbent upon us and this government, as has been the past practice and certainly the present practice, to recognize that at least on the front-end there is a need for some form of subsidization.

Let me tell you, the NWT board of directors and in particular the chairman, who is Bob Leonard from Arviat, a private-sector guy, clearly recognizes a need to try and reduce the subsidies and there is a great deal of effort going on to do that.

I think Mr. Lewis is correct; most people in the private sector don't view government in a particularly favourable light. I'm optimistic in the long term that some of these operations will eventually be able to break even, and optimistically, some of them may be able to make money and we can sell them off, et cetera. In fact, we did that last year. We sold off the logging operation out of Hay River. So it's not our economic salvation, but it's one part of making life a little better for people. That's my position. It still stays the same. I think there's a need for it at this time. Should it go on forever; I don't know at this stage of the game. I would hope that at some point there would be less requirement for the subsidies.

But I can tell you this, when I go to Gjoa Haven or I go to Arviat or Baker Lake or any of these communities that are bursting at the seams, and social assistance dollars are racing through the roof, we have to find a way in which to create some economic activity. It's not purely fiscal, it's also emotional. It's the fact that you feel better about yourself if you have a job.

I don't want to make a long spiel about this. I know in my own riding with the fish plant there, I've gone to the fish plant on a number of occasions where we've taken people who are unilingual, haven't got an opportunity, not a hope in heck of getting a job, and I can tell you the smiles on these people's faces as they're working, trying to make an effort. Is that money well spent? That's debatable. I think at this stage of the game it is.

I want to assure Mr. Lewis, that in the long term my belief is that we can hopefully limit the subsidies. Thank you.

Qujannamiik. General comments. Mr. Lewis. Mr. Minister.

---Recording Difficulties

...about the revenue component. I won't say it's insignificant, but the revenues that we're trying to generate, primarily social revenues, would be in campground user fees. The overall revenues that we're generating are about $87,000. The additional revenues that we want to try and get are through campground user fees. I would suggest that overall it won't have a significant impact on the private sector. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Are you through for now, Mr. Minister?

(Microphone turned off)

Mr. Whitford.

(Microphone turned off)