This is page numbers 643 - 675 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo, Hon. Silas Arngna'naaq, Mr. Ballantyne, Hon. Nellie Cournoyea, Mr. Dent, Hon. Samuel Gargan, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Lewis, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Ms. Mike, Hon. Don Morin, Hon. Richard Nerysoo, Hon. Kelvin Ng, Mr. Ningark, Mr. Patterson, Hon. John Pollard, Mr. Pudluk, Hon. John Todd, Mr. Whitford, Mr. Zoe

---Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

March 27th, 1995

Page 643

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. The House will come to order. Good afternoon.

Speaker's Ruling

I would like to provide the House with my ruling on the point of order raised on March 27th by the Member for Thebacha, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

The Member's point of order was that the Member for Iqaluit, in comments he made on March 10th, had used the word "irresponsibly" which Mrs. Marie-Jewell felt was unparliamentary and implied allegations against her. I would like to repeat the exact words that were used by Mr. Patterson as they are contained on page 1371 of unedited Hansard, and I quote:

"But, Mr. Speaker, in my view, if Members are allowed to act irresponsibly and table unsigned documents which may be furnished to Members for malicious or political purposes, then this is, in fact, an abuse of the privileges we enjoy as Members. And, it will diminish the reputation of this Assembly."

I note with a bit of disappointment that Mrs. Marie-Jewell, in making comments on the point of order, indicated, and I quote, "Not only should I request an apology from Mr. Patterson, which I won't..." I would have hoped that all Members would have sufficient respect for each other and that Mrs. Marie-Jewell would have given the Member the benefit of the doubt and at least offered him the opportunity to apologize if he felt he had used unparliamentary language. However, that was not to be the case, therefore, I am required to rule on the point of order.

I note that Beauchesne's 6th edition provides in citation 489, and I quote:

"Since 1958, it has been ruled unparliamentary to use the following expressions:

- Irresponsible Members, Debates, May 8, 1969, page 8476; and,

- Irresponsible reply, Debates, December 5, 1962, page 2346."

In reviewing the point of order, I referred back to the actual House of Commons debates of 1962 and 1969, in which the two incidents I mentioned were ruled upon. I note that in the 1962 debates, the words "irresponsible reply" were used to describe a response made by then Prime Minister, Mr. Diefenbaker, and in the 1969 case the words "irresponsible Members" were used to describe the actions of Members generally and one Member in particular. I would like to quote from Beauchesne's citation 486(1):

"It is impossible to lay down any specific rules in regard to injurious reflections uttered in debate against particular Members, or to declare beforehand what expressions are or are not contrary to order; much depends upon the tone and manner, and intention, of the person speaking; sometimes upon the person to whom the words are addressed, as, whether that person is a public officer, or a private Member not in office, or whether the words are meant to be applied to public conduct or to private character; and sometimes upon the degree of provocation, which the Member speaking had received from the person alluded to; and all these considerations must be attended to at the moment, as they are infinitely various and cannot possibly be foreseen in such a manner that precise rules can be adopted with respect to them."

Under the same citation, subparagraph (3) is also appropriate to bring to the Member's attention:

"3"There are few words that have been judged to be unparliamentary consistently, and any list of unparliamentary words is only a compilation of words that at some time have been found to cause disorder in the House."

I have considered the context in which the apparently offensive words were used and considered the comments of Mr. Patterson in speaking to the point of order. As with any point of order and in particular when unparliamentary language is the issue, you have to consider the tone and manner and the intention of the person speaking. I note that Mr. Patterson did preface his reference to Members with the word "if". I considered Mr. Patterson's submission of yesterday's date to be sufficient to explain that his intention was not to refer to any specific action undertaken by a specific Member. The context within which his comments were made dealt with a point of order that focused on the rules and practices of permitting unsigned letters to be tabled in the House. In keeping with the precedent outlined in Beauchesne's, I have considered the tone, manner and intention of the Member for Iqaluit when making his comments.

When there is no clear breach or order, I feel it is important to accept the word of a Member. Therefore, I rule that the words uttered are not unparliamentary and that the Member for Thebacha does not have a point of order.

---Applause

Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statement. Mr. Ng.

Minister's Statement 47-12(7): Fair Play Award
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 644

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Mr. Speaker, as Members are aware from earlier Members' statements in this House, today is a proud day for the Kevin Koe junior mens curling team, their families and friends.

This evening in Toronto Kevin Koe, his brother, Jamie, and Mark and Kevin Whitehead, along with their coach George Gibson, will be recognized with the 1994 fair play in sport award.

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Sport Council annually recognizes outstanding achievements in sport at the Canadian sport awards dinner. In addition to honouring Canada's greatest male and female athletes, the team of the year and lifetime contributions to sport, the council also recognizes fair play in sport.

Fair Play Canada in conjunction with the Canadian Sport Council will be awarding the national fair play award for the athlete/team category for 1994 to the members of the Northwest Territories 1994 junior men's curling team.

Fair Play Canada has made arrangements for all members of the team to attend the awards dinner and the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs has arranged that their coach, George Gibson, will also attend. TSN will be filming the 1995 Canadian sport awards dinner for a one-hour special to air on TSN in April.

I would like to congratulate these four young men and their coach for exemplifying the attitudes and behaviour associated with good sportsmanship. During the final game of the 1994 Pepsi Junior Men's Championship in Truro, Nova Scotia, a controversial ruling awarded the game to the Alberta team. On national television and under the strain of facing a heartbreaking loss, the NWT team accepted the ruling with class and dignity and showed no anger or frustration. These young men's commitment to the principles of fair play was a proud moment for all of us. Not only did they show respect for the rules, their teammates and their opponents, but they respected, without question, the decision of the officials. Mr. Speaker, there can be no clearer demonstration of good sportsmanship than this.

I am sure all Members will join me in congratulating Kevin and Jamie Koe, Mark and Kevin Whitehead and their coach, George Gibson, for representing the NWT with distinction and for the honour of receiving the 1994 national fair play award. Thank you.

---Applause

Minister's Statement 47-12(7): Fair Play Award
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 644

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 2, Ministers' statement. Mr. Nerysoo.

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last November, this Assembly passed the Public Colleges Act, which directed the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to establish two colleges; one located in the western Northwest Territories, and one located in the eastern Arctic. I am pleased to announce that these two institutions were established on January 1st of this year. I would like to take this opportunity to bring Members up to date on this initiative.

During the last session of this Assembly, I indicated that I would work with the college board of governors to identify names for our two new public colleges. Since that time, there has been considerable consultation across the north to identify college names. Throughout the fall, Mr. Speaker, the Arctic College board actively solicited recommendations for names for the two new colleges.

They undertook advertising and direct consultation with communities, students and staff as well as a number of other groups and organizations. As a result of their work, I received a list of three possible names for each college.

Selecting a name for a college is an important decision. The name should reflect the communities it serves, it should be distinctive and it should be a name of which we can all be proud as the institution grows and develops. In making a decision on this matter, I have also been guided by the comments and recommendations of the Members of this Assembly. In the past few months, I have received comments from a number of Members indicating their preferences.

I am pleased to announce today that the college serving the eastern Arctic will be known as Nunavut Arctic College. The college in the west will be named Aurora College.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, investment in adult and post-secondary education is a key element of my department's strategic plan, and the establishment of two colleges is part of the overall strategy to strengthen adult and post-secondary education across the north.

With two colleges it will be possible to better focus on community needs, particularly as we move towards division of the Northwest Territories.

Nunavut Arctic College and Aurora College will continue to operate three campuses and a network of community learning centres. As well, science and technology activities previously carried out by the Science Institute have now been consolidated within the colleges. The colleges will include new offices to guide science and technology activities and to manage the four territorial research centres.

The new colleges are currently finalizing corporate plans which reflect the department's strategic plan and which will guide activities over the next five years.

Nunavut Arctic College and Aurora College replace Arctic College, but they will build on Arctic College's success. Since 1988, when Arctic College was incorporated, considerable progress has been made in offering additional college programs to the people of the Northwest Territories. Over this past year, Arctic College experienced 1,500 full-time and more than 9,000 part-time registrations.

Mr. Speaker, my department and the two colleges are committed to providing northerners with improved access to high-quality programs, which are designed to address their needs and are delivered close to home. The establishment of two colleges is an important step towards this goal and will help prepare northern residents for the division of the Northwest Territories in 1999.

I would like to ask my colleagues to join me in congratulating Nunavut Arctic College and Aurora College on their establishment and to wish them every success in meeting the educational and training challenges of the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 2, Ministers' statement. Mr. Kakfwi.

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, this government has had concerns with the proposed new gun control legislation as recently tabled by the federal government. We have had concerns about this proposed gun legislation from the time of the introduction of the federal government's action plan in November 1994.

After reviewing the intentions stated in the consultative package, we expressed our concerns relating to the requirement to obtain a firearms licence and the registration of all firearms, at that time, to the federal Minister of Justice by letter and in person. Other provincial governments and the Yukon territory also stated their concerns on this matter to the federal Minister during a meeting held in Victoria, British Columbia in January of this year. Bill C-68, An Act Respecting Firearms and Other Weapons which includes amendments to the Criminal Code and a new Firearms Act was introduced by the federal Minister of Justice on the 14th of February of this year. A review of this bill added additional concerns as to the impact this legislation will have.

The controls and conditions that are placed on the lending, selling and giving of firearms as well as the storage of the same, we believe, obstruct the traditional lifestyle of the Dene, the Metis and the Inuit people. Penalties which will occur if individuals are convicted of firearms offences are severe and may result in a term of imprisonment. Once again, I have stated my concerns relating to Bill C-68 to the federal Minister by letter. Issues surrounding this legislation are real and the proposed gun controls will have a negative impact on the freedom to fulfil a traditional lifestyle.

We support several aspects of the proposed legislation, for example: the sections dealing with the smuggling of firearms; the use of a firearm in the commission of an offence; restriction on handguns; and, a ban on military assault weapons are all recognized as required changes. However, the negative impact that will result from the concerns we have registered will outweigh the importance of these changes. We stated our concerns on the restrictions placed on the purchasing and transportation of ammunition to the federal Minister of Justice. These concerns have since been addressed by the federal government through changes to allow for purchasing flexibility.

In addition, we expressed concerns over the subject matter of the Canadian firearms safety course as being too complicated and overly technical and called for flexibility in the delivery of the course. As a result, the federal government is now working with our officials in the Department of Justice and the Department of Renewable Resources to make appropriate modifications. The proclamation date of the course will be deferred to January 1, 1996 in order to allow for the required changes to the course content. As a result of negotiations on the part of the Department of Justice, the federal government has accepted financial responsibility for the delivery and maintenance of the Canadian firearms safety course.

The federal Department of Justice has also assigned members of the firearms task force to consult with aboriginal and Inuit groups across Canada. The task force members will be visiting a number of communities in the Northwest Territories during the month of April 1995. These are positive things that have happened as a result of our intervention and we are pleased with the corrective action taken to date. However, the issues surrounding firearms registration and the penalties for firearm offenses are still outstanding. To deal with these issues, we have established a Caucus Subcommittee on Bill C-68. This committee is actively reviewing the concerns relating to gun control and taking steps to inform the public and community leader in a way which answers the questions which are most frequently asked. This committee will also make a presentation to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that are reviewing the proposed legislation.

Mr. Speaker, the impact that this proposed new gun control legislation will have on the people of the north should not be trivialized, nor should they be underestimated. It's my intention to continue to take steps necessary to see that the traditional ways of the Dene, the Metis and the Inuit people are respected and taken into full consideration by the federal government. I believe that our concerns will be heard and dealt with appropriately. Thank you.

---Applause

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Ms. Cournoyea.

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, during the past year, the federal and territorial governments have been negotiating an out- of-court settlement for the health care billings dispute. The dispute arose over the federal government's refusal to pay territorial claims for hospital services provided to status Indians and Inuit. Court action was taken against the federal government in December of 1992, after extensive efforts to resolve the dispute failed. The court

action sought $79 million from the federal government for outstanding hospital claims.

Mr. Speaker, over the past six months, the terms of an acceptable settlement have been reached on the dispute over billings for the period 1986-87 to 1991-92. The terms of settlement also contain provisions which relate to the period 1992 to 1995, and a contribution agreement for the next three fiscal years.

Mr. Speaker, the terms of settlement make the following financial arrangements:

- A one-time payment of $24 million in settlement of claims;

- A contribution agreement for 1994-95 with payment of up to $33.5 million for hospital and physician services to NWT status Indians and Inuit;

- A three-year contribution agreement, including an option for a one-year extension, with payments escalated from 1994-95 by six per cent, three per cent and three per cent in the first, second and third years of the agreement; and,

- At the conclusion of the third or fourth year, the escalated amount will be added to the gross expenditure base of the territorial government and increased thereafter under the terms of the formula financing agreement.

The agreement also includes provisions which are important for the territorial government, status and aboriginal residents and Nunavut. More specifically:

- The terms of settlement cannot be used to impede discussions surrounding the administration and financing of health services in the two new territories created by division;

- The terms cannot be used to restrict access by the government to federal assistance to help in dealing with emergencies;

- The terms cannot be used to restrict access by the government or aboriginal residents to national health programs; and,

- The terms cannot be interpreted to prejudice treaty or aboriginal rights, or future self-government arrangements.

