It's getting late in the afternoon, I would like to propose that we have a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

We're on page 15-13, culture and careers. Mr. Nerysoo was at the witness table when we broke. Mr. Nerysoo, would you like to have your witnesses to again join you at the table?

Thank you. Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I might have the support of my colleagues.

Do Members agree that Mr. Nerysoo should take the witness table?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Could the Sergeant-at-Arms ask the witnesses to come in, please?

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. For the record again, could you please introduce your witnesses for me.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my left is Mr. Hal Gerein, who is the deputy minister of Education, Culture and Employment. On my right is Mr. Paul Devitt, who is the director of finance and administration in the department.

Culture and Careers

Thank you very much. On culture and careers, we were on total O and M, $70,930 million. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, the document is being printed at this particular time. In fact, it's being printed today. We have to have them print it. The honourable Member should know that the document is a draft document that is being discussed with the boards. There are no final decisions on all the information in it. I made a commitment to provide the committee with a document that is draft so that the Members would get some information as to the work that we are now conducting with the boards. It's now with the printers and is being printed for the Members.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Some comments and some questions, then, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments made by the Member. It is a concern that, as Minister, I also share. I think that we have to reflect upon the issue of cost reductions based on the fiscal situation that we're all in. In other words, we have to try to find ways in which everyone has to pick up their share of paying for the financial problems or financial situation that we're in. I think that, generally speaking, we're at a stage now where those choices have to be made. As a result of that we've had to make our recommendations to the Arctic College board knowing that there's still an increase in the financial resources that they're going to be receiving. In spite of that, I do say to the honourable Member that, generally speaking, our course costs are as much as one-quarter of what would normally be charged at other institutions in the country. That, in my view, is a reflection of our commitment that we generally take the same position that the honourable Member has stated, and that is that we have to try to make as many of the courses available as possible to our northern community and our northern students.

There are other factors. I think that our student financial assistance program takes the responsibility of paying for much of the courses. The other component is that we have in some ways made it a little easier for our students in terms of child care costs, allowing for part-time students and full-time students to access resources, and upon the direction and advice from the Members of the Assembly we've been able to open the opportunities for financial support much better than it was previously. I share the concern.

The other component that we have to continue to be concerned about are the demographics. In other words, the total population increases and what that might mean in terms of the program or the access to college programming or post-secondary programs. I don't have much to say in opposition to the honourable Member but we do have to consider the financial situation and how we can accommodate the reductions while at the same time maintaining the level and the quality of service that we are now providing. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't ensure that our colleges and our campuses have the ability to expand their programs. We've done that on a number of occasions, but at the same time we have to seriously consider this issue of centres of excellence. The standing committee talked about that matter a number of times. We may not be able to offer a program in every campus so we have to ensure that if we have a program, it is based in a location where we can offer the best resources and services. The nursing program is a good example of that. The point that was made by Mr. Patterson on environmental technology is another one. At the same time, we have to recognize the point the honourable Member made; that is, trying to deliver some of these programs as close to home as possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Culture and careers, $70.930 million. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some questions in this area. Mr. Chairman, the Minister is aware of the Gjoa Haven leaders' summit that was held earlier this year where Nunavut education leaders, I think, had a very positive meeting with his officials. They took the lead in organizing a conference of Nunavut education leaders to work on developing a coordinated approach for training for Nunavut and I think it is not only kindergarten to grade 12 but also post-secondary. I'm sure the Minister has the report on what a positive conference that was, eliminating duplication, ensuring coordination of all the various actors: land claims organizations, aboriginal organizations, the federal government, et cetera.

I think it was a credit to the department that the department was asked to take the lead in organizing a follow-up meeting to build on the progress of the Gjoa Haven meeting and to develop a coordinated approach. I guess that entails some financial commitment, but to me it was important that our government had the credibility and was given the opportunity to lead the initiative. It was suggested that a senior government official should chair the next meeting. In fact, I know the Minister is aware that one of the recommendations was that there be a person named to be responsible for education and training in Nunavut, preferably a new ADM who would chair that meeting and lead that initiative.

I would like to ask the Minister, is he now able to respond and indicate whether the department will be replying to the challenge, the confidence placed in them, by the Nunavut education leaders? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the issue of structure of the department, before I respond to the issue of the ongoing process, I just want to advise the honourable Member that we are preparing plans and, hopefully, we'll have those plans completed by the end of April. Part of that is where we're going as a department in order for us to ensure we are ready for Nunavut in 1999, including the matter of the assistant deputy minister or senior staff member responsible for implementation.

