Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on the shortfalls for various divisional boards of education -- and it has been explained to me that these costs are only a portion of the board costs that relate to services provided by the government -- I would like to ask the Minister of Finance there are some pretty healthy numbers here just from the detail provided to me, I see that the Keewatin divisional board overspent their budget by $740,000 last...No, $1.135 million last year. There was a sizeable overexpenditure in the South Slave the previous year, and $332,000 in the Sahtu. I'm just picking a few here from the information given to me.

Mr. Chairman, I guess what I would like to ask the Minister is, is there a policy in the Government of the Northwest Territories to require boards of education to manage their money through recovering deficits and allowing them to retain a portion of surpluses, the way we deal with hamlets, for example? I know there are incentives of that kind in place. Does the Department of Education have similar incentives to encourage good financial management for divisional boards of education? Thank you.

I would ask if the Minister of Education could answer that question please, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In fact, Mr. Chairman, we allow the boards to retain all their surpluses at this particular juncture. There are no reductions in the surpluses. The problem that we've had in some cases is there has been overutilization of the resources to the point where they've overexpended and created positions for which they are now liable; in other words, permanent positions. That has caused some of the problems we're encountering right now. There are more people hired than really should be, based on the normal formula. We do not restrict the ability of the boards to hire additional staff on a term basis but that has not been happening in some situations. In fact, what has been happening is they have been hiring permanent positions and we have the responsibility and liability.

Mr. Chairman, we've also sent direction that there is a need to establish recovery plans for all boards who are in a deficit position and we have, as a department, been working with them. We believe it's their responsibility to manage the resources that they receive and, therefore, they should be responsible for a recovery plan. The problem with that is sometimes all schools suffer in the process but it's a necessary evil, as part of the responsibility you assume for managing money.

One other point, Mr. Chairman, is there was a concern about the liability for long-term staff but we pick up, as a government, those liabilities and costs, full costs.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I note the Minister of Education states that boards are allowed to recover all surpluses but this document suggests that some of these costs have been offset and would have been double, had it not been for the recovery of divisional board surpluses. So it looks to me, in 1994-95 at least, that the boards that did manage their money wisely and did achieve surpluses were robbed to help the ones that overspent. Is that not what the document says, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the supplementary appropriation that's before us deals with direct service funding shortfalls and I think the Minister of Education was talking about the overall surpluses and deficits of the boards. In the one before us right now, if there is a funding shortfall, we cover it for a board. If there is a surplus, then we take the surplus back. This is different than the area the Minister was discussing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to get further clarification from the Minister of Education, he says that direction has been given that boards have to have a recovery plan where they're in a deficit. Is this just a request of the board or is that request backed up by a reduction of the grant in order to make up the shortfall? Thank you.

I think, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Patterson directed that question directly to the Minister of Education. Thank you.

Thank you. On the matter of financial matters, a directive can be issued by the Minister to a board in those particular matters. The other point is, there is no reduction in the formula. In fact, what we ask is based on the formula that has been assigned; formula dollars. They have to develop a recovery plan for that board, whether it is the South Slave divisional board or the Keewatin. They are responsible for developing the recovery plan. We, as a department, work in conjunction with those boards so we have a sense of where it is they are going to reduce their liabilities. One of the problems we've had is we've had expenditures that have far exceeded the revenues; in other words, far exceeded the amount of money they're actually allocated.

I just want to be clear in the context of the comments made by Mr. Pollard. The dollars you are looking at, where it reads they are offset by recovery of divisional board surpluses, are not surpluses of the formula dollars. These are the actual number of dollars voted for O and M, DPW costs, and those kinds of associated costs. What happened is, in some cases the dollars were assigned to various boards and we found we had surpluses in that area and had shortfalls in the three boards before us. So we could then reassign the dollars because we didn't need to spend them on O and M costs in other regions.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Agreed.

---Agreed