Mr. Speaker, because this dispute concerned the delivery of health care services by the GNWT to status Indians and Inuit, discussions with representatives of aboriginal organizations were initiated when the territorial government decided to take the federal government to court.

Aboriginal organizations in the Northwest Territories were advised in writing on March 15th that we were close to settling out of court and were provided with the terms of settlement for the health care billings dispute. The letter was also provided to all health boards, our Members of Parliament and copies were sent to MLAs. Follow-up phone calls by myself and the Minister of Finance were arranged to provide additional details and answer questions. No major concerns or opposition to the settlement were raised during the discussions. As a result, I have signed the terms of settlement for the health care billings dispute, as well as contribution agreements for 1994-95 and the period 1995-96 to 1997-98.

Mr. Speaker, the territorial government has negotiated the best possible terms of settlement, especially given the federal government's current and ongoing deficit and debt situation.

However, even though the package calls for increases in federal contributions for the next three years, measures will be required to make the best possible use of resources available, particularly in view of future federal cutbacks to territorial transfer payments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Todd.

Kivalliq Cup And Opening Of Arena In Whale Cove
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 646

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This past weekend, the community of Whale Cove hosted the annual Kivalliq Cup. This hockey tournament brings together teams from all the Keewatin communities and is certainly the highlight of the hockey season in the Keewatin.

This year the tournament was also tied with another exciting event. We were honoured to have the Honourable Kelvin Ng, Minister of MACA, in attendance to officially open the new Peter Ongashimna arena.

Mr. Speaker, the people of Whale Cove wanted me to thank the Minister personally for travelling to their community for this event, for taking the time to attend a number of meetings over the course of the weekend.

Mr. Speaker, this year's tournament was a rousing success. With the teams from all communities, the referees, volunteers and fans from all the other six communities in the region, the population of Whale Cove, normally around 300, more than doubled this past weekend.

To the credit of the organizers, despite the number of people involved, the tournament went off with barely a hitch. The hockey was exciting and excellent, and I was especially pleased to see that the Whale Cove team performed so well.

Mr. Speaker, all in all it was a great weekend. All the credit for handling the logistics of this event should go to the mayor of Whale Cove, Mr. Percy Kabloona, the hamlet council, the hamlet staff and the people of Whale Cove who opened their arms to visitors of all communities. I would especially like to thank the regional staff of MACA for assisting with all the arrangements. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Kivalliq Cup And Opening Of Arena In Whale Cove
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 646

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Dent.

Zero Tolerance For Violence
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 646

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi made a statement which he

indicated was to address an issue I raised last November about our declaration of zero tolerance for violence. Today I would like to respond to that statement.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister, yesterday, agreed with my premise that a declaration is not enough. People expect, quite rightly, to see action to back up our words. I believe the Minister was correct in his assertion that family violence is a problem all across the country and that we need to change societal attitudes so people start to realize that family violence is a crime.

I agree with the Minister when he says that declarations such as ours are but one element in the process of changing society's views about family violence, and that MLAs should be leaders in that process of change. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Kakfwi also pointed out that Members of this Assembly can do more to send out the message that violence is always unacceptable by introducing a requirement that any Member who is convicted of a violent offence be required to resign their seat.

Since it would appear from that statement that the government is not prepared to introduce such legislation, Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise the House that in the next little while I plan to introduce an amendment to the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act which would force a Member to resign should they be convicted of an offence involving violence against another person. Minister Kakfwi said yesterday that he would support such a measure; I hope all Members of this House will, as well.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister's statement yesterday addressed the concern that has been expressed that we seem to have almost unlimited funds to deal with offenders, while those who have been victimized or those who have been victims often feel further victimized by our legal system and the courts. Mr. Speaker, the holistic approach is a long-term approach. I cannot disagree that ultimately changing the behaviour of offenders so there is less violence and addressing the root causes of violence through the community wellness program is the proper approach. But, as the Minister said yesterday, change is not something that happens over night. While we work to effect such change, how can we in any conscience ignore the victims?

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude by statement.

Zero Tolerance For Violence
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 647

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Conclude your statement, Mr. Dent.

Zero Tolerance For Violence
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 647

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and honourable Members. Mr. Speaker, as the Minister said yesterday, community-based victims' service groups provide a much-needed service. Volunteers and staff with these groups deserve our recognition and our thanks for the good work they do. Mr. Speaker, unless we find more funding for these groups, there will be no one to thank.

These programs should be seen by the government as fundamental partners in the process of eliminating violence in communities. I know the Minister has pointed out that the federal government initiated these programs and has now walked away from them. Mr. Speaker, they were wrong to have done that and that is no excuse for us to do the same. Given the cost-effective service the public gets from these programs for the minimal investment provided by government, we must find a way to keep them going.

Using information from the North of 60 Victim Witness Association, we know that a majority of the clients being served by these programs result from family violence and sexual assault. Volunteers and staff provide crisis intervention, emotional support, information about the judicial system and process, and other assistance to help traumatized people get through the process. The emotional needs of victims completely justify the programs, but, Mr. Speaker, if you want a bottom line reason to support them, don't forget that better prepared and supported victims make better witnesses. That ensures that offenders less often get away with their crimes. Too often, in the absence of support, the victim is again victimized by the adversarial nature of our court system and the perpetrator gets off.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister has, in the past, suggested the government needs to consider whether it has the philosophical requirement to deal with victims of crime. I suggest this question has already been answered. In 1988, in recognition of the United Nations declaration of basic principles of justice for victims of crime, federal, provincial and territorial Ministers responsible for criminal justice signed a document outlining some statements of basic principles of justice for victims of crime. This document was signed on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories, by the then Minister of Justice, the Honourable Michael Ballantyne.

Mr. Speaker, there are 10 principles in this document. I had intended to read them into the record, but that would probably take a considerable amount of time so I will instead table them later on.

But, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that without the victims service programs, the principles that this government has signed to uphold, to respect and provide justice for victims of crime, cannot be met. I continue to urge the Minister of Justice to look for ways to ensure that the existing victims service programs are able to continue and for ways to expand the programs to other communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Zero Tolerance For Violence
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 647

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Allooloo.

GNWT's Recognition Of Aboriginal Languages
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 647

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I rise to extend my gratitude to the government and our participation as they were recognized in our territories. We are the Inuit and the only aboriginal government within Canada and this is something that we have to be proud of as a government. (Translation ends)

I am very proud to be part of this government which recognizes our aboriginal language as one of the official languages of this government. I am also proud that in June 1984 this act came into force, 11 years ago, and was further amended in 1990. I am also very proud that in our education system our kids who are in the communities -- I'm not sure of those in central locations -- could take our aboriginal languages as courses. That does not happen in many other jurisdictions.

But, I am sad to say that our government officials -- directors, deputy ministers -- who are in the positions of decision-making, do not have direction from this government as to what sorts of services should be available, even though there's an act that would obligate our government to do so. It has been 11 years since the act came into force, yet our government does not have the direction it needs to provide their managers in giving out information and also communicating with the public. I am sad to say that that direction is not here yet. I hope in the near future, as was responded to me yesterday from the Premier, that direction to the managers of this government will be given by the Executive Council.

(Translation) I would like to extend my gratitude to the people who worked hard in sustaining aboriginal languages within the territorial government, as well as within other sections of the government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

GNWT's Recognition Of Aboriginal Languages
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 648

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. Item 3, Members' statements. Ms. Mike.

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I have very serious concerns on the new rent scale, which is to be implemented in just a few days.

The scale is based on the theory that high income tenants would be in private homes. To save funds, CMHC is cutting back to free up public housing for those in need. These theories are well intended; however, off the highway system, like in Nunavut level II and III communities, the new rent scale will cause some undue hardship and a lot of headaches for the Cabinet and NWT Housing Corporation because the level II and III communities in Nunavut, Mr. Speaker, do not have a market for private homes.

I realize the Housing Corporation has various programs for home ownership. For example, in Pangnirtung there will be 42 tenants affected, yet this fiscal year there are only 12 applicants approved for home ownership. What other alternatives do the other 30 tenants have, as there is no private home market in this community. Will the NWT Housing Corporation assist these 30 people for home ownership next year? It has been difficult for these high-income earners to get financing from the banks because the lots available in Nunavut communities are only available on leased basis.

Another problem that I have a concern on is in the way the rent scale is based on family disposable income. Many Inuit in level II communities live with the family members not by choice, but because of the shortage of housing in these communities. That is the reality today, Mr. Speaker.

There are real facts that are of concern to many Inuit that are legitimate concerns. Such as, what do you do when a family member refuses to pay the rent and accumulates a debt.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Ms. Mike, your time is up. Ms. Mike.

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The Member for Baffin Centre is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Conclude you statement, Ms. Mike.

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you colleagues. Mr. Speaker, I do not envy the local community housing associations and authorities who are implementing this rent scale on behalf of the NWT Housing Corporation; especially when they are so close to the division of the NWT, where our government will have to work harder in managing our dollars to arrive at a zero deficit by 1999. This rent scale will do the opposite.

I hope that this government will take another good look at some of the real problems that this new rent scale will create in Nunavut. Mr. Speaker, in the next few weeks, I will be asking the honourable Minister responsible during question period. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Kakfwi.

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform Members, the public and members of the media, before Ms. Devine does, that yesterday I approached Ms. Devine inquiring as to whether she was going to play hockey on Friday or not. And that if she was up to the challenge, and if she agreed to play, I would do so as well. She very quickly concluded that I meant to inflict some violence on her...

---Laughter

...and scampered off to the media room. I was sorry for it because that was not the intent. It was only my intention that if I was going to try to play hockey with members of the media and my colleagues, I didn't want her to be sitting in the bleachers furiously scribbling down her observations about my, perhaps, rather futile attempts. At the very least, I would like some comfort in knowing that she would also be on the ice at the same time, trying to skate gracefully amongst her colleagues as well as ours. I wanted the Members to know that because we never know what the good lady decides to put in her columns, but surely I have been there with great regularity. If it should come up, I wanted Members to know the context in which those comments were made to her yesterday. Thank you.

---Applause

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Lewis.

Problem Solving Without Violence
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 649

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is late in the life of this Assembly to begin grappling with the problem of violence and finding some proposal to change people's behaviours. After racking up thousands and thousands of words about what is right, what we should do and so on, it is good to see people suddenly taking an interest in accountability, trying to do something to solve the problem.

I would like to point out that one of the graces of an Assembly like this -- and they exist throughout the world -- is that we try to resolve our problems through reason, argument, and persuasion and so on, but we don't put fists and boots to people if they don't agree with us. So, if we are going to suddenly confine our activities to doing something about what we call family violence, how do you define it? How far are you going to go? As far as I am concerned, if you decide to solve your problems with your boots or your fists, whether it is in a bar, on the streets or in the house, that is not the way to solve problems. I learned that when I was a very young man, especially when you get beaten once or twice.

I would say that the civilized way in which we do business, if we are going to really seriously look at this and really look at the issue of violence, we have to look in totality at the way we solve our problems and not just simply limit it to what may or may not happen inside the walls of somebody's house. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Problem Solving Without Violence
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 649

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 3, Members' statements. Are there any further Members' statements? Mr. Patterson.

Editorial On Federal Gun Control Legislation
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 649

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in a recent column in Nunatsiaq News by my former executive assistant, Marina Devine, and in an editorial in News/North, March 13, 1995, entitled "What's the fuss", MLAs are accused of jumping on a band wagon, of creating hot air over gun control because it is an election year; we are accused of trying to scare community people silly, that they will be jailed for acting as they ordinarily do in loaning guns or storing them in other people's houses.

We are told calm down, the law hasn't yet been passed and that we will have our opportunity to modify the bill through the parliamentary committee or through the team of officials -- some of which, by the way, helped write this bill, I am told -- which are being sent around to aboriginal communities to try to make sure the new law doesn't interfere with treaty and aboriginal hunting rights.

I am upset with these comments and I would like to make a few points in response. I will only speak for myself. I am not running for office again, I am not electioneering on this issue, this is a very serious issue on which I feel very strongly.

---Applause

And, I think it's unfair to accuse MLAs who express strong views on an issue in the fourth year of their mandate of electioneering, whether they're running again or they're not. This issue not only affects aboriginal people but a lot of people who are my constituents who live an outdoor lifestyle.

Let's look at our situation, Mr. Speaker. First of all, the Liberal government has a huge majority. Government Members dominate the parliamentary committee which will review the bill and the Prime Minister, himself, has stated that he will support this measure. Unless we make noise now, and that's about all we can do here in the north, we have very little chance of our concerns being dealt with. We don't have a lot of leverage, especially since both of our MPs for the Northwest Territories are somewhat constrained by being Members of the government party.

Mr. Speaker, I request unanimous consent to make a few other points on this matter. Thank you.

Editorial On Federal Gun Control Legislation
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 649

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The honourable Member for Iqaluit is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Patterson.