I think it's necessary for us to deal with it in the context of what leadership is necessary so the organizations, including the boards of education, the Government of Canada, Nunavut Arctic College, NITC and NIC, can feel comfortable with it. We hope to have a broad response that will satisfy the direction given at the Gjoa Haven summit in January. I will indicate that we'll work on that and our plans will generally show our commitment to the implementation process, including the matter of staff.

The other component the honourable Member has mentioned with the matter of Nunavut education leaders, I want to say one thing: while that meeting took place in January in Gjoa Haven, let's not forget that the process began in the Keewatin a little over a year ago when the divisional boards of education brought together NITC and NIC in Rankin Inlet to begin the process of discussion about who would be responsible for the delivery of educational programming and post-secondary training. We were involved then and I can advise the honourable Member that we will continue to be involved.

I think what we need to do is get a sense of who will be involved, as was the case with the Nunavut leaders conference but we also need to have a plan of action and part of that will be completed, as I indicated, at the end of April. We're looking at a potential education leadership meeting taking place in May of this year. That will depend on whether or not we can get all the parties together, ensuring all parties are happy and have the time and ability to participate. We will set a date after April 31st and try to work around that. I'm not sure if there's anything else I can offer at this particular juncture.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Well, I would just like to say I'm encouraged by the Minister's response. I think that there's a sense of urgency on the part of the people planning for Nunavut. I'm sure the Minister has sensed that. I know he was able to attend the meeting last year in the Keewatin, for which we were grateful. I would just like to say, in closing, that I'm fairly confident that the participants of that meeting wanted to get together again before the summer. May would be soon enough, so I'm pleased with that response and I was pleased with the senior participation of the department at that meeting. We'll look forward to carrying on that work. I'll set this issue aside for now.

But there's one other thing I would like to say. I don't know what reorganization would be required on the Minister's part to name a senior official or to create an ADM position, but I think it would be very useful if all of those various agencies -- and there's a lot of them with a lot of money -- had one window through which they could interact with the government, one individual.

Mr. Chairman, if I may, I have some other questions relating to the college. None of this will surprise the Minister, I'm sure. I would like to ask about trades training. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, was direction given by the former president of Arctic College and is the direction still in place, that all credited trades apprenticeship training that takes place in the Northwest Territories shall take place at the magnificent facilities of the trades complex in Thebacha campus of Aurora College? Is that the direction; that that is where people should go, if they're taking this training in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The general direction that was given was first to divide the college into two colleges. Secondly, it was to maintain the programs that were in existence in the locations where they were located. Thirdly, there was a need for the development of a college development strategy that would outline the general direction that each college would take, of which trades in Nunavut would be one of those components. So in that sense, we need a plan of action as to which direction we were going, then from that would stem the whole issue of the investment decisions that needed to take place so we could incorporate the general strategy and direction that was being undertaken or being given and received from the plan. That's the direction in which we were going.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Just to be very specific, Mr. Chairman, is the trades complex in Thebacha the designated trades training institution in the territories right now? The only one? Is that correct?

Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, yes. It's the only location at this particular time that has the equipment to deliver the courses. One component that the honourable Member should be aware of is the strategy of the college may indicate a need to move in the trades area. The next thing is to develop an operational component that deals with the investment decisions as to how we implement the general trades programs in Nunavut Arctic College. Once we know that, then we can make our long-term plans to coincide with those kinds of decisions. That includes the matter of assessing what we're doing in Aurora College at Thebacha Campus.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

I've given some notice of this question to the Minister. For this territorial facility, what proportion of students are attending that facility from the regions of the Nunavut Arctic College?

Mr. Nerysoo.

I can give you the statistics, Mr. Chairman, for 1993-94, and I think it will be a reflection of the general amount. It may vary depending on how many we have. I think the only difference would be a bit higher numbers in the west.

In 1993-94, the amounts were 70 apprentices from Nunavut and 78 apprentices in the west. That was the number.

How about the success rates of the students from Nunavut? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could back as far as 1990-91 and then come forward to 1993-94, I think it would give you a reflection. In 1990-91, it was 67 per cent; in 1991-92, it was 61 per cent; 1992-93, it was 72 per cent; and, 1993-94 it was 62 per cent.

