Thank you, we will pause momentarily while the motion is being distributed.

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour of the motion, please signify. All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Clause 15, as amended.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 16 of Bill 25.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 17.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Qujannamiik. Clause 18.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 19. God bless you. Mr. Koe.

Thank you. Clause 19.(3) sets the qualifications for a child who's eligible. Are there any provisions for exceptions or is this the rule, even if we have a potential Einstein who's born on December 29th, you know, one or two days before. There's no exception if this particular clause passes?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee asked for certainty in it. The matter on this is that the Members asked for certainty in this area. We amended the legislation to respond to the Members so that parents can plan and know that there are no exceptions, this is the rule. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Clause 19. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 20.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause 21. Agreed? Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From the comments that the honourable Member has made, just to confirm, Mr. Chairman, our view; we share the same views expressed by the honourable Member. It's certainly our intention to ensure that there are comparative standards between those programs that are offered in our existing public denominational school programs...that we can compare with the north and also compare with other Canadian circumstances.

In this particular case, there are no regulations to be written. It will be criteria identifying standards and learning objectives. That's the basis on which we're going to consider the whole matter of private schools. The comments the honourable Member has made with regard to standards of excellence, comparative programming with other jurisdictions in this country, and what is normally an acceptable program, acceptable for post-secondary institutions, is the other component. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Clause 21. Mr. Koe.

I would like some clarification on section (3), where the Minister can cancel or suspend registration of a school and what (b) says, "in the opinion of the Minister, the students are not achieving acceptable progress." In other parts of the act, we give parents some responsibility and they can participate in working out educational plans. My question is what say does a parent have with regard to this section?

Thank you. First of all, as parents, they are enrolling their children in a private school which has agreed to certain educational programs and certain educational standards. They have made the determination that their children should be part of that program. What this particular component allows us to do is to indicate that in comparative terms, the program is not meeting what has been agreed to in terms of the educational programs and the standards.

Then we have to take the view that they're not performing the agreement that has been reached between the private school and the Minister. In that context, there has to be a decision by the Minister to address the matter of the school. That's the basis on which the parents are involved and the basis on which any decision is made to remove, suspend or cancel the registration of a private school.

Thank you. Clause 21.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 22.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 23. Mr. Koe.

Under clause 23, the student representative may attend public meetings of the district educational authority. Can they attend public meetings of divisional education councils? Why is it only limited to the district education authority?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The matter that is before you is a matter of the students being involved in the community schooling arrangement. That's the reason why it's not a matter of the division.

Thank you. Clause 23. Mr. Koe.

There's nothing restricting the student rep from going to the public meetings, right? I just want that clarification. They can attend public meetings of divisional education councils?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. There's nothing in the legislation that is restrictive with regard to attendance at divisional education council meetings. What this deals with is ensuring that there is representation with the district education authority. That is what we've made a commitment to include.

Thank you. Clause 23. Mr. Koe.

The other point I would like to make, again, is qualifications, and the big qualification is that the principal shall set the guidelines. Does the guidelines set by the principal, only pertain to the selection of the student rep or is it to the participation of the student rep in the district education authority meetings? Principals don't have any authority at the DEA level. I would like clarification there.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. The honourable Member is correct; it just deals primarily with the matter of selection.

Mahsi. Clause 23. Mr. Koe.

I agree.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you very much, Mr. Koe. You got my vote. Clause 24. Mr. Koe.

Here, the student has been selected by the principal or under rules selected by the principal. I assume that the student's peers would select the representative but under the rules made by the principal, and then the student can now attend public meetings of the district authority. Again, I raise the same question, what about attending, as a student rep, divisional education council meetings?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

I don't believe there is anything in the present legislation that allows for it but nothing precludes it, either. This is primarily to ensure that we have student representation in determining matters that are local and that affect them directly in their schools. How the divisional education council deals with student participation is certainly a matter for them to decide. We wanted to ensure that students were participating in their particular community in their school.

Qujannamiik. Clause 24, I believe.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 25. Yes, Mr. Koe.

I would just like to make a few comments on this section, parents' participation. It pertains to both clauses 25 and 26. There have already been many changes to these sections dealing with parents' participation, and I would like to make a few more comments on this issue.