Editorial On Federal Gun Control Legislation
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 649

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to outline some of the real problems that the draft bill proposes. First of all, let's look at the requirement that all firearms be registered. We own a tremendous amount of firearms in the Northwest Territories. As this bill is drafted, each and every gun in each and every community, in each and every household, will have to be registered with the RCMP. This will be a nightmare to administer in the Northwest Territories and very costly.

The RCMP are already overwhelmed with paperwork. Our unilingual constituents or constituents whose first language is not English are also cruelly disadvantaged by problems of paperwork like income tax forms and demands which come from the federal government in English and French. And I say to News/North, how patronizing for them to say that the new paperwork regarding ownership will cause some difficulties for people who do not speak English, but News/North assures us people are used to dealing with such problems. How patronizing.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, people who do not meet these provisions as the law is now drafted will be subject to a criminal record; will be charged, not by summary offence, but by indictment; and, will face a minimum penalty of one year in jail for a second offence. I can easily see people who are in trouble with the law having these firearm offences added to the list of charges and, yes, without control of prosecutions we are very vulnerable to inappropriate values and misplaced priorities from the Attorney General for the Northwest Territories in Ottawa.

Right now, Mr. Speaker, as the bill is drafted, a registration card must be with the rifle if a firearm is loaned. I've heard defenders of this legislation compare it to having a licence to drive a car but not having a licence to drive a car is not a criminal offence. Mr. Speaker, these are some of the problems with this bill as it's drafted. I'm concerned that members of the press have not given Members of this Assembly credit for the hard work that has been done -- along, of course, with the Minister -- for progress that has already been made in dealing with issues such as: gun safety training; modifying the legislation in relation to areas such as the purchase of ammunition; and, perhaps, in securing no fees for general hunting licence holders.

We have made some progress in some areas, this should be acknowledged by the press. And now is certainly not the time to let up. I would like to say again that gun control is okay for jurisdictions such as Ontario which perceive it as needed. We don't need it here and I think we should continue to pursue a blanket exemption for the Northwest Territories. It won't work here, it's not needed and I'm going to continue to work on this, along with Members of this House and Members of the subcommittee that has been established. I think it's important to our people and our constituents, whether the press knows that or not. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Editorial On Federal Gun Control Legislation
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 650

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Ballantyne.

Alternatives To Our Criminal Justice System
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 650

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think that all Members of the House got a flyer about "Electronic Monitoring: A British Columbia Success Story." I think the Minister of Justice also got it. Normally unsolicited advertising ends up in my garbage can but this one is really quite interesting and I just wanted to share it with Members who might not have read it.

As you know, over the last year we've spent a lot of money on corrections -- I think there were 25 or 27 new PYs and probably $15 million in capital expenditures over the next few years -- and this seems to be one way to try to cut down costs. They say in British Columbia they've cut down $10 million in O and M and $30 million in capital. They eliminated three 100-bed open minimal security institutions in BC and they also say that additional savings were achieved through the positive affect on the tax base and reduced welfare payments, and 70 to 75 per cent on EMP have jobs and are paying taxes, et cetera. For those who don't know what electronic monitoring is, an inmate, rather than spending time in a facility, wears an electronic ankle bracelet and has very strict supervision. They have to adhere to an individualized case management plan and have a very strict curfew.

It seems to me, when we're talking about community justice, that this process might have some place in our criminal justice system. I just wanted, Mr. Speaker, to bring this to the attention of Members and I'm going to ask the Minister a question about this in question period. Thank you.

---Applause

Alternatives To Our Criminal Justice System
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 650

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Patterson.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 650

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, once again, unfortunately, I don't recognize any of my constituents today but I do recognize Mr. Ben McDonald from the Union of Northern Workers.

---Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 650

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Ng.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 650

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize two of my constituents, Mr. Eddie Amagonaloak and his stepdaughter. Thank you.

---Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 650

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Premier about the status of the official language directives and I had a chance to read the unedited Hansard. Mr. Speaker, the Premier seemed to be saying that the directives will be based on the availability of funding that the federal government provides. I wonder if that is true.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 650

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I believe the answer was that, given the new agreement and the new numbers, we would have to take that into consideration in terms of finishing off the guidelines. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 650

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 650

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have an act passed in June 1984 and amended in 1990 called the Official Languages Act. Under the act, there are certain obligations that the territorial government has to adhere to. Would those sections that require the government to do certain things be adhered to regardless of the funding or would we have to break the law to avoid those expenditures that the territorial government has if they don't have the funding? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 650

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 650

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Member could be more clear and definitive on what areas he

feels that we might break the law. Within the resources we have -- and we are not only obligated to the resources under the official languages agreement -- the Government of the Northwest Territories does contribute to language development outside the official languages agreement with the federal government. So the only reference I was alluding to was that in writing the guidelines they take into consideration the responsibilities we have and how we can best apply the guidelines to make sure that we live up to those responsibilities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In order to answer the question, to be more specific about what areas I feel need clarification from the Executive Council, in terms of sections in the act that have to be adhered to by the territorial government, I am specifically citing section 9, section 10(3), section 10(1), section 10(2), section 11(1), section 12(2), section 12(3), section 13(4), section 14(1), and section 14(2). I feel these sections have to be clarified by the territorial government in order to give more direction to their managers, in terms of giving information or communicating to aboriginal people; they should have clear directions.

Mr. Speaker, my question was would the territorial government fulfil their obligations under these sections, regardless of whether they have money or not. Or would that be based on the funding available to them, thereby contravening the law of the official languages agreement? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

That was two supplementaries. Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I don't have the agreement in front of me to refer specifically to those sections. I want to assure the honourable Member that it's the intention of the government to attain as many of the obligations and do what we can in terms of language development. I'm not sure what sections he's referring to, so in that regard I'll take a look at the agreement tomorrow and provide a response as it relates to those sections. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Final supplementary.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In looking at the Canada/NWT cooperation agreements and the financial statement that both governments have to sign for the years 1994 and 1995, the Executive department, specifically the official languages unit, lapsed money to the tune of $80,000 for contracting services that could have been used to contract someone to come up with a recommendation to the territorial government on the directives. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, why that money was not used for contracting services so they would at

least have recommendations in front of them to guide them as they are developing guidelines. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I would have to ask for clarification on what $80,000 the Member is referring to. I'm not aware that we lapsed any dollars at all this year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Allooloo, would you clarify the $80,000.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Mr. Speaker, I'm specifically referring to the financial statement that is under the agreement as an activity report signed by both governments. I can see the Premier's aide was one of the signatories to the statement stating that there was a sum of $80,000 that was returned to the federal government as unspent money in the previous year. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I would like some clarification on what previous year. Specifically, which year are we talking about, Mr. Speaker?

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Allooloo, would you clarify that?

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The previous fiscal year. Not this fiscal year; the previous one, 1993-94.

Supplementary To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier, are you clear now?

Further Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, as all Members know in the Legislative Assembly, in the previous agreement we had with the federal government, the terms and conditions of that agreement specified exactly how we should spend the money and on what areas the money was to be expended. There was very little flexibility in moving money around if we didn't spend it in a certain category. The Member is asking a specific question: if a certain amount of money was unspent in 1993-94, why it was not used for a consultant to do a specific job? I would have to look back and see whether the dollars were available for that specific category and say why that money wasn't used. Perhaps it was done in a different way.

At this point in time, I will take that question as notice and try to look into it. I assume that it's 1993-94, and in relation to the consultant that could have been hired. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Question 327-12(7): Funding For Official Languages Directives
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 651

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Zoe.

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question will be directed to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. On February 22nd, I asked the Minister when he was anticipating the report of the MACA reorganization to be completed. At that time, he indicated that he anticipated a

draft report will be available by March 15th, and he was hoping he could table it in this House in early April.

Mr. Speaker, this report has been very concrete to our government. It cost us $89,850 and I'm quite interested in it. I would like to ask the Minister if he could give us the status of the report at this point in time. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Ng.

Return To Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The draft report has been submitted to the steering committee currently overseeing the report, and they expect to make their comments back to the consultants very shortly after the review which is taking place this week. Thank you.

Return To Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Zoe.

Supplementary To Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Minister if he still anticipates that he will be tabling this report in early April, prior to us adjourning?

Supplementary To Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister Ng.

Further Return To Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll endeavour to consult with the department and the steering committee to see what kind of time frame they are looking at now, but I can say that I intend to table the report before the House adjourns. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Question 328-12(7): Status Of Maca Reorganization Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I've learned that reduced funding under the languages agreement with Heritage Canada will cut back French services in the Northwest Territories even more than aboriginal languages. I would like to ask the Premier if she and her government are open to receiving advice from L'Association Franco-Tenoise on how the GNWT's legal obligations to deliver French language services might be modified in light of the reduced funding now available. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Return To Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, we have in the past had continuing consultation with the association and continue to do so. If there is any help or direction that can be provided, we would be pleased to continue the working relationship. Thank you.

Return To Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to hear that but the president of L'Association Franco-Tenoise, Le Territoire du Nord-ouest, M. Daniel Cuerrier when interviewed by CBC recently, said that the GNWT was reluctant to come to the table. I would like to ask the Premier if her earlier answer means that she will make sure that such a meeting is convened to discuss these issues as soon as possible. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Further Return To Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of any incident when the association has requested a meeting with myself or some of my officials where we have denied the request, and the practice will continue, as I indicated to the honourable Member. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Question 329-12(7): Advice From French Association Re Federal Funding Cuts
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Ballantyne.

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice and it has to do with the concept of electronic monitoring. The concept has been used with some success in, I think, four Canadian jurisdictions including the Yukon, and some American jurisdictions. My question to the Minister is, is the Minister looking at the possibility that, at least in some cases, it might be an alternative for offenders?

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, Mr. Speaker, it may be.

Return To Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Ballantyne.

Supplementary To Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 652

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It seems to be a conflicting answer -- yes and may be. So perhaps I could ask again. I think it's something that's worth pursuing. It seems to work in other jurisdictions and it seems to me it might fit into some of our community justice concepts here in the Northwest Territories. If I could, I would like to ask the Minister if he would give it a serious look and perhaps bring back to the House the results of his investigation.

Supplementary To Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I should clarify my first response. I said, yes, it's worth looking at and maybe it's worth pursuing. That's the context in which my response was made. We need to look at all the ideas and innovative approaches taken by other jurisdictions across this country, certainly in the United States, Australia and other parts of the world where people are dealing with overpopulation of inmates, staggering costs of incarceration and, even more importantly, more effective ways of dealing with offenders so they don't continue to offend. We also have the need to find more cost-effective ways of incarcerating and providing relevant programs so we will be looking at these other measures and approaches taken by other governments in countries across the world and will be actively working to reduce costs significantly. I think, personally, that we need to do that, facing the fiscal reductions set by the federal government at this time. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Question 330-12(7): Electronic Monitoring Of Inmates As Alternative For Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 6, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Renewable Resources. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Renewable Resources' department completed a study done by Peat Marwick, Stevenson & Kellogg on the fire management suppression report. This study cost this government $392,000. I would like to ask the Minister, does he plan to table the completed fire management suppression report?

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had not planned to table the report. Thank you.

Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I ask the Minister why he doesn't plan to table the report after spending $392,000? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Further Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe that the report was intended to be a management tool whereby the department will be able to use the material in the

report to make decisions regarding forest fire management in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I've had constituents who have asked for this report to be tabled and I have a copy of it but I find it only appropriate if the government tables this report. The Minister indicated that it is to be used as a management tool by his department officials. Does the Minister not feel his department officials have the expertise to provide the proper advice for fire management suppression? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Further Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that the staff we have in the forest fire management section of the department are very well qualified and have been working in this area for quite some time. However, with the hiring of the consultants, I believe it was the intent of the department to have an independent group who would be able to consult with all residents and all those who would be involved in forest fires in the Northwest Territories; to get their views and then be able to take the recommendations and be able to come up with a forest fire management strategy. But I think that the department has gone further by taking a look at the report and consulting directly with communities at the same time, to try to come up with a strategy that will not cost the government the fiscal or financial resources that we used last year. I think that the report will be made very good use of by the forest fire centre in Fort Smith. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister, through you, whether or not he is going to plan to table this fire management suppression report in the near future.

Further Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Mr. Speaker, I had indicated earlier that it was not my intent to table the report. But I will take a look at it again. I am not, at this time, able to commit to say that I will table it in the House. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Question 331-12(7): Tabling Of Fire Management Suppression Report
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 653

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance about his department, which was Personnel. When a government employee's dependant is sick and requires a doctor's attention, if there are no babysitters or any other people to look after them, that employee is able to take special leave, with pay, to go and see the doctor. But I am told that if the dependant has to go outside the community, the same employee requiring a doctor's attention has to take annual leave. Is that true? Is that the government policy? Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Dent.

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, on Monday, March 6th, in reply to a question by Mr. Lewis, the Minister of Justice said that the government had to visit the question as to whether the state is responsible for victims of crime. He indicated that that was a very difficult philosophical question to address. The question was whether or not, at the time he made that response to Mr. Lewis, he was aware that the previous Minister of Justice had signed, on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories, the statements of basic principles of justice for victims of crime.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I was aware of that agreement. I was also aware that the federal government has entered into a great number of agreements, that they have long since left the scene, and have left this government holding the bag. Thank you.