Thank you very much, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister, it looks like there's a one-third attrition rate, roughly. Are those acceptable rates of success for those students? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's not unusual, Mr. Chairman, for apprenticeships. Generally speaking, that seems to be the national trend; about 30 per cent loss in apprenticeships. Actually, it's about 30 to 50 per cent.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I fully understand, especially with some trades and especially with the more advanced years of trades training you do need fairly sophisticated equipment, like welding equipment, like electrical. But in almost all of our communities, certainly our larger communities, we have excellent shops in place in fields like carpentry, mechanical, automotive. We have excellent basic facilities. It seems to me that, even without establishing sophisticated equipment, if the will was there that we could offer at least trades training in the initial years in communities closer to home for those Nunavut students. I would submit that experience with the teacher education program and other programs that have been repatriated closer to home is that your success rates would only improve.

I would like to ask the Minister, what plans are in this budget that is before us to allow trades training to take place in Nunavut, especially in the early years without sophisticated equipment being required, using resources that are already in hand in our communities: housing association warehouses and shops, those sorts of creative approaches that have been the way the college at Smith developed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so there's no confusion about our position, I want to at least be able to ensure that we have a capacity to deliver educational programming at the community level. There are some things that we're already doing that allow for the pre-trades training. I think the building and learning initiative that we've undertaken in the community, which includes the matter of actually formal education, is something that I think we have been very successful at, along with Public Works and Services and the Housing Corporation. So in that sense, I think we have an ability to move in that direction.

I think the problem that seems to arise around this whole issue of trades training -- and I think the Member has pointed it out -- is simply there seems to be a pure debate on the issue of facilities, and not necessarily how we might be able to improve the programs and services at the community level. I think you've highlighted that and said there are other ways we can do it. It's our view that we can do those kinds of things. There's the possibility of module-type training opportunities; the issue of moving instructors from one community to another community on a rotational basis; different types of instruction, whether or not it's heavy equipment or whether or not it's plumbing, whether or not it's home maintenance; whatever it is, I think we have that opportunity.

The debate sometimes gets bogged down purely in the issue of facilities. My concern would be if we are to worry about facilities in order for us to deliver programs, then we would not be offered a lot of adult programs in our communities. In other words, that would have been the basis of our argument. So I think the honourable Member has pointed out an issue that, if we could sit down with the Nunavut education leadership and the Nunavut Arctic College and see that there are opportunities in the short term that can provide for these training opportunities in the Nunavut communities. I think we can solve the problem.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree that it is not the facilities that are important, it is creating training opportunities using what is already in place. I would like to ask the Minister...And I believe the Minister has power under the appropriate legislation to provide not only leadership but, if necessary, direction to the college boards flowing from advice given by this Assembly and by Nunavut education leaders and others who have a stake in education.

I would like to ask the Minister if he is prepared to initiate discussions with the college boards to take steps to meet what I understand is a clear priority of the Nunavut Arctic College board -- and I know the new board has only met once, but they have already written the Minister and said trades is a priority, understand -- is the Minister prepared to provide leadership, get the boards together and look for constructive solutions?

I don't care whether PYs and dollars are transferred or seconded, whatever the device is, but I would like to see trades training starting closer to home, in Nunavut. Now that we have a separate college and now that the Thebacha College no longer has the mandate to serve the whole Northwest Territories. And I suspect, as the heavy equipment program has done in taking the program to the people, the good people at Thebacha College and in the Aurora board would be open to making those person years available to students in Nunavut who want to take their training closer to home. Will the Minister initiate meetings towards that end? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so that Members know, I have already initiated the issue of meeting with the boards. I have sent a letter to them indicating that I wanted to have a discussion with departmental officials and with the board to discuss first of all, the strategic plans that they have submitted. And secondly, to try to address the issue of general programming and services that would be offered including the whole matter of investments and innovative methods by which we could provide programming and services to both Aurora College and Nunavut Arctic College. That meeting is being planned for mid-April

