Mr. Chairman, there were two shareholders to that particular corporation. I don't know the name of the company that they were operating under. Mr. Chairman, I would seek your counsel with regards to whether or not I should read the names of the people into the record. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Debates of April 10th, 1995
Topics
Bill 22: Forgiveness Of Debts Act, 1994-95
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 927
John Pollard Hay River
Bill 22: Forgiveness Of Debts Act, 1994-95
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 927
The Chair Brian Lewis
Yes, Mr. Pollard, I believe the whole purpose of a numbered account achieves a couple of purposes, but I would like to get legal advice if one of them is in fact to avoid disclosure of all the principals in that company.
Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Pollard. There are several numbered companies on this list and I would like to get some legal advice before I would agree to answer your question. So the choice would be to leave it until we have that advice as to whether that is in order or not. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.
Bill 22: Forgiveness Of Debts Act, 1994-95
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 927
Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha
I don't know how long it is going to take to obtain the legal advice needed, Mr. Chairman, but the other one that I wanted to question was another numbered
company, so I would appreciate if we could obtain some legal advice, taking into account the amount of funding that is being requested of this House to forgive these debts. So I would appreciate finding out whether or not we can determine who the debtors are in this case. Thank you.
Bill 22: Forgiveness Of Debts Act, 1994-95
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
The Chair Brian Lewis
I can't get this in just one minute. Do the Members agree that we leave this item until we get that advice?
Bill 22: Forgiveness Of Debts Act, 1994-95
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Bill 22: Forgiveness Of Debts Act, 1994-95
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
The Chair Brian Lewis
Agreed. Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Pollard. We will leave this bill and come back to it once we have answered the question to the satisfaction of Members. Thank you, Mr. Voytilla.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
The Chair Brian Lewis
Intergovernmental And Aboriginal Affairs
We're on the next item, Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, on page 02-39 of the main estimates. Mr. Kakfwi, you're the Minister responsible. Do you have any opening comments? Mr. Kakfwi.
Mr. Kakfwi, before the break we agreed that after dealing with the bills, we'd go back to the main estimates. Since we agreed to go to 02-39, Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, and since you're now in the House and are the Minister, do you have any opening comments to make to us on this item in the estimates?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
The Chair Brian Lewis
Go ahead.
Minister's Introductory Remarks
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 928
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Thank you. The Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs is responsible for several important tasks which are within the Cabinet's strategic planning priorities. The tasks include self-government negotiations, community transfer initiatives, settlement of land claims and their implementation, devolution and intergovernmental affairs. In its O and M budget, the ministry proposes expenditures in 1995-96 of $4.2 million. Members will notice that this is an increase of $240,000 over the Minister's 1994-95 budget of $4 million.
The ministry has identified several areas in the budget where reductions are proposed in an effort to show fiscal restraint. The most significant of these are: $138,000 from the community transfer, O and M; $100,000 from grants and contributions for community transfers; and, $88,000 in the directorate.
The largest proposed increase is $400,000 which results from the added efforts required for the negotiation of self-government agreements over the next several years. The federal government has been supporting the commencement of negotiations and this government is expected to be a party to those negotiations. These negotiations, in part, will serve to shape the future of government in the Northwest Territories. The proposed increase will be used for contributions to municipalities to allow a more informed participation in self-government discussions and for salaries to hire analysts and negotiators.
An increase of $200,000 is proposed for the implementation of a grants and contributions to aboriginal organizations policy, specifically as it relates to special events. Up until this point, funding of $250,000 had been budgeted for core funding for NWT Metis locals, and no funds had been budgeted for the special events component of the policy.
Mr. Chairman, the ministry currently has 24 person years under vote 1. There are three vacancies. Of the 21 employees, ten, or 48 per cent, are "indigenous" or long-term residents and six, or 29 per cent, are aboriginal. The ministry also has six approved person years under vote 4 for the implementation of land claims.
In summary, Mr. Chairman, the Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs budget proposals reflect the political and constitutional challenges that face this government and its successor over the next few years. As Members can see in the listed definitive objectives, Mr. Chairman, the ministry has an important role in coordinating and leading the government's response to these challenges and recommending to government strategic options for the future.