Return To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am aware that the federal government is backing away from many of its obligations. And, as I said in my Member's statement today, I think that it is inexcusable, but I don't think that it is any excuse for this government to back away from its responsibilities. Just a supplementary to the same Minister, does this now indicate that the government is considering backing away from these basic principles that the government had previously signed?

Supplementary To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, in the social envelope where Ministers of certain departments are involved in social issues and are committed to the community wellness strategy, there is a commitment to discuss issues like this with, for instance, the Minister of Health and Social Services, in deciding what are the priorities of the community in partnership with the communities and the social action oriented organizations that we are in consultation with, in order to set the stage on where the very rapidly dwindling resources of this government should go in the future.

We have lots of principles that we believe in. Members know that we are all committed 100 per cent to the principle of aboriginal languages and we have, after years of wrangling on it, decided to put it to legislation, making financial commitments. Even those principles are being eroded at this time by the federal government reducing their financial commitments to them. In the face of those, I have to tell the Member that all commitments made by this government will have to be reviewed, because I do not believe that we can live up to all the principle we laid before ourselves. We will be barely able, in the foreseeable future, to live up to commitments we have set ourselves in legislation and have committed to live up to. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I find it troubling that it would appear that all of our principles might be subject to question. I guess, for clarity's sake, there is one that I would like to know about for certain, and that is, Mr. Speaker, could the Minister advise if the government will also be re-examining our commitment to the principle of zero tolerance for violence.

Supplementary To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 654

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, it has always been my view that the first and most fundamental initiative that we have taken with zero tolerance is the verbal, personal commitment made by each of us individually as elected official, as elected leaders, as people set in responsibility by the public -- that means every mayor, every counsellor in this territory, it means every chief, every band counsellor, every Metis leader, every president of a metis local and all the members, it means every elected person -- as this country should make the commitment. Once we have that basic tenet, we know by nature that a great number of offences will begin to drop, as the size of the public that have made the commitment starts to grow.

We have to build on that. It is up to the community organizations, the women's groups, the advocate groups, to tell us the community wellness strategy, where the priorities are in placing the dwindling available funds to do work in a social front, which includes the commitments we will make to zero tolerance. We have increasingly less money to do the work and it's up to this government, in partnership with these groups, to decide where our scarce dollars should go. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Question 333-12(7): Minister's Knowledge Re Principles Of Justice Agreement For Crime Victims
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Economic Development a question. Some time ago we were talking about credit unions in the Northwest Territories and he told us he would do everything in his power to give them assistance. What is the status of the credit unions in the Northwest Territories?

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 334-12(7): Status Of Credit Unions In Nwt
Question 334-12(7): Status Of Credit Unions In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member is correct, we were going to make every effort we could to assist the Arctic co-ops to provide them with some seed funding to look at the possibility of opening credit unions. The current status is -- of course, due to the fact that the EDA arrangement which I'm trying to find the funding from has arbitrarily been cut by 50 per cent and that is going to cause us some problems -- we're still actively pursuing other possible funding, alternative options, to assist the ACL in their ongoing effort to establish credit unions in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Return To Question 334-12(7): Status Of Credit Unions In Nwt
Question 334-12(7): Status Of Credit Unions In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 6, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Premier. Does this government have a policy which allows Ministers to award sole-source contracts for the purpose of seeking information which does not fall within their ministerial responsibility or their ministerial mandate? Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Madam Premier.

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The question is taken as notice. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Dent.

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources. Mr. Speaker, recent articles in the press have indicated the federal government is reviewing the royalty regime for diamond mines and these same reports have indicated that BHP, the company thought most likely to proceed with a mine in the new future, is opposed to any change in the royalty regime. Has the Government of the Northwest Territories been involved in discussing diamond royalties with the federal government?

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's time the federal government paid attention to this royalty regime. We've been telling them for the last year and a half that the current royalty regime as it stands in terms of mining in the Northwest Territories is, to put it bluntly, pathetic.

At the present time, we are working with the federal government in an effort to look at a new more lucrative royalty regime that will bring new revenues both to ourselves and to the federal government and clearly some of this has been specifically driven in relationship to the exploration and the potential of a BHP diamond mine up in the Lac de Gras area. Thank you.

Return To Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Dent.

Supplementary To Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary to the same Minister. Since the Minister indicates that the GNWT has been involved with the federal government in discussing a new royalty regime, could the Minister share with the House what this government's position is on what royalties should be for a diamond mine?

Supplementary To Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 655

John Todd Keewatin Central

(Microphone turned off)...we are just initiating discussions now in relationship to what kind of royalty regime would be more conducive for the Northwest Territories and for the federal government. There are sort of bureaucratic discussions currently taking place.

With respect to royalties, particularly as it relates to diamonds, we did recruit two consulting companies to provide us with some options that we could look at in terms of the kinds of royalty regimes we want. We just recently received them from, I believe Price Waterhouse is one of the companies and I believe Peat Marwick, and we're evaluating that at the present time.

One of the difficulties we have, and I've said it in this House many times, is we still don't have the responsibility for mines at this time; it lies with the federal government. It's slightly complicated that they've decided at this late a date, considering the discussions that have gone on with respect to devolution, that they want to look at the royalty regime. While I'm a little concerned that it's coming in after the fact, I'm at least, on the other hand, pleased that they're finally paying some attention to what we believe is a fairly inadequate royalty regime under the current scheme. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Question 336-12(7): GNWT's Involvement In Discussions Re Diamond Royalties
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to Mr. Todd in his capacity as Minister of Transportation and ED&T. The Minister announced last year that he was going to establish ADMs for Nunavut in both those departments. I would like to ask the Minister, is it his intention to do so in the coming fiscal year? Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 337-12(7): Time Frame For Establishment Of Transportation And Ed&t Adm Positions For Nunavut
Question 337-12(7): Time Frame For Establishment Of Transportation And Ed&t Adm Positions For Nunavut
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my intention to appoint two assistant deputy ministers in each of these departments for the east and for the west, and I'm optimistic that we'll have those appointments made by July 1, 1995. Thank you.

Return To Question 337-12(7): Time Frame For Establishment Of Transportation And Ed&t Adm Positions For Nunavut
Question 337-12(7): Time Frame For Establishment Of Transportation And Ed&t Adm Positions For Nunavut
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Allooloo.

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some time ago, Mr. Speaker, I gave notice to one of the Ministers that I would ask this question. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Public Works and Services, regarding government employees' parking lots. During the last session of this Assembly, I asked the Minister whether the government employees who are parking in the government parking lots would be charged economic rents based on Yellowknife economic rents. I understood at that time, the economic rent was about $150 a month and the government employees were paying in the neighbourhood of $20 to $30 a month. I wonder if the Minister gave direction to his department to charge employees economic rent for government parking lots, as he said he would.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Morin.

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member did give me notice when I wasn't the Minister of Public Works and I've misplaced his note, so I'll take his question as notice and get back to him. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance a question. Early in the term of this government, following the Strength at Two Levels report, I believe the government commissioned a study on government travel and sought advice on how government travel could be better managed and organized so as to make better use of our scarce public dollars. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance whatever became of that initiative, have there been any changes made to the procedures of organizing government travel following the recommendations of this Strength at Two Levels report? Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

Return To Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that report was done and has been presented to us. It's still active and there has been no substantial change made in our method of travel at the present time or the way in which we conduct ourselves in that area. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I believe the report was commissioned and completed several years ago. We are now in the last year of the life of this government. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance -- who I know is very enthusiastic about making changes and saving money on the millions we spend on government travel -- is he committed to do anything on this issue before the end of the term of this current government? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Pollard.

Further Return To Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

John Pollard Hay River

Yes, I'm still interested in doing something in this regard, Mr. Chairman, but I should tell the House that it has great ramifications, changes that we might want to make. It is sort of like throwing a rock into a pool, you don't know where the ripples are going to go. It could affect the travel industry; travel agents; it could affect aircraft travel frequency in communities if we chose to go a particular way with a particular airline, it could influence prices, not only for freight but for passenger services. So, I'm still keenly interested in doing something, but I'm also very aware of the fact that this is something that, if not handled properly, could affect communities and the economy of the Northwest Territories. I'm trying to proceed with caution, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Question 339-12(7): Status Of Recommendation Re Government Travel
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 656

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Recognizing our financial situation in the territories, I wonder if the Minister of Finance has ever considered looking at pooling the amount of Aeroplan points or Canadian Plus points that this government or government employees acquire when travelling. I wonder if he's ever considered putting these into a fund for travel for the Government of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Finance, Mr. Pollard.

Return To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's no secret that my preference would be that benefits accrue to the government from points earned by government employees, MLAs and people working for the government and spending government money for those tickets. The points should be used for either negotiating a discount with airlines and saying we won't accept points, or using those points for travel for the GNWT as it moves people around. I haven't met with a great deal of success, Mr. Speaker, in convincing even Members of this House that that is the way it should be. But it has been considered and looked at. I know for a fact that the offices of the Auditor General of Canada use the points for department travel, and I'm certainly interested in having those points accrue to the people of the Northwest Territories through the government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to ask the Minister whether he would consider borrowing from the federal government a policy they have in place for their point system and consider developing one similar for the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Pollard.

Further Return To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Speaker, I'm aware of the federal government policy and, yes, I am interested in making that a similar policy apply to this particular jurisdiction. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Supplementary To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could I ask the Minister when he will consider something like this? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Pollard.

Further Return To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Speaker, I'd consider it tomorrow. I should say, though, that it really needs to be handled in the context of Mr. Patterson's question which is about general travel in the Northwest Territories and how the government books that travel. We know there are some efficiencies there and when we do eventually come to grips with that problem, that's when the points would have to be decided as well. As I said to Mr. Patterson, I'm still interested -- before the life of this government is over -- in doing something and I'll continue to push the issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Question 340-12(7): GNWT Use Of Employees' Air Travel Points
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for Mr. Todd. I am sure the Minister knows what a critical tool the EDA has been for job creation and economic development in less economically developed areas of the Northwest Territories and I know he's been working hard to reinstate the cut funding. I would like to ask the Minister, what is the current status now on the future of the EDA? Thank you.

Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

John Todd Keewatin Central

I'm not trying to reinstate it. The fact of the matter is, the federal government has arbitrarily cut it by 50 per cent. What we're working with the federal government on is an alternative program and we're working close with Mr. Irwin's office in trying to influence the agenda for an alternative program. This year -- just to bring Mr. Patterson up to date -- it has been 50 per cent cut, which is roughly about $2.8 million and the current EDA, as we understand it, will sunset in April 1996. Thank you.

Return To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

This is very alarming news, Mr. Speaker, and I am familiar with the federal government's intentions. I would like to ask the Minister what he has done or will do to try to head off this turn of events. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 657

John Todd Keewatin Central

We have, Mr. Speaker, as I said, been working with the Minister's office in an effort to influence whatever new policy would come in place for the Northwest Territories. The position we've taken is that we would like to see a program of similar design as the EDA specific to the NWT. Currently, there's a movement to see if we would be prepared to be part of the western diversification fund and I felt

we could get a bit swallowed there with the larger provinces. I think we have an understanding -- and I stress "think" -- with Mr. Irwin's office that we should have a funding policy or program that is specific to the NWT and that's what we're currently working on, in conjunction with his office, Mr. Doherty, who is the lead man in this, and also Mr. Anawak, the MP for Nunatsiaq and the Parliamentary Secretary.

Further Return To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister mentions discussions with the Minister's office and the Minister's officials. I would like to ask the Minister -- bearing in mind the House is in session but I think this is an extremely important issue to the people of the Northwest Territories -- is he planning to meet face to face with Mr. Irwin to discuss this issue and impress upon him the importance of as much as possible reviving this important program? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

John Todd Keewatin Central

The EDA and support programs for the Northwest Territories are currently under review. Community futures is another one under review which is fairly effective, in my opinion. It is a priority with myself, as the Minister. We've indicated both to Mr. Irwin, Mr. Axworthy and the community futures program that we would like to take these programs over. We think we can run them in a more cost-effective way and still maintain the capital that we can give or loan out to small businesses. So, it is a priority.

I'm currently having discussions with Mr. Irwin's office in an effort to seek a meeting with him. I will know today or tomorrow whether I can discuss the matter of the community futures program, in consultation with my colleague, Mr. Nerysoo, with Mr. Axworthy possibly this Friday. I want to assure my colleague that we recognize the importance of what EDA has contributed and I don't think I have to remind everybody that it was 70-cent dollars from the feds and 30-cent dollars to us. However, the reality is with budget restraints and cutbacks at the federal level is that we have to look somewhere else and we have to look a little more creatively. That is why we are working on a weekly basis with Mr. Irwin's office in an effort to influence whatever new program will eventually evolve out of the DIAND office to replace the problem. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Question 341-12(7): Current Status Of Eda
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Speaker, we are all following, with bated breath, the outcome of the fish wars with Spain. I would like to ask the Minister of Renewable Resource if he and his officials are monitoring the negotiations between Canada and Spain, particularly over the issue of turbot, to make sure that the interests of the people of the Northwest Territories are not being overlooked. Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Return To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, we are keeping a close watch on the negotiations between Canada and Spain. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

I would like to ask the Minister, Mr. Speaker, have the Spanish vessels been fishing in areas where NWT or NWT-affiliated companies have been given licences to fish turbot. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Further Return To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe so but I would be willing to confirm that. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson.