.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

We will eagerly look forward to the results of that meeting and positive reports from the Minister at the next session of the Legislature, if not before. Am I correct that the Minister, in addition to his good offices, does have the authority to provide policy direction to the boards to accomplish worthwhile agreed-upon goals like the one that I am discussion this afternoon? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, and once we have an indication of the general direction and we are satisfied that the general strategies that have been proposed are complementary and supportive, we will address the issues that have been raised. I am hoping that the strategic plans will address the concern. In fact, in my view, because of the letters that I have received from the chair of the Nunavut Arctic College, I think that some of these issues will be resolved at the joint meeting, because the boards are jointly meeting. They have resolved a number of the other financial issues and it is my view that they will probably address this whole issue and resolve it as well. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, this is positive news. I am looking forward to those developments. I would just like to clarify here, Mr. Chairman; even though I am the Member for Iqaluit, I would like to think that I am looking at the picture of trades training in Nunavut, and I want to mention that I know that a lot of good work has been undertaken under the leadership of Michael Schouldice in Keewatin to develop a trades training plan. There is excellent support in that region. I would hope that would be one of the first places that we would look to in Nunavut to get trades training going. I would like to express my support for that initiative from that region and make it clear that I am not just looking at it from a parochial point of view.

Mr. Chairman, I just have a few more questions on the college, I don't want to monopolize the floor.

(Microphone turned off)...else with their hand up, Mr. Patterson, so proceed please.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn to the environmental technology programs. I made a statement the other day about this. I would really like to ask the Minister, I know this was a college board initiative, but what on earth is going on here with this articulation of programs.

I am getting a clear impression from people I talk to, who care about the environmental technology program that has been established in Nunatta Campus, that they are really feeling that this report and the initiative of the Arctic College is to confine the environmental technology program; to force them to develop courses in common with the renewable resource technology program, which is a different program, serving a different constituency in a different region. And they are feeling quite hamstrung, because what they want to do is respond to the Nunavut land claim, the wildlife management and land management training challenges that are emerging from the implementation of that claim.

Here this study is going on which is saying they are going to now have one common name, they will have 18 out of 22 courses that are going to be in common. What on earth is the motivation for this? Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, shouldn't we be allowing each program to flourish and evolve; one towards the Arctic marine, one toward forestry and in the Delta -- I don't know much about that program but it would seem to me that would be another different constituency that would have different needs, maybe a blend of both, I don't know. But I cannot understand why this is happening and I wonder if the Minister shares my concerns and agrees that the purpose of creating two colleges was to allow programs to evolve to meet the needs of different regions. Why does this study seem to point us in the direction towards cloning our programs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so, Mr. Chairman, there is no confusion, the problem with having given a report of this particular type to my colleagues and management reports generally, is that in some cases we don't always agree with the consultants and we have not made any final conclusions. That is the problem about providing management reports. What we were trying do, basically, is to provide a report and give you an analysis of the information that has been brought forward.

I want to say to the honourable Member that we are examining the report. There have been no final decisions/determinations on the recommendations. The other component is that, based on the information, there is potential for amalgamation of programs or subjects that are being taught that can be similar. Some basic information gathering: research; biology; whatever those basics are, I think they can be consistent. Where it may differ is in the detailed work, whether you are in marine biology or in boreal forests. So in that sense, Mr. Chairman, I still think we have an opportunity to review the final environmental technology program and have a discussion with both Aurora College and Nunavut Arctic College and then conclude our decisions about that program.

The other components are one, whether or not there are certificates for that program and two, whether it is a diploma program. Some provide for certificates maybe after one year and a diploma after two years. Those are the kinds of things we have to consider. No final decisions have been made.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, there was to have been a joint articulation committee established according to the consultant's recommendations. I understand that Nunatta Campus representatives have withdrawn from this committee

and I would like to ask about the status of the committee, especially if half the participants have withdrawn.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear on the status of that situation. It is generally an internal matter. I will revisit that matter when I meet with the boards and ask them to clarify whether or not that issue has been resolved and maybe make some recommendations as to how it may be resolved.

Thank you. Before I recognize Mr. Patterson again, is there anybody else who would like to get in on this item, culture and careers, total O and M, $70.93 million? Okay, Mr. Patterson, carry on.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. In that point, I think I've made my views clear, I hope they will be considered, and I'll leave it at that. My feeling is that the articulation committee is not working and there are good reasons for that. Mr. Chairman, in response to written questions that I asked, I was very pleased to get the Minister's response about the levels of funding which would be available for the environmental technology training program. In the written response he said, referring to the RRTP program at Thebacha Campus and the environmental technology program at Nunatta Campus: "For 1995-96, an estimated $340,000 is allocated to each college to support this program. This includes funding for three positions. As well, college east receives an additional sum as a result of cost differential." I guess that is now Nunavut Arctic College, I should correct myself.