Finally, in line with the ministry's responsibility for coordination of political and constitutional development activities, I would like to briefly respond to Standing Committee on Finance recommendations numbers 10 and 11 regarding the intergovernmental function of the ministry and the Ottawa office.
The first recommendation states that: "The committee recommends that the Premier ensure that sufficient resources are provided to the government's office in Ottawa to enable the government to increase its presence in the nation's capital, so as to ensure that the Northwest Territories is adequately represented in discussions regarding financial, constitutional, self-government and other important issues."
This recommendation is related to number 11 which states that: "The committee recommends that in the next government, the duties of the Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs Ministry be divided and further, that the next Premier assume responsibility for the intergovernmental affairs responsibilities."
As background, Mr. Chairman, Members should note that this government, at the beginning of its mandate, decided to merge the Aboriginal Rights Affairs Secretariat, the Devolution office and the office of Intergovernmental Affairs under a single Minister in order to implement the "comprehensive approach to political and constitutional development" which was adopted by the Legislative Assembly in 1991.
The comprehensive approach was based on the principle that the elements of political and constitutional development, including land claims; division; devolution of land, water, oil, gas and minerals; western constitutional development; aboriginal self-government; national constitutional reform; and, intergovernmental relations are all interconnected with each other and could not be dealt with in isolation.
It was agreed then that a separate Minister, and not the Premier, would assume responsibility for the ministry because of the importance of the comprehensive approach, the heavy workload associated with the ministry's responsibilities and the time commitment that would be involved in representing the Northwest Territories during the national constitutional discussions. Mr. Chairman, the Government of the Northwest Territories is not alone in having a separate Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Four provinces and the federal government have similar arrangements.
We should take note that this approach does not prevent the Premier and other Ministers from participating in intergovernmental issues. For example, the Premier represents the Northwest Territories in all western Premiers' conferences, annual Premiers' conferences and First Ministers' meetings. She is provided full support by the intergovernmental affairs branch of the ministry in preparing and attending these meetings. In addition, NWT Ministers regularly meet their provincial and federal counterparts.
Mr. Chairman, the political and constitutional work of the government is not yet completed. I believe the comprehensive approach to addressing these issues continues to be critical to their successful conclusion. Having said this, I am encouraged that standing committee Members recognize the valuable role played by the Ottawa office in representing the interests of the Northwest Territories to Ottawa. I also agree with standing committee Members that the role of the Ottawa office has evolved and expanded since its incorporation into the Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs. I am committed to fully review the functions of that office and the intergovernmental affairs responsibilities of the ministry, taking into account the useful recommendations of the Standing Committee on Finance, and report on that review to the Premier and Cabinet in the near future. Thank you.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
The Chair Brian Lewis
Thank you very much, Minister Kakfwi. The chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance or his delegate. Mr. Antoine.
Standing Committee On Finance Comments
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the second year in a row, the Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs was unable to appear before the Standing Committee on Finance for the review of the 1995-96 main estimates. Committee Members would prefer to have dealt with this ministry in January; however, the Members of the standing committee are now prepared to perform a detailed review of the ministry and its estimates here in the House.
The Ministry of Aboriginal and Intergovernmental Affairs has many important tasks:
new constitutional challenges in Quebec; important developments in transfer payments; and, devolution of responsibility from the federal government; new developments in circumpolar cooperation; PanArctic environmental concerns; unresolved land claims; the community transfer initiative; the creation of Nunavut; and, constitutional development in the western NWT. In short, many of the most important issues facing northerners today are all part of the responsibilities of this ministry.
Many of these issues are ones where much can be done to improve the lives of northerners.
Community transfer is one which has held much hope for government services to be provided closer to the people. Providing these services with local leadership in the community, rather than from a distant territorial capital or regional office, holds the promise of being more effective, more efficient, and more in keeping with the actual needs and desires of northern residents.
Committee Members are concerned, however, that this ministry is not providing the leadership role it should be to the rest of the territorial government on these matters. The Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs should be taking the lead role on all of these issues; providing support and advice to individual department, where necessary. However, while the goals and objectives of the ministry suggest that this is indeed the case, it appears that the individual departments are doing all the work, especially in intergovernmental affairs. The perception is that the ministry has not adequately identified its priorities and it's not providing the leadership necessary in these important matters.