Supplementary To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I understand that the Canadian proposal in the negotiation, according to newspaper reports, is to give Spain more turbot, more of the share of the Canadian allocation of turbot, in return for agreement from Spain for better enforcement and more accountability for not over-fishing and not using undersized nets, et cetera. I would like to ask the Minister if Spain is given more turbot by Canada under negotiations, what would this do to the opportunities for northern fishermen to get a fair share of a diminishing allocation of turbot within Canada? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Further Return To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 658

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe that that would be a question suitable for the Minister

of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. But I could speculate that the share that the Northwest Territories has had of the quota in the Atlantic Ocean, has been very minimal. In fact, it has been reduced in the past year.

However, in discussions that I have had with the Minister of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, he has indicated to me that there is room for fishermen in the Northwest Territories. And that we should be able to get involved in the areas that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been managing on the Atlantic Ocean, especially in the waters around Baffin and Greenland.

In the meeting I attended with department officials, I had asked the Minister whether a workshop with the department of fisheries officials and the Nunavut wildlife management board -- who are probably a large part of our stakeholders in the Northwest Territories -- should be getting together in the near future. That was left with the Nunavut wildlife management board -- who, at the time, were just getting started with the staff -- to try to come up with a time line whereby they would be able to get together with the officials of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Question 342-12(7): Monitoring Fish War Between Canada And Spain
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 659

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Lewis.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table Tabled Document 68-12(7), a letter from the Arctic Institute of North America in Calgary, dated March 26th, signed by Ross Goodwin, the manager of the arts and science technology information system. His final sentence is "I hope you are successful in convincing the majority of MLAs to preserve the library possession of the northern heritage centre library."

The second document, Mr. Speaker, if I may, Tabled Document 69-12(7), is from the Canadian Circumpolar Library at the University of Alberta. It is dated March 22nd, and it is signed by Linda Seale, who is a librarian at that institution, urging us to understand the impact of not having a librarian to look after a world-class library.

If I may, Mr. Speaker, Tabled Document 70-12(7) is a letter from the University of Alberta, dated March 22nd, signed by Robin Minion from the Canadian Circumpolar Library, asking us to examine the library and estimate the impact of not having a librarian at that institution.

And, finally, Mr. Speaker, Tabled Document 71-12(7) is a letter from Susan Baer, president of the NWT Library Association. It is a copy of a letter sent to Mr. Nerysoo, which urges him -- there are lots of other letters that he has received also, Mr. Speaker -- about the importance of this library, not only to the territories but also to Canada and to the international community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Pollard.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 72-12(7), the affirmative action task group terms of reference. Thank you.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Dent.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Tabled Document 73-12(7), a page from the victims' assistance training program manual, Government of the Northwest Territories Department of Justice, which sets out the statements of basic principles of justice for victims of crime.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 13, tabling of documents. Ms. Cournoyea.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 74-12(7), consultation on forest fire program, which consists of a list of interviews and community consultations.

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 659

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Mr. Lewis.

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Thursday, March 30th, I will move the following motion.

I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River, that the Speaker be authorized to set such sitting hours as the Speaker, after consultation, deems fit to assist with the business before the House.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Lewis.

Bill 31: Recall Act
Item 15: Notices Of Motions For First Reading Of Bills

Page 659

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Thursday, March 30, 1995, I shall move that Bill 31, Recall Act, be read for the first time.

Bill 31: Recall Act
Item 15: Notices Of Motions For First Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96; Bill 21, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95; Bill 29, Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995; Committee Report 2-12(7), Report on the Legislative Action Paper on the Office of Ombudsman for the Northwest Territories; Committee Report 3-12(7), Report on the Review of the Legislative Action Paper Proposing New Heritage Legislation for the Northwest Territories; and, Committee Report 4-12(7), Report on the Review of the 1995-96 Main Estimates, with Mr. Lewis in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 660

The Chair Brian Lewis

I'll call the committee to order. What would the committee like to do? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I would like to recommend that committee continue consideration of Bill 1 and Committee Report 4-12(7), specifically to deal with the budget of the Department of Education and, if we conclude that, we then move on to Bill 29 and, should we happen to conclude that, we then move back into the budget and consider the Housing Corporation.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Do Members agree with that proposal in that order of business?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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Some Hon. Members

Department Of Education, Culture And Employment

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The Chair Brian Lewis

It's getting late in the afternoon, I would like to propose that we have a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

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The Chair Brian Lewis

We're on page 15-13, culture and careers. Mr. Nerysoo was at the witness table when we broke. Mr. Nerysoo, would you like to have your witnesses to again join you at the table?

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I might have the support of my colleagues.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Do Members agree that Mr. Nerysoo should take the witness table?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Could the Sergeant-at-Arms ask the witnesses to come in, please?

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. For the record again, could you please introduce your witnesses for me.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my left is Mr. Hal Gerein, who is the deputy minister of Education, Culture and Employment. On my right is Mr. Paul Devitt, who is the director of finance and administration in the department.

Culture and Careers

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you very much. On culture and careers, we were on total O and M, $70,930 million. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just a reminder to the Minister, yesterday he had agreed to provide some information to Members and as far as I know this has not yet been received, in my office anyway. I don't know if other Members have received it but I had hoped that we would have it in hand before continuing consideration of the budget today. Perhaps I could ask the Minister if that information will be forthcoming forthwith.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, the document is being printed at this particular time. In fact, it's being printed today. We have to have them print it. The honourable Member should know that the document is a draft document that is being discussed with the boards. There are no final decisions on all the information in it. I made a commitment to provide the committee with a document that is draft so that the Members would get some information as to the work that we are now conducting with the boards. It's now with the printers and is being printed for the Members.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Minister's explanation and understand that it's a draft document, but still feel that it would help us in understanding what the proposals are.

Perhaps if I could move on, Mr. Chairman.

I have some questions about Arctic College courses. I know I've had some calls from constituents who are concerned that the cost of courses for Arctic College seem to be escalating quite significantly. I understand that money is tight and I understand that the college has been directed to recover more and more of their cost of operation through course fees. What concerns me is that one of the reasons for being for Arctic College was to ensure that people who might not otherwise be able to take advantage of college courses can do so. I think that a lot of people who haven't completed their education nor a lot of experience outside the territories, are uncomfortable moving to southern settings to take on courses and they are sometimes not as successful as they might be in northern ones. I thought that one of the principles that we were supposed to be supporting with Arctic College is ensuring access, in particular to our northern and aboriginal residents who have specific need of upgrading.

It's a bit of a concern to some of my constituents who see the course cost for courses like women in management set at $300 or management courses set at $450 and resolving workplace conflict courses set at $300. I think a lot of the courses that the college offers are, in fact, aimed at northern and aboriginal residents to help them improve their skills so that they can progress, in particular, to middle and senior levels of management within this government. Unless they are already working for the government, many of them would have to cover the cost of these courses on their own. I recognize that if they're already employed by the government, the cost of tuition may be picked up by the employer. I think there has to be a fine line that we walk here between maximizing revenue and ensuring that courses that might help people to progress are kept at a reasonable cost. I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on how the department reviews the setting of fees for Arctic College to ensure that we are enabling our northern and aboriginal residents to participate in college courses.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Some comments and some questions, then, Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments made by the Member. It is a concern that, as Minister, I also share. I think that we have to reflect upon the issue of cost reductions based on the fiscal situation that we're all in. In other words, we have to try to find ways in which everyone has to pick up their share of paying for the financial problems or financial situation that we're in. I think that, generally speaking, we're at a stage now where those choices have to be made. As a result of that we've had to make our recommendations to the Arctic College board knowing that there's still an increase in the financial resources that they're going to be receiving. In spite of that, I do say to the honourable Member that, generally speaking, our course costs are as much as one-quarter of what would normally be charged at other institutions in the country. That, in my view, is a reflection of our commitment that we generally take the same position that the honourable Member has stated, and that is that we have to try to make as many of the courses available as possible to our northern community and our northern students.

There are other factors. I think that our student financial assistance program takes the responsibility of paying for much of the courses. The other component is that we have in some ways made it a little easier for our students in terms of child care costs, allowing for part-time students and full-time students to access resources, and upon the direction and advice from the Members of the Assembly we've been able to open the opportunities for financial support much better than it was previously. I share the concern.

The other component that we have to continue to be concerned about are the demographics. In other words, the total population increases and what that might mean in terms of the program or the access to college programming or post-secondary programs. I don't have much to say in opposition to the honourable Member but we do have to consider the financial situation and how we can accommodate the reductions while at the same time maintaining the level and the quality of service that we are now providing. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't ensure that our colleges and our campuses have the ability to expand their programs. We've done that on a number of occasions, but at the same time we have to seriously consider this issue of centres of excellence. The standing committee talked about that matter a number of times. We may not be able to offer a program in every campus so we have to ensure that if we have a program, it is based in a location where we can offer the best resources and services. The nursing program is a good example of that. The point that was made by Mr. Patterson on environmental technology is another one. At the same time, we have to recognize the point the honourable Member made; that is, trying to deliver some of these programs as close to home as possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Culture and careers, $70.930 million. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some questions in this area. Mr. Chairman, the Minister is aware of the Gjoa Haven leaders' summit that was held earlier this year where Nunavut education leaders, I think, had a very positive meeting with his officials. They took the lead in organizing a conference of Nunavut education leaders to work on developing a coordinated approach for training for Nunavut and I think it is not only kindergarten to grade 12 but also post-secondary. I'm sure the Minister has the report on what a positive conference that was, eliminating duplication, ensuring coordination of all the various actors: land claims organizations, aboriginal organizations, the federal government, et cetera.

I think it was a credit to the department that the department was asked to take the lead in organizing a follow-up meeting to build on the progress of the Gjoa Haven meeting and to develop a coordinated approach. I guess that entails some financial commitment, but to me it was important that our government had the credibility and was given the opportunity to lead the initiative. It was suggested that a senior government official should chair the next meeting. In fact, I know the Minister is aware that one of the recommendations was that there be a person named to be responsible for education and training in Nunavut, preferably a new ADM who would chair that meeting and lead that initiative.

I would like to ask the Minister, is he now able to respond and indicate whether the department will be replying to the challenge, the confidence placed in them, by the Nunavut education leaders? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the issue of structure of the department, before I respond to the issue of the ongoing process, I just want to advise the honourable Member that we are preparing plans and, hopefully, we'll have those plans completed by the end of April. Part of that is where we're going as a department in order for us to ensure we are ready for Nunavut in 1999, including the matter of the assistant deputy minister or senior staff member responsible for implementation.

I think it's necessary for us to deal with it in the context of what leadership is necessary so the organizations, including the boards of education, the Government of Canada, Nunavut Arctic College, NITC and NIC, can feel comfortable with it. We hope to have a broad response that will satisfy the direction given at the Gjoa Haven summit in January. I will indicate that we'll work on that and our plans will generally show our commitment to the implementation process, including the matter of staff.

The other component the honourable Member has mentioned with the matter of Nunavut education leaders, I want to say one thing: while that meeting took place in January in Gjoa Haven, let's not forget that the process began in the Keewatin a little over a year ago when the divisional boards of education brought together NITC and NIC in Rankin Inlet to begin the process of discussion about who would be responsible for the delivery of educational programming and post-secondary training. We were involved then and I can advise the honourable Member that we will continue to be involved.

I think what we need to do is get a sense of who will be involved, as was the case with the Nunavut leaders conference but we also need to have a plan of action and part of that will be completed, as I indicated, at the end of April. We're looking at a potential education leadership meeting taking place in May of this year. That will depend on whether or not we can get all the parties together, ensuring all parties are happy and have the time and ability to participate. We will set a date after April 31st and try to work around that. I'm not sure if there's anything else I can offer at this particular juncture.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Well, I would just like to say I'm encouraged by the Minister's response. I think that there's a sense of urgency on the part of the people planning for Nunavut. I'm sure the Minister has sensed that. I know he was able to attend the meeting last year in the Keewatin, for which we were grateful. I would just like to say, in closing, that I'm fairly confident that the participants of that meeting wanted to get together again before the summer. May would be soon enough, so I'm pleased with that response and I was pleased with the senior participation of the department at that meeting. We'll look forward to carrying on that work. I'll set this issue aside for now.

But there's one other thing I would like to say. I don't know what reorganization would be required on the Minister's part to name a senior official or to create an ADM position, but I think it would be very useful if all of those various agencies -- and there's a lot of them with a lot of money -- had one window through which they could interact with the government, one individual.