I was quoting from the written response, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to say that I was pleased with this response. Am I correct that sum mentioned in the Minister's return to written question represents an increase in funding over previous years? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you. I would like to ask Mr. Gerein to respond to that question.

Mr. Gerein.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What is reflected, Mr. Chairman, in the return the honourable Minister made was the actual allocations that would be attributed to this program as base funding through the college funding allocation program. The amount that the college actually chooses to spend on a program is a decision by the board. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Patterson.

Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess that explains, perhaps, why I have different information about what was actually spent. For example, the Avery Cooper consultant's report on the review of these programs states on page (i) that in 1993-94, RRTP had a budget of $406,000 and spent $475,000 and the ETP program had a budget of $293,000 and spent $264,000. My information about 1994-95 is that the budgets were $388,000 and $206,000 respectively for RRTP and ETP. What I'm understanding from the Minister is the sums available, as far as the department is concerned, are $340,000. Okay. I would like to ask, then, what is the additional amount referred to as "an additional sum as a result of cost differential?"

Mr. Nerysoo.

We don't have the exact figures. Maybe I could come back at another time and respond to the Member with a written response.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Patterson? Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the same response, there was information that the Nunavut College will have 12 positions and about $1.5 million for student support services and the Aurora College will receive approximately $2.2 million and funding for 18 positions. Could I get an explanation as to why there seems to be quite different allocations for each college in the area of student support services? Thank you.

Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The differences are based on the formula. I believe the amount is about 45 per cent and 55 per cent and it is also a reflection of the total student population; in other words, the total amounts.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the college funding allocation system is the name of that formula, I think. Am I correct that that formula does not actually take into account person years but rather it is a formula for allocating dollars?

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that's correct. In fact, the honourable Member will know that that is the formula we generally follow for the division of resources for school boards as well. It's the same approach and they determine the allocation of those resources to the programs, campuses, and adult centres.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I understand there are about 250 nursing jobs in Nunavut. We only have, I believe, 10 students in the nursing training program offered out of Yellowknife from Nunavut. I would like to ask the Minister whether he believes that perhaps in future, nursing training could be offered in Nunavut to help target northern residents taking some of those 250 jobs. It's a tremendous opportunity I would think, a tremendous

employment opportunity for Nunavut residents. We're only attracting 10 students to the Yellowknife program; wouldn't we have more success getting more students if we offered a program in Nunavut? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Generally speaking, I would say that everyone would probably agree that if it's possible to deliver the program then we would be able to do it. However, fiscally, we have to deal with the whole issue of priority occupations and I think the one right now that is a serious concern and a priority in Nunavut Arctic College seems to be the trades. We have to focus, at least initially, on that particular matter.

The other thing that we should be cognizant of is the labour market requirements because sometimes we could get into training programs that do not respond to labour market situations. The honourable Member has pointed out one where jobs could be made available, and I'm not going to say that we're not going to respond but I think our experience over the past several years will give us some indication as to how we might be able to do a better job in responding to the Nunavut client. Whether or not it's an issue of creating another program, whether or not it's just simply an access year or whether or not it's a matter of retaining the program here in Yellowknife and, again, doing what we've done in other programs; that is, molded to respond to the needs of the Nunavut communities. That's an issue that needs to be reviewed in the context of our college strategy. The other thing that I pointed out earlier is that we should not lose sight of the potential for creating programs of excellence in each college and, for that matter, in each campus if that's possible. I think there is some expertise that could be better left in one particular location and have people move to those programs. That has to be considered.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Is the Minister aware that the Baffin health board is working with the Dalhousie outpost nursing program to develop a nursing training capacity in the Baffin? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can say that we are aware of it but I would also be cautious in terms of -- and my honourable colleague has made mention of this a number of times -- if we have the expertise and we've had the experience in Arctic College delivering programs, it just doesn't make sense for us to introduce a new institution in the process. If we have the program available, it might be better for us to look at the expansion of the program rather than introducing a new one. We could redesign it so that it meets the needs of the client that we have to serve. I think the northern experience is a good one to consider.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Well, I couldn't agree with the Minister's sentiments more and I think that unless there is a program designed or the program is modified, then you're going to have organizations like Dalhousie and the Baffin health board saying well, we'll have to do it ourselves. I would strongly recommend that the Minister get a step ahead of the process and encourage the Arctic College to reach out to meet these needs. He's answered my question as I'd hoped.