Returning to the example of the transfer initiative, committee Members are concerned that in the three years since this initiative was introduced, only two substantial transfers of responsibility to communities have taken place: in Cape Dorset and in Fort Good Hope. The standing committee feels that much more can be done in this area, as in other areas. Committee Members hope that the discussion we will have today will help the Minister and his ministry improve their performance on this and other initiatives.
Although the Minister did not appear before the standing committee, committee Members have considered these issues in their review of the main estimates.
Recommendation 10, included in the chapter on the Executive, recommends that the Premier ensure that sufficient resources are provided to the government's office in Ottawa to ensure that the Northwest Territories is adequately represented in discussions on important issues.
Recommendation 11 in the same chapter recommends that in the next government, the duties of this ministry should be divided, and that the next Premier should have responsibility for intergovernmental affairs.
We will address these recommendations specifically when we review the estimates of the Executive. Mr. Chairman, we have a number of specific questions for the Minister here in the House, as these are important issues which fall under his responsibility. Mahsi, Mr. Chairman.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 929
The Chair Brian Lewis
Thank you very much, Mr. Antoine. We have completed the departmental comments and the
committee comments. Would the Minister like to now take the witness table and have some help there?
Okay, the Minister has nodded. How do Members feel about that? Would you like him to now bring in his witnesses so we can deal with detail on this department? Agreed?
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Brian Lewis
Okay, Sergeant-at-Arms.
Thank you very much, Members. Mr. Kakfwi, you have some witnesses with you, perhaps for the record you could tell us who they are.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu
Thank you. On my left, the deputy minister, Bob Overvold. On my right, the director of finance and administration, Terryl Allen.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Brian Lewis
Welcome. I would like to ask Members for comments, but I have been asked by the Standing Committee on Finance, since they have made a detailed analysis of the department, if we could recognize them first of all because they've prepared some general comments or questions. I believe Mr. Antoine would like to begin.
General Comments
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before we start to discuss the budget of this ministry, I have an important request for the Minister. When the Standing Committee on Finance discusses the main estimates with the Members of Cabinet, we have access to budget detail at the task level; however, we were unable to discuss the budget of this ministry in that detail with the Minister in January.
That same level of budget detail is not available to Members here in committee of the whole; the documents available here include detail only down to the activity level. As well, this ministry's budget consists of only one activity. Therefore, I think the Members present need to be able to see the ministry's budget in more detail in order that we can properly review it here in the House. Could the Minister please provide the Members with the details of this ministry's budget down to the task level, as included in the documents provided to the Standing Committee on Finance? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Brian Lewis
Mr. Kakfwi.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Brian Lewis
Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Antoine.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Jim Antoine Nahendeh
If we could have that and distribute it. Thank you.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Brian Lewis
Several other Member of the Standing Committee on Finance want to make general comments or general statements, I don't know in which order. So if the Members who are on that committee would like to continue from when Mr. Antoine left off, I will recognize them. Mr. Zoe.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
Henry Zoe North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am also a Member of the Standing Committee on Finance and I brought a copy of my task-level detail. I would like to get into specific questioning for the Minister.
With regard to the policy and coordination section. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, how many staff are in the policy and coordination division of the ministry? And I would also like to know what is the total cost of their salaries and wages?
The reason that I am asking this, Mr. Chairman, is that the budget documents say that there are 7.1 PYs for $611,000 in the directorate, presumably including the deputy minister's position, the executive assistant, and an executive secretary. But I note in our government telephone directory, it says only three other staff: a director, a policy and planning analyst, and a special advisor. So, for those reasons, I am asking this particular question. I wonder if the Minister could provide me with an answer, because what is in the budget documents is different than the telephone directory for both of these figures. Thank you.
Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 930
The Chair Brian Lewis
Thank you, Mr. Zoe. I should remind Members that we are now dealing with a level of detail that has been available for the reasons that Mr. Antoine has given. Mr. Kakfwi, if you can respond.