Mr. Chairman, if I may, I have some other questions relating to the college. None of this will surprise the Minister, I'm sure. I would like to ask about trades training. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, was direction given by the former president of Arctic College and is the direction still in place, that all credited trades apprenticeship training that takes place in the Northwest Territories shall take place at the magnificent facilities of the trades complex in Thebacha campus of Aurora College? Is that the direction; that that is where people should go, if they're taking this training in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The general direction that was given was first to divide the college into two colleges. Secondly, it was to maintain the programs that were in existence in the locations where they were located. Thirdly, there was a need for the development of a college development strategy that would outline the general direction that each college would take, of which trades in Nunavut would be one of those components. So in that sense, we need a plan of action as to which direction we were going, then from that would stem the whole issue of the investment decisions that needed to take place so we could incorporate the general strategy and direction that was being undertaken or being given and received from the plan. That's the direction in which we were going.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
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Page 662

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Just to be very specific, Mr. Chairman, is the trades complex in Thebacha the designated trades training institution in the territories right now? The only one? Is that correct?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, yes. It's the only location at this particular time that has the equipment to deliver the courses. One component that the honourable Member should be aware of is the strategy of the college may indicate a need to move in the trades area. The next thing is to develop an operational component that deals with the investment decisions as to how we implement the general trades programs in Nunavut Arctic College. Once we know that, then we can make our long-term plans to coincide with those kinds of decisions. That includes the matter of assessing what we're doing in Aurora College at Thebacha Campus.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

I've given some notice of this question to the Minister. For this territorial facility, what proportion of students are attending that facility from the regions of the Nunavut Arctic College?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

I can give you the statistics, Mr. Chairman, for 1993-94, and I think it will be a reflection of the general amount. It may vary depending on how many we have. I think the only difference would be a bit higher numbers in the west.

In 1993-94, the amounts were 70 apprentices from Nunavut and 78 apprentices in the west. That was the number.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

How about the success rates of the students from Nunavut? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could back as far as 1990-91 and then come forward to 1993-94, I think it would give you a reflection. In 1990-91, it was 67 per cent; in 1991-92, it was 61 per cent; 1992-93, it was 72 per cent; and, 1993-94 it was 62 per cent.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you very much, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister, it looks like there's a one-third attrition rate, roughly. Are those acceptable rates of success for those students? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's not unusual, Mr. Chairman, for apprenticeships. Generally speaking, that seems to be the national trend; about 30 per cent loss in apprenticeships. Actually, it's about 30 to 50 per cent.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I fully understand, especially with some trades and especially with the more advanced years of trades training you do need fairly sophisticated equipment, like welding equipment, like electrical. But in almost all of our communities, certainly our larger communities, we have excellent shops in place in fields like carpentry, mechanical, automotive. We have excellent basic facilities. It seems to me that, even without establishing sophisticated equipment, if the will was there that we could offer at least trades training in the initial years in communities closer to home for those Nunavut students. I would submit that experience with the teacher education program and other programs that have been repatriated closer to home is that your success rates would only improve.

I would like to ask the Minister, what plans are in this budget that is before us to allow trades training to take place in Nunavut, especially in the early years without sophisticated equipment being required, using resources that are already in hand in our communities: housing association warehouses and shops, those sorts of creative approaches that have been the way the college at Smith developed. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so there's no confusion about our position, I want to at least be able to ensure that we have a capacity to deliver educational programming at the community level. There are some things that we're already doing that allow for the pre-trades training. I think the building and learning initiative that we've undertaken in the community, which includes the matter of actually formal education, is something that I think we have been very successful at, along with Public Works and Services and the Housing Corporation. So in that sense, I think we have an ability to move in that direction.

I think the problem that seems to arise around this whole issue of trades training -- and I think the Member has pointed it out -- is simply there seems to be a pure debate on the issue of facilities, and not necessarily how we might be able to improve the programs and services at the community level. I think you've highlighted that and said there are other ways we can do it. It's our view that we can do those kinds of things. There's the possibility of module-type training opportunities; the issue of moving instructors from one community to another community on a rotational basis; different types of instruction, whether or not it's heavy equipment or whether or not it's plumbing, whether or not it's home maintenance; whatever it is, I think we have that opportunity.

The debate sometimes gets bogged down purely in the issue of facilities. My concern would be if we are to worry about facilities in order for us to deliver programs, then we would not be offered a lot of adult programs in our communities. In other words, that would have been the basis of our argument. So I think the honourable Member has pointed out an issue that, if we could sit down with the Nunavut education leadership and the Nunavut Arctic College and see that there are opportunities in the short term that can provide for these training opportunities in the Nunavut communities. I think we can solve the problem.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree that it is not the facilities that are important, it is creating training opportunities using what is already in place. I would like to ask the Minister...And I believe the Minister has power under the appropriate legislation to provide not only leadership but, if necessary, direction to the college boards flowing from advice given by this Assembly and by Nunavut education leaders and others who have a stake in education.

I would like to ask the Minister if he is prepared to initiate discussions with the college boards to take steps to meet what I understand is a clear priority of the Nunavut Arctic College board -- and I know the new board has only met once, but they have already written the Minister and said trades is a priority, understand -- is the Minister prepared to provide leadership, get the boards together and look for constructive solutions?

I don't care whether PYs and dollars are transferred or seconded, whatever the device is, but I would like to see trades training starting closer to home, in Nunavut. Now that we have a separate college and now that the Thebacha College no longer has the mandate to serve the whole Northwest Territories. And I suspect, as the heavy equipment program has done in taking the program to the people, the good people at Thebacha College and in the Aurora board would be open to making those person years available to students in Nunavut who want to take their training closer to home. Will the Minister initiate meetings towards that end? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so that Members know, I have already initiated the issue of meeting with the boards. I have sent a letter to them indicating that I wanted to have a discussion with departmental officials and with the board to discuss first of all, the strategic plans that they have submitted. And secondly, to try to address the issue of general programming and services that would be offered including the whole matter of investments and innovative methods by which we could provide programming and services to both Aurora College and Nunavut Arctic College. That meeting is being planned for mid-April

.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

We will eagerly look forward to the results of that meeting and positive reports from the Minister at the next session of the Legislature, if not before. Am I correct that the Minister, in addition to his good offices, does have the authority to provide policy direction to the boards to accomplish worthwhile agreed-upon goals like the one that I am discussion this afternoon? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, and once we have an indication of the general direction and we are satisfied that the general strategies that have been proposed are complementary and supportive, we will address the issues that have been raised. I am hoping that the strategic plans will address the concern. In fact, in my view, because of the letters that I have received from the chair of the Nunavut Arctic College, I think that some of these issues will be resolved at the joint meeting, because the boards are jointly meeting. They have resolved a number of the other financial issues and it is my view that they will probably address this whole issue and resolve it as well. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, this is positive news. I am looking forward to those developments. I would just like to clarify here, Mr. Chairman; even though I am the Member for Iqaluit, I would like to think that I am looking at the picture of trades training in Nunavut, and I want to mention that I know that a lot of good work has been undertaken under the leadership of Michael Schouldice in Keewatin to develop a trades training plan. There is excellent support in that region. I would hope that would be one of the first places that we would look to in Nunavut to get trades training going. I would like to express my support for that initiative from that region and make it clear that I am not just looking at it from a parochial point of view.

Mr. Chairman, I just have a few more questions on the college, I don't want to monopolize the floor.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

(Microphone turned off)...else with their hand up, Mr. Patterson, so proceed please.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn to the environmental technology programs. I made a statement the other day about this. I would really like to ask the Minister, I know this was a college board initiative, but what on earth is going on here with this articulation of programs.

I am getting a clear impression from people I talk to, who care about the environmental technology program that has been established in Nunatta Campus, that they are really feeling that this report and the initiative of the Arctic College is to confine the environmental technology program; to force them to develop courses in common with the renewable resource technology program, which is a different program, serving a different constituency in a different region. And they are feeling quite hamstrung, because what they want to do is respond to the Nunavut land claim, the wildlife management and land management training challenges that are emerging from the implementation of that claim.

Here this study is going on which is saying they are going to now have one common name, they will have 18 out of 22 courses that are going to be in common. What on earth is the motivation for this? Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, shouldn't we be allowing each program to flourish and evolve; one towards the Arctic marine, one toward forestry and in the Delta -- I don't know much about that program but it would seem to me that would be another different constituency that would have different needs, maybe a blend of both, I don't know. But I cannot understand why this is happening and I wonder if the Minister shares my concerns and agrees that the purpose of creating two colleges was to allow programs to evolve to meet the needs of different regions. Why does this study seem to point us in the direction towards cloning our programs. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so, Mr. Chairman, there is no confusion, the problem with having given a report of this particular type to my colleagues and management reports generally, is that in some cases we don't always agree with the consultants and we have not made any final conclusions. That is the problem about providing management reports. What we were trying do, basically, is to provide a report and give you an analysis of the information that has been brought forward.

I want to say to the honourable Member that we are examining the report. There have been no final decisions/determinations on the recommendations. The other component is that, based on the information, there is potential for amalgamation of programs or subjects that are being taught that can be similar. Some basic information gathering: research; biology; whatever those basics are, I think they can be consistent. Where it may differ is in the detailed work, whether you are in marine biology or in boreal forests. So in that sense, Mr. Chairman, I still think we have an opportunity to review the final environmental technology program and have a discussion with both Aurora College and Nunavut Arctic College and then conclude our decisions about that program.

The other components are one, whether or not there are certificates for that program and two, whether it is a diploma program. Some provide for certificates maybe after one year and a diploma after two years. Those are the kinds of things we have to consider. No final decisions have been made.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, there was to have been a joint articulation committee established according to the consultant's recommendations. I understand that Nunatta Campus representatives have withdrawn from this committee

and I would like to ask about the status of the committee, especially if half the participants have withdrawn.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear on the status of that situation. It is generally an internal matter. I will revisit that matter when I meet with the boards and ask them to clarify whether or not that issue has been resolved and maybe make some recommendations as to how it may be resolved.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Before I recognize Mr. Patterson again, is there anybody else who would like to get in on this item, culture and careers, total O and M, $70.93 million? Okay, Mr. Patterson, carry on.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. In that point, I think I've made my views clear, I hope they will be considered, and I'll leave it at that. My feeling is that the articulation committee is not working and there are good reasons for that. Mr. Chairman, in response to written questions that I asked, I was very pleased to get the Minister's response about the levels of funding which would be available for the environmental technology training program. In the written response he said, referring to the RRTP program at Thebacha Campus and the environmental technology program at Nunatta Campus: "For 1995-96, an estimated $340,000 is allocated to each college to support this program. This includes funding for three positions. As well, college east receives an additional sum as a result of cost differential." I guess that is now Nunavut Arctic College, I should correct myself.

I was quoting from the written response, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to say that I was pleased with this response. Am I correct that sum mentioned in the Minister's return to written question represents an increase in funding over previous years? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. I would like to ask Mr. Gerein to respond to that question.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Gerein.

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Gerein

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What is reflected, Mr. Chairman, in the return the honourable Minister made was the actual allocations that would be attributed to this program as base funding through the college funding allocation program. The amount that the college actually chooses to spend on a program is a decision by the board. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess that explains, perhaps, why I have different information about what was actually spent. For example, the Avery Cooper consultant's report on the review of these programs states on page (i) that in 1993-94, RRTP had a budget of $406,000 and spent $475,000 and the ETP program had a budget of $293,000 and spent $264,000. My information about 1994-95 is that the budgets were $388,000 and $206,000 respectively for RRTP and ETP. What I'm understanding from the Minister is the sums available, as far as the department is concerned, are $340,000. Okay. I would like to ask, then, what is the additional amount referred to as "an additional sum as a result of cost differential?"

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

We don't have the exact figures. Maybe I could come back at another time and respond to the Member with a written response.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Patterson? Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the same response, there was information that the Nunavut College will have 12 positions and about $1.5 million for student support services and the Aurora College will receive approximately $2.2 million and funding for 18 positions. Could I get an explanation as to why there seems to be quite different allocations for each college in the area of student support services? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The differences are based on the formula. I believe the amount is about 45 per cent and 55 per cent and it is also a reflection of the total student population; in other words, the total amounts.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the college funding allocation system is the name of that formula, I think. Am I correct that that formula does not actually take into account person years but rather it is a formula for allocating dollars?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that's correct. In fact, the honourable Member will know that that is the formula we generally follow for the division of resources for school boards as well. It's the same approach and they determine the allocation of those resources to the programs, campuses, and adult centres.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I understand there are about 250 nursing jobs in Nunavut. We only have, I believe, 10 students in the nursing training program offered out of Yellowknife from Nunavut. I would like to ask the Minister whether he believes that perhaps in future, nursing training could be offered in Nunavut to help target northern residents taking some of those 250 jobs. It's a tremendous opportunity I would think, a tremendous

employment opportunity for Nunavut residents. We're only attracting 10 students to the Yellowknife program; wouldn't we have more success getting more students if we offered a program in Nunavut? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Generally speaking, I would say that everyone would probably agree that if it's possible to deliver the program then we would be able to do it. However, fiscally, we have to deal with the whole issue of priority occupations and I think the one right now that is a serious concern and a priority in Nunavut Arctic College seems to be the trades. We have to focus, at least initially, on that particular matter.