Mr. Chairman, when I talk to people from the Arctic College in Nunavut, they tell me that they're facing financial restraint and cutbacks and they're going to have to make do with less funding than last year. I'd like to ask the Minister, in a global sense, looking at his budget, have the K-12 programs and the school programs been given more of a priority than college funding as far as growth is concerned in this budget? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I can't say that. I can say to the Members that there are priority programs in which we've added more resources. There have been reductions, you might say, in the whole area of administration. The overall increase in our budget generally is about $4. For instance, in the case of SFA, it's $3 million. It really depends on how people view this. The other component that is still an unknown factor is the whole issue of social assistance and the use of those resources for post-secondary education. The other thing is the, I believe, $2 million into northern skill development, those are the kinds of things if you start reviewing them, whether or not there's a reduction, an overall increase in the actual assistance to students and therefore better access for students because those dollars are also used for paying for the cost of programs and services that are being offered at the college. That is the kind of stuff that, unless you do an overall picture, becomes very difficult.

I think some of the concerns that we all have is really the uncertainty right now about what will happen with regard to income support programs across the country. I'm the Minister responsible for the general discussions that will go on with the federal government and I'm hoping that we can meet very shortly with Mr. Axworthy so that we can have these general discussions so that we get some sense of security about those resources.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Before I recognize Mr. Patterson again, is there any other Member who would like to get in on comments or questions on culture and careers, total O and M, $70.93 million? Okay, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't be much longer. Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned investing in people and I know there's a healthy $6 million budgeted in these main estimates for us. I wish him and his officials every success. I suspect that weaning off welfare is going to be a real tough challenge because looking at the program in my constituency -- and there's been an excellent instructor located to run that program and I have great confidence in the instructor -- but looking at the students I see that they bring with them to class all kinds of problems that are beyond the control of the instructor. Whether it's family violence, other

personal needs -- they're often single parents; sometimes there are personal problems including alcohol and drug treatment that are getting in the way of training for employment.

I would like to ask the Minister, I know that the department boldly established a number of programs this year in a number of communities. I think it was done, I would say, boldly, but some might say in a rush. Have you had a chance to assess yet how these programs are working? How has the attrition rate been? Have you done an evaluation? Have you got some successes where you can say we've got some people now who are motivated or who are on their way out of the cycle? I would just like to get a feeling from the Minister. We're putting a lot of money into this, everyone wants it to work, I want it to work, but is it going to work? What's the post-mortem on the money you've spent this current fiscal year? Thank you.

Thanks, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have not concluded any assessments of those projects that are being funded at this particular juncture. Just so the honourable Member is aware, we have not spent as much money as probably we would have liked to in as many communities as possible. What we are finding probably is that we still need to do a lot of work with our communities and advise them about the program and opportunities, and to make recommendations of some of the initiatives that might be considered.

I can say that in one particular case, in Hay River the response to the adult training component is excellent in terms of its results. In fact, Mr. Chairman, interestingly, they've sent me some letters thanking me for the initiative that I've undertaken and, in fact, students are recommending that we continue with the initiative.

I think where we are starting to see returns on investments is in the whole area of building and learning. I think there we see people who are actually in the trades area actually involved in government capital project and us, as a government, using those monies to train people in the trades helper area, I think we are seeing the results now. There are some situations where I can probably point to a community like Aklavik where we started out with a suggestion of about seven, and we ended up with 17 people in the project. Coppermine was successful. So we're now starting to see certification of individuals who are older in some cases, have less education but are either going to school or maintaining their interests in the trades.

I can't give a conclusive indication to the honourable Member on the investing in people; I think that's going to take us some time, particularly since we don't have as many of the communities as we would like to have involved in that. But it really focuses on things like skill development, life skills, adult basic education. Once we get people in those areas, I think you'll see them taking on other opportunities.