The other thing that we should be cognizant of is the labour market requirements because sometimes we could get into training programs that do not respond to labour market situations. The honourable Member has pointed out one where jobs could be made available, and I'm not going to say that we're not going to respond but I think our experience over the past several years will give us some indication as to how we might be able to do a better job in responding to the Nunavut client. Whether or not it's an issue of creating another program, whether or not it's just simply an access year or whether or not it's a matter of retaining the program here in Yellowknife and, again, doing what we've done in other programs; that is, molded to respond to the needs of the Nunavut communities. That's an issue that needs to be reviewed in the context of our college strategy. The other thing that I pointed out earlier is that we should not lose sight of the potential for creating programs of excellence in each college and, for that matter, in each campus if that's possible. I think there is some expertise that could be better left in one particular location and have people move to those programs. That has to be considered.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Is the Minister aware that the Baffin health board is working with the Dalhousie outpost nursing program to develop a nursing training capacity in the Baffin? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can say that we are aware of it but I would also be cautious in terms of -- and my honourable colleague has made mention of this a number of times -- if we have the expertise and we've had the experience in Arctic College delivering programs, it just doesn't make sense for us to introduce a new institution in the process. If we have the program available, it might be better for us to look at the expansion of the program rather than introducing a new one. We could redesign it so that it meets the needs of the client that we have to serve. I think the northern experience is a good one to consider.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Well, I couldn't agree with the Minister's sentiments more and I think that unless there is a program designed or the program is modified, then you're going to have organizations like Dalhousie and the Baffin health board saying well, we'll have to do it ourselves. I would strongly recommend that the Minister get a step ahead of the process and encourage the Arctic College to reach out to meet these needs. He's answered my question as I'd hoped.

Mr. Chairman, when I talk to people from the Arctic College in Nunavut, they tell me that they're facing financial restraint and cutbacks and they're going to have to make do with less funding than last year. I'd like to ask the Minister, in a global sense, looking at his budget, have the K-12 programs and the school programs been given more of a priority than college funding as far as growth is concerned in this budget? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Minister.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I can't say that. I can say to the Members that there are priority programs in which we've added more resources. There have been reductions, you might say, in the whole area of administration. The overall increase in our budget generally is about $4. For instance, in the case of SFA, it's $3 million. It really depends on how people view this. The other component that is still an unknown factor is the whole issue of social assistance and the use of those resources for post-secondary education. The other thing is the, I believe, $2 million into northern skill development, those are the kinds of things if you start reviewing them, whether or not there's a reduction, an overall increase in the actual assistance to students and therefore better access for students because those dollars are also used for paying for the cost of programs and services that are being offered at the college. That is the kind of stuff that, unless you do an overall picture, becomes very difficult.

I think some of the concerns that we all have is really the uncertainty right now about what will happen with regard to income support programs across the country. I'm the Minister responsible for the general discussions that will go on with the federal government and I'm hoping that we can meet very shortly with Mr. Axworthy so that we can have these general discussions so that we get some sense of security about those resources.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Before I recognize Mr. Patterson again, is there any other Member who would like to get in on comments or questions on culture and careers, total O and M, $70.93 million? Okay, Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't be much longer. Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned investing in people and I know there's a healthy $6 million budgeted in these main estimates for us. I wish him and his officials every success. I suspect that weaning off welfare is going to be a real tough challenge because looking at the program in my constituency -- and there's been an excellent instructor located to run that program and I have great confidence in the instructor -- but looking at the students I see that they bring with them to class all kinds of problems that are beyond the control of the instructor. Whether it's family violence, other

personal needs -- they're often single parents; sometimes there are personal problems including alcohol and drug treatment that are getting in the way of training for employment.

I would like to ask the Minister, I know that the department boldly established a number of programs this year in a number of communities. I think it was done, I would say, boldly, but some might say in a rush. Have you had a chance to assess yet how these programs are working? How has the attrition rate been? Have you done an evaluation? Have you got some successes where you can say we've got some people now who are motivated or who are on their way out of the cycle? I would just like to get a feeling from the Minister. We're putting a lot of money into this, everyone wants it to work, I want it to work, but is it going to work? What's the post-mortem on the money you've spent this current fiscal year? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have not concluded any assessments of those projects that are being funded at this particular juncture. Just so the honourable Member is aware, we have not spent as much money as probably we would have liked to in as many communities as possible. What we are finding probably is that we still need to do a lot of work with our communities and advise them about the program and opportunities, and to make recommendations of some of the initiatives that might be considered.

I can say that in one particular case, in Hay River the response to the adult training component is excellent in terms of its results. In fact, Mr. Chairman, interestingly, they've sent me some letters thanking me for the initiative that I've undertaken and, in fact, students are recommending that we continue with the initiative.

I think where we are starting to see returns on investments is in the whole area of building and learning. I think there we see people who are actually in the trades area actually involved in government capital project and us, as a government, using those monies to train people in the trades helper area, I think we are seeing the results now. There are some situations where I can probably point to a community like Aklavik where we started out with a suggestion of about seven, and we ended up with 17 people in the project. Coppermine was successful. So we're now starting to see certification of individuals who are older in some cases, have less education but are either going to school or maintaining their interests in the trades.

I can't give a conclusive indication to the honourable Member on the investing in people; I think that's going to take us some time, particularly since we don't have as many of the communities as we would like to have involved in that. But it really focuses on things like skill development, life skills, adult basic education. Once we get people in those areas, I think you'll see them taking on other opportunities.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, one of the problems that I saw when I looked at the investing in people program in my community was that where students had personal needs that had to be addressed -- such as counselling, such as child care problems, sometimes things as simple as finding a way to get to school and lacking the funds for transportation, that sort of thing -- they went to the local officials in the Department of Health and Social Services who said, basically, we haven't time to give the one-on-one counselling and support that's sometimes required to give these people in school. We don't have the mandate, we're busy with our regular caseload, and there didn't seem to be a coordinated approach between the two departments -- I'm referring to Health and Social Services and the college and the Department of ECE.

I know Health and Social Services is undergoing changes, amalgamating and it's no surprise to me that they have other things on their mind right now. I would like to ask the Minister if he agrees that personal support and support from Health and Social Services and the resources of that department may be critical with many of these students, to allow them to cope with the added demands of going to school, looking after their children, surviving in this program, and whether or not the department will look at better linkages with Health and Social Services so these needs can be addressed to keep these people in school. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think the honourable Member has highlighted the whole reason why we had to go to pilot initiatives initially, because we needed to find out those kinds of concerns and problems that the students would encounter. I want to confirm that there is a need for us to address those personal needs of the students and ensure that there's consistency in program service delivery, whether it's our department or whether it's Health and Social Services in conjunction with our department, or whether or not we work collectively with the boards and Nunavut Arctic College, as well. I think there has to be that cooperation. So, I have to agree with the honourable Member.

Hopefully, as a result of the comments that have been made and some of the concerns that will be raised, we can design our program to respond to those concerns that the honourable Member has raised.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

(Microphone turned off)...Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister -- I guess it's a few days until April 1st -- are your officials going to start delivering welfare on April 1st? The money is being transferred, I understand, for social assistance. Is this department now going to deliver welfare or, if not, when? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, if I could ask Mr. Gerein to give you the detail because there are still some things that will be cooperatively delivered and he can give you the detail as the process goes on.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks very much. Mr. Gerein.

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Gerein

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have split the actual transfer of program delivery into a couple of phases. We're initially going to be taking over the program management and accountability at the headquarters and regional levels effective April 1st. However, at the community level we will maintain the current delivery systems and individuals who are there in order that we have no reduction in client service for this coming year.

What we will be doing concurrently is running, I believe, 10 or 11 pilot projects in communities where we look at different delivery agents actually providing social assistance as income support, freeing up the social workers in those particular communities to address individual and family social counselling and other needs. So we're trying to look at a number of different models in 11 or 12 communities in terms of how we deliver social services better. And in those communities where we don't have these models, the social workers will continue to deliver social assistance but, in this case, be supported by the department staff at the regional and headquarters levels. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Just one final question, Mr. Chairman, and it doesn't have to be answered right away. I was intrigued by the Minister's explanation of why the department says the environmental technology program at Nunatta Campus was allocated $340,000 in funding to the college but I'm told that they spent much less than that. I guess that has prompted me to ask the Minister whether he can provide a breakdown. I know on page 15-20 we have $28 million, and the $12 million for Nunavut is divided into five categories. Would the Minister be willing to give more detail on how this is broken down, particularly the funding for base operations and programs? I would be very interested in getting that information because I would like to know why some programs seem to be getting less money from the college than is allocated for those programs by the department.

Perhaps these figures would help us determine how the college sets its own priorities and hold them accountable if they're not meeting the priorities of this House. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the concern the honourable Member raises is the very reason we wanted to establish an allocation system so we can ensure there is some accountability, including the tasks identified in our department, so there is accounting for priorities being set and so it is also responding to the general direction we want it to go as a department. Some priorities have to be established.

Now, what I will do is include all of those components, including a breakdown of programs and services being delivered by Nunavut Arctic College and the investments being made, as part of the information that I will write him.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Is there anyone else who would like to

make comments on culture and careers, on page 15-13, total O and M, $70.930 million? Are we concluded that item?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Education Development

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Page 15-14, education development. Total O and M, $146.909 million. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the special needs task is under this activity. The Minister told us earlier that there was an increase in special needs -- and it is no longer called special needs, Mr. Chairman, it is called inclusive schooling -- funding. I believe it was in the area of $1 million. I was wondering if the Minister could advise how this is distributed. Is there a formula set up? Can we get some details on how this funding is distributed to different school districts, please?

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

First of all with forced growth, there is an increase of $281,000. There is an increase in the formula to address the high incidence matter of $930,000. Generally speaking, that's based, I believe, on a formula basis. I would like to ask Mr. Gerein to respond specifically on the matter of the formula.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Gerein.

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Gerein

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is based on a formula which we can provide to the Member. What it does is basically adjusts the number of units for special needs assistance -- we still call it that in our own formula -- and we're changing it from 5.5 person years to 6.75 person years per 1,000 students, which results in the increases. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate Mr. Gerein's offer to provide the formula. I would appreciate seeing it. I wonder if we could find out if the formula is applied to every school district or if there's a cap in some districts.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Gerein.

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Gerein

Mr. Chairman, it's applied uniformly to all the boards. There are no caps. I believe this year we also made some minor adjustments for what we refer to as magnet communities, those communities which have added facilities, medical and otherwise, and stand to attract students with special needs to them. Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that under the task territorial schools, as a cost-saving measure, there has been a reduction in the formula for grants. I believe it totalled somewhere around $2 million and was cut from school district grants across the Northwest Territories. I'm just

wondering, what is the final comparison? Have we, in fact, achieved something through smoke and mirrors here? We've given school boards an increase in the formula for special needs but we've cut back even more on their financing for regular students so that, in effect, the net result in the school districts has been less rather than more.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, can we just have a moment? We'll get the information. Thank you. I would like to ask Mr. Devitt to respond to that.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Devitt.

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Devitt

Thank you. There have been a number of changes to the school funding formula and I'll just review them. We've increased inclusive schooling by $1.5 million which is on a school year basis. The high school residence formula was decreased $1.3 million, as discussed. We are increasing funding, although this isn't directly to school boards, for numeracy and literacy by $550,000 and there is, as mentioned, a $2.4 million reduction to territorial schools. Those are the changes to the contribution budget.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Devitt. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It sounds to me then that it is sort of a smoke and mirrors situation although, I suppose, the Minister could argue that by increasing the size of classes the school boards could, in fact, shift the money into special needs or inclusive schooling. I had suspected that was the case and wanted to bring it up. We've given $1 million on one side and taken away $2 million on another.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Is that comment or is that a question? Do you want to respond, Mr. Nerysoo?

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The problem with this is that there are other factors. There are forced growth situations of $2.9 million that weren't factored into that amount. The other thing is that there was an increase of $231,000 for the school formula due to growth. There was the issue of personnel. I don't want to confuse the honourable Member and not say that, yes, there will be a reduction of administrative costs but there's also been an ongoing increase and generally speaking, this does not take away from...

First of all, we have not reduced the surpluses that exist in the boards. The other point is that we've not taken away the opportunity for the boards, if there is an increase in their student population, to respond on a regular basis as is the normal case. I appreciate the concern but, again, it's an issue of trying to address the matter of our financial situation.

It's generally our view that there will be no significant problems. I can advise the honourable Member that if there are, I would be the first one to bring the issue back to my Cabinet colleagues. In the original discussions that we've had, it was as high as 10 per cent but I think that they now understand that it is about 2.5 and most of the boards have, in fact, responded very positively to this issue of the decrease.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that information. I think he's confirmed that I wasn't confused but, in fact, if the old formula was used it would have cost this government $2 million more. So there has been a $2 million cut to the school boards in what they are going to receive this year. As I understand, that's what he did confirm to me. We've taken away $2 million and added $1 million and I see that quite clearly.

One other comment I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, has to do with the draft document on improving children and youth services in our communities. Since the pilot project shows up under the definitive objectives as part of educational development, I assume this is the proper place to speak about it. I would like to thank the Minister for getting me a copy while we were in session this afternoon. I've read it. I recognize that it is just a draft but I would like to let the Minister know that I am somewhat concerned that it seems to me that this guideline misses the point in a large respect. I recognize that the Minister has said that his department doesn't want to be seen as imposing a program from the centre; they want it to be drafted with input from all of the districts. Unfortunately, I think that what has happened is that perhaps because the districts weren't exposed to the ideas, they've missed the point. What this looks like is a somewhat improved version of an interagency model which is not at all the sort of thing that I think the Standing Committee on Finance had hoped we would see a pilot project for.