Thanks, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Chairman, one of the problems that I saw when I looked at the investing in people program in my community was that where students had personal needs that had to be addressed -- such as counselling, such as child care problems, sometimes things as simple as finding a way to get to school and lacking the funds for transportation, that sort of thing -- they went to the local officials in the Department of Health and Social Services who said, basically, we haven't time to give the one-on-one counselling and support that's sometimes required to give these people in school. We don't have the mandate, we're busy with our regular caseload, and there didn't seem to be a coordinated approach between the two departments -- I'm referring to Health and Social Services and the college and the Department of ECE.

I know Health and Social Services is undergoing changes, amalgamating and it's no surprise to me that they have other things on their mind right now. I would like to ask the Minister if he agrees that personal support and support from Health and Social Services and the resources of that department may be critical with many of these students, to allow them to cope with the added demands of going to school, looking after their children, surviving in this program, and whether or not the department will look at better linkages with Health and Social Services so these needs can be addressed to keep these people in school. Thank you.

Thanks, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think the honourable Member has highlighted the whole reason why we had to go to pilot initiatives initially, because we needed to find out those kinds of concerns and problems that the students would encounter. I want to confirm that there is a need for us to address those personal needs of the students and ensure that there's consistency in program service delivery, whether it's our department or whether it's Health and Social Services in conjunction with our department, or whether or not we work collectively with the boards and Nunavut Arctic College, as well. I think there has to be that cooperation. So, I have to agree with the honourable Member.

Hopefully, as a result of the comments that have been made and some of the concerns that will be raised, we can design our program to respond to those concerns that the honourable Member has raised.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

(Microphone turned off)...Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister -- I guess it's a few days until April 1st -- are your officials going to start delivering welfare on April 1st? The money is being transferred, I understand, for social assistance. Is this department now going to deliver welfare or, if not, when? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, if I could ask Mr. Gerein to give you the detail because there are still some things that will be cooperatively delivered and he can give you the detail as the process goes on.

Thanks very much. Mr. Gerein.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have split the actual transfer of program delivery into a couple of phases. We're initially going to be taking over the program management and accountability at the headquarters and regional levels effective April 1st. However, at the community level we will maintain the current delivery systems and individuals who are there in order that we have no reduction in client service for this coming year.

What we will be doing concurrently is running, I believe, 10 or 11 pilot projects in communities where we look at different delivery agents actually providing social assistance as income support, freeing up the social workers in those particular communities to address individual and family social counselling and other needs. So we're trying to look at a number of different models in 11 or 12 communities in terms of how we deliver social services better. And in those communities where we don't have these models, the social workers will continue to deliver social assistance but, in this case, be supported by the department staff at the regional and headquarters levels. Thank you.

Thanks, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Patterson.

Just one final question, Mr. Chairman, and it doesn't have to be answered right away. I was intrigued by the Minister's explanation of why the department says the environmental technology program at Nunatta Campus was allocated $340,000 in funding to the college but I'm told that they spent much less than that. I guess that has prompted me to ask the Minister whether he can provide a breakdown. I know on page 15-20 we have $28 million, and the $12 million for Nunavut is divided into five categories. Would the Minister be willing to give more detail on how this is broken down, particularly the funding for base operations and programs? I would be very interested in getting that information because I would like to know why some programs seem to be getting less money from the college than is allocated for those programs by the department.

Perhaps these figures would help us determine how the college sets its own priorities and hold them accountable if they're not meeting the priorities of this House. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the concern the honourable Member raises is the very reason we wanted to establish an allocation system so we can ensure there is some accountability, including the tasks identified in our department, so there is accounting for priorities being set and so it is also responding to the general direction we want it to go as a department. Some priorities have to be established.

Now, what I will do is include all of those components, including a breakdown of programs and services being delivered by Nunavut Arctic College and the investments being made, as part of the information that I will write him.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Is there anyone else who would like to

make comments on culture and careers, on page 15-13, total O and M, $70.930 million? Are we concluded that item?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Education Development

Page 15-14, education development. Total O and M, $146.909 million. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Nerysoo.

First of all with forced growth, there is an increase of $281,000. There is an increase in the formula to address the high incidence matter of $930,000. Generally speaking, that's based, I believe, on a formula basis. I would like to ask Mr. Gerein to respond specifically on the matter of the formula.

Mr. Gerein.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is based on a formula which we can provide to the Member. What it does is basically adjusts the number of units for special needs assistance -- we still call it that in our own formula -- and we're changing it from 5.5 person years to 6.75 person years per 1,000 students, which results in the increases. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Dent.