This draft does not very clearly state, as a matter of fact it doesn't state at all, that the point of entry for people into our social network should be the schools or that that should be even one idea that a school district or community should consider. I don't know. We seem to have gone on and on about this over the last 18 months since the standing committee brought the idea forward. It doesn't seem to have much support, and with the end of this Assembly coming soon, I don't think it's likely that we will see a pilot project in this coming fiscal year which will, in fact, reflect the focus that we had hoped to see; that, by bringing the point of entry into the school, you force the agencies to cooperate. Rather than just meeting together to talk about cooperation, you bring the focus of the whole family into the school because that's where the whole family gets their treatment. Maybe that's going to come in the second draft. If it is, then I hope to see that. The only thing they talk about in this draft is spaces. The draft suggests communities could use some space in the school, it says, or perhaps they could use space in municipal buildings or perhaps even in people's homes. I think that misses the point.

Mr. Chairman, I think that it's obvious that the standing committee has been beating it's head against the wall if I read this correctly. I have to admit defeat, I guess.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Dent. On that note, Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, it's unfortunate, but I haven't even read the document myself and to be debating it now without knowing what the results are going to be, I don't want to say is irresponsible but I think it's premature because I have not had a chance to see what the boards are going to say in the document. I gave the document with the view that we would get more advice from the Member and not

necessarily get into debate about the draft of the document because I haven't read it yet. I tried to do it out of courtesy for my colleagues, rather than debate the document at this particular time. I apologize if the honourable Member feels that we are not responding but I thought I was doing it out of

courtesy to my colleagues; to get their advice if there are concerns that they have.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. I think it was appreciated. Mr. Dent.

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I won't admit defeat. I'll hope that the Minister will take my comments as advice and that I can expect to see some change in the next draft.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

He didn't really mean defeat. He didn't mean that.

---Laughter

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Dent. Any other comments on educational development? Mr. Patterson.

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I applaud the increase in special needs funding and I'm pleased that the Minister responded to the recommendation of SCOF. Has the pupil/teacher ratio changed in the formula for funding schools or is this left up to the individual boards? Thank you.

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. If I could ask Mr. Gerein to respond, please?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. Mr. Gerein.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Gerein

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At this point, Mr. Chairman, we have simply gone across the bottom line of the budgets based upon the formula as it would have been. If this persists as a way of having to deal with a school base formula, we are going to have to go into the formula and readjust it. We're not exactly sure at this point how each board will deal with these cuts within the board. They may choose, in fact, to take a significant portion of the reductions out of administration or other areas of flexibility which could result in minimal effect on pupil-teacher ratios. We're not exactly sure because, as the Member knows, these are basically contributions without strings attached, with the exception of the delivery of the educational programs. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

One other comment, Mr. Chairman. I've made a lot of noise about the changes to the funding of student residences and the study that the department undertook. I don't want to spend any more time on it today. Just to say that I am generally pleased with the way this episode has ended.

I am told by the Baffin divisional board that their recent meetings with the department were satisfactory. The Ukiivik residence will remain open in the coming year, but in a scaled down format, with reduced staff. I think a longer-term plan will give the board and the region time to develop longer-term plans, which I hope will include trades training and continue to emphasize advanced education for those students who need it.

So, I just want to say that I am satisfied with the way things turned out. I know the Minister thinks that I was unduly alarmed. But I think if I hadn't been unduly alarmed, it might not have turned out the way it did. All's well that ends well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay, that is your general comment, then. Anybody else on educational development.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

An Hon. Member

Agreed.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Agreed on this item then, $146.909 million.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

All right, we will go on to details of grants and contributions. Grants, educational development, grants total $10.41 million on page 15-15.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Contributions, culture and careers and educational development contributions, $179.432 million, on page 15-18.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Total grants and contributions, $189.842 million. Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, is it true that the president of the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association makes more money than a Cabinet Minister of the Government of the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Well, Mr. Chairman, all that I can say is that he is well paid for the job that he does.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay, Mr. Nerysoo, thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

I am told that the...I would like to ask the Minister, what is the president of the NWTTA paid? The money comes from this government under the collective agreement. How much does that individual get paid per annum?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. We don't have that figure. All that I can say to you is that under the detail of work performed on behalf of third parties, we budget $121,000 and that includes salary and benefits. We are not certain, in the final analysis, of the decision made by the NWTTA on the final salary.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

For the benefit of Members, that particular item is on 15-28; it is an information item and we will get to it eventually. Total grants and contributions, $189.842 million.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

An Hon. Member

Agreed.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Agreed.

---Agreed

Next, page 15-19, information item, colleges. Page 15-20, college funding allocation.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

An Hon. Member

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Page 15-21, information item, colleges. Page 15-22, another information item, detail of culture and careers. Page 15-23, information item. Page 15-24, detail of funding allocated to school boards.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

An Hon. Member

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Page 15-25, information item, divisional boards of education.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

An Hon. Member

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

The last information item here, page 15-26, information item student loan revolving fund.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

The next item, detail of work performed on behalf of third parties, total $1.61 million. Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

I would like to ask the Minister now, we do pay the salary out of public funds, could the Minister undertake to provide Members with how much the president of the NWTTA makes per annum? Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We don't pay the president's salary, we just deal with the administration of it. We made a decision to pay the NWTTA president as a matter that is left up to the NWTTA and those constituents.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make it clear that I am not trying to hold the Minister accountable for this salary. But, I do note that the monies are reported in our main estimates, they are public monies paid for through the collective agreement and I would just like to ask the Minister if he would ask, or beg, or request, or demand, that the NWTTA tell us what salary they have allocated for the president.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, just for the information of the honourable Member, the actual pay for the president's salary, if you look at 1993-94 was $119,000.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Do I understand that the Minister will get the information provided?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

It is just for clarification. It is salary, benefits, whatever is included. I will request the information. Whether or not I receive it from the NWTTA, it is up to them to make that decision.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks very much, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Patterson, are you done? Total department, we can go back to the beginning, programs summary, operations and maintenance total O and M, $221.403. Agreed.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

We have agreed that this department is concluded. Thank you very much, Mr. Nerysoo, also to Mr. Devitt and to Mr. Gerein, for your very helpful assistance.

On the list of items that Mr. Dent gave us at the beginning, we are now scheduled to go to Bill 29.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

The Chair Brian Lewis

In your books, it is Bill 29, under tab 29. Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995. Mr. Pollard, you will be introducing this bill, so maybe you would like to make opening comments.

Minister's Introductory Remarks

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 671

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Bill 29, Interim Appropriation Act April 1st to June 30, 1995, is required as the Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96. It is still under review by committee of the whole and will not be completed by April 1, 1995.

Mr. Chairman, the government requires interim appropriation authority by April 1, 1995 to allow expenditures to be made for continuing operations in accordance with the requirements of the Financial Administration Act.

The purpose of the Interim Appropriation Act is to obtain approval for appropriation authority for normal government operations for the first three months of the 1995-96 fiscal year, as well as the full value of contracts that must be entered into during the three-month period. In accordance with the Financial Administration Act, the full amount payable under these contracts during 1995-96 must be charged to an appropriation when the contract is signed.

The appropriation authority provided for in the Interim Appropriation Act will cease to have effect once the 1995-96 Appropriation Act, No. 2, comes into force. Mr. Chairman, I'm prepared to review the details of the interim appropriation and either answer Members' questions or refer them to the Ministers responsible.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Since this is an interim bill, would the Minister like to deal with this from his chair or from the witness stand?

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

John Pollard Hay River

I would like to bring in a witness, if I may, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Is that all right with Members? Mr. Sergeant-at-Arms, would you conduct the witness to the table.

The way we deal with this bill is to go through the detail first but, Mr. Pollard, before that, maybe you could introduce your witness.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have with me, Mr. Lew Voytilla, secretary to the Financial Management Board. Thank you.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

General comments on Bill 29. Are you ready to go into detail on this bill?

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Line By Line

Legislative Assembly

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

On page one of the interim appropriation are the amounts requested. It is under tab 29 and we will go into the detail amounts beginning on page 1 at the end of that bill.

Legislative Assembly, total Legislative Assembly, $4.388 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Executive

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Executive, executive offices, subtotal $2.648 million. Mr. Dent.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, most of the departments appear to be getting about 36 per cent in this interim appropriation and I notice that the Executive is getting about 47.7 per cent. Is this related to the high demand for VTA advances early in the new fiscal year?

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Pollard.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

John Pollard Hay River

That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay, we're on Financial Management Board Secretariat. Subtotal, $16.074 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Next ministry is Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs. Subtotal, $891,000.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Total executive, $19.613 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

NWT Housing Corporation

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Next is the NWT Housing Corporation, total, $17.721 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Finance

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Finance, total Finance, $3.253 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Personnel

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 672

The Chair Brian Lewis

Personnel, total Personnel, $1.031 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Renewable Resources

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

On the next page, Renewable Resources, total, $20.070 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Municipal And Community Affairs

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Municipal and Community Affairs, total MACA, $19.174 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Health And Social Services

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Health and Social Services, total, $83.817 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Energy, Mines And Petroleum Resources

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Next item, Energy, Mines & Petroleum Resources, total EM&PR, $1.375 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Economic Development And Tourism

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Next, Economic Development and Tourism, total, $13.327 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Education, Culture And Employment

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Next, Education, Culture and Employment, total, $78.688 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Total interim requested, total, $368.424 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Can we go back to the beginning of Bill 29? Sorry, Mr. Pollard.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I may be incorrect but I believe you didn't read into the record Justice, Safety and Public Services, Public Works and Transportation.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

You're correct, Mr. Pollard, because it's not in my book. I'm sorry, I'm missing page 2 in my book. I went from page 1 to page 3. I would like to check to make sure that Members have this page. I would like to take a two-minute break to do this properly. We will take a couple of minutes to get this copied so that all Members have it.

---SHORT RECESS

Department Of Justice

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Justice, total $36.529 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Safety And Public Services

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Safety and Public Services, total $1.871 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Public Works And Services

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Public Works and Services, total Public Works and Services, $43.054 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Transportation

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Transportation, total Transportation, $24.513 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

I'll read the total back into the record again. Total interim appropriation requested, $368.424 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause By Clause

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 673

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Pollard, very much for pointing that out to us. Could we go on to page 1 of Bill 29? Clause 1.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Clause 2.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Clause 3.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Clause 4.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Clause 5.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Clause 6.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

We're on the schedule, total appropriation on page 2, $368.424 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

I'm sorry, the schedule, vote I operations and maintenance, total appropriation, $368.424 million.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Bill as a whole.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Does the committee agree that Bill 29 is ready for third reading?

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Bill 29 is now ready for third reading. Thank you, Mr. Pollard, and thank you, Mr. Voytilla.

The committee had indicated they would like to go on to another department today. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Ballantyne.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

There's a motion on the floor to report progress. Those in favour of Mr. Ballantyne's motion? Those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will rise and report progress.

Bill 29: Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 674

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

The House will come back to order. We're on item 20, report of committee of the whole. Mr. Lewis.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 674

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering bills 1 and 29 and would like to report progress, and that Bill 29 is ready for third reading. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of committee of the whole be concurred with.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 674

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Seconder? Mr. Ningark. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 674

An Hon. Member

Question.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 674

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 21, third reading of bills. Item 22, Mr. Clerk, orders of the day.

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Page 674

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of the Special Joint Committee on Housing at 6:00 pm this evening. Meetings for tomorrow at 9:00 am of the Standing Committee on Finance; also at 9:00 am of the Standing Committee on Legislation; and, at 10:30 of the Ordinary Members' Caucus and at 12:00 noon of the Management and Services Board.

Orders of the day for Wednesday, March 29, 1995:

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

6. Oral Questions

7. Written Questions 8. Returns to Written Questions

9. Replies to Opening Address

10. Petitions

11. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

12. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

13. Tabling of Documents

14. Notices of Motion

15. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills

16. Motions

17. First Reading of Bills

- Bill 28, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and

Executive Council Act

- Bill 30, Deficit Elimination Act

18. Second Reading of Bills

19. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96

- Bill 13, An Act to Amend the Fair Practices Act

- Bill 16, An Act to Amend the Retirement Plan

Beneficiaries Act

- Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Elections Act, No. 2

- Bill 21, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95

- Committee Report 2-12(7), Report on the Legislative

Action Paper on the Office of Ombudsman for the

Northwest Territories

- Committee Report 3-12(7), Report on the Review of the

Legislative Action Paper Proposing New Heritage

Legislation for the Northwest Territories

- Committee Report 4-12(7), Report on the Review of the

1995-96 Main Estimates

20. Report of Committee of the Whole

21. Third Reading of Bills

- Bill 15, An Act to Amend the Elections Act

- Bill 29, Interim Appropriation Act, April 1 - June 30, 1995

22. Orders of the Day

Item 22: Orders Of The Day
Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Page 675

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. This House stands adjourned until Wednesday, March 29, 1995 at 1:30 pm.

---ADJOURNMENT