I believe that today many parents have abrogated their responsibilities for their children; that is, it seems that many parents just don't care. They don't care about what happens to their children once their children leave home. I believe they feel that school is like a babysitting establishment and once a child is there it is up to the teachers and the principals to look after that child.

This shouldn't be the case. I believe parents have to care and they have to get involved in the education of their children. Many years ago, there used to be home and school associations which were quite active in the running and the activities in the schools, and these have eventually changed to community education councils, now to be known as district education authorities. Today, there are very rarely elections held for education councils. Most members are acclaimed or they get appointed to fill the vacancies. In this act, a lot of authority and responsibility will be given to the education authorities.

Therefore, it is in the interests of parents to get involved in the governance of our education system. Parents can no longer sit back and complain. To make changes or guide the process of education, you must get involved.

I would also like to comment about the responsibilities of parents to get involved in school activities by volunteering. This is not in the act, but I believe it should be mentioned. I know that many times school activities have been cancelled because they don't have enough supervisors or chaperones. Mr. Chairman, parents have to get more involved in their children's activities, many of which happen through the school. By volunteering for school activities, chaperoning dances, trips, sporting events, outings and the various clubs in the schools, they get to appreciate the qualities of their children, of the teachers and of the whole education system. Another area which should be mentioned was raised by the Yellowknife Education District No. 1 in their presentation to the committee; that is, we have rights as parents to participate, and sections 25 and 26 outline those, but we don't have any clauses that outline the consequences if they do not respond to what's in the act. I'll quote from Yellowknife Education District No. 1, " Educators must have the right and opportunity to appeal parental actions if they feel that they are not in the best educational interests of the child. The rights and responsibilities must be equal and reciprocal."

So, Mr. Chairman, these are some of the comments I wish to make respecting the roles and responsibilities of parents. Mahsi.

Thank you very much, Mr. Koe. Clause 25. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some difficulty in the wording of section 25(1). It says that: " A parent of a student is entitled, and has the responsibility, to be informed of the progress, behaviour and attendance of a the student and to be involved in making decisions that significantly affect the education, health or safety of the student." I agree with that concept, but I think that the parents have to be involved in the progress of the student. That opportunity should be available to the parents, to be involved in whichever way they can be in the whole process. The wording, "has the responsibility, to be informed", I think, is the other way around. I think it's the responsibility of the educational institution to make sure that the parent is entitled to the student's progress in the educational system, rather than saying it's up to the parent. I don't really know what the wording here means, but it should be stronger than that.

I see an educational system as a holistic approach, and it shouldn't be separate from the everyday life of a whole family. The family has to be involved in the educational process. This section allows that to happen, but I think the wording should be a little more clear than what it is. I would like to ask the Minister if he understands what I am talking about and if there is any way to strengthen that section? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Actually, we thought, Mr. Chairman, that section 25 and 26 really incorporated exactly what the honourable Member has mentioned, because the present, existing bill really had nothing to do with, or nothing to say about parents' participation. So that was our intention. We thought from our review through the standing committee that we added a few clauses that actually incorporated and responded to that. So the comments of the honourable Member are actually incorporated in both clauses. There is a component that I think Mr. Koe mentioned that you can't always rely on the system itself to be responsible for your child. At some time, as a parent, you have a responsibility to be part of the process.

What this section also does is it not only ensures responsibility, but it also indicates that parents are entitled to be part of the process now. Historically, they have not been involved in the process, and what we are saying here is that they are entitled to be part of it, but part of that entitlement also includes a responsibility to participate.

The other thing is, there were additional educational health and safety matters because previously, in the Education Act, one only focused on educational programming and I think the standing committee said there is the issue of health and safety for a student who is attending school and there are concerns that, as educators, we might not be aware of, in the home or in the community that could be causing problems. We wanted to include all those components, certainly in response to the comments the honourable Member has made.

Thank you. Clause 25. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make the further comment that I think this section is good in the act. As the Minister said, in the past, parents weren't really involved. I'm thinking way back, looking back on my education, when my father, who speaks only Dene, was never involved in the education process. The language, alone, did not allow him to be involved in the education of myself and the rest of my family, and I think that's the case with a lot of people here from my generation. But now it's different.

I think a lot of parents today are beginning to get involved in the education of their children more. They have to be assured that the Education Act allows them to be involved in the education of students. My point earlier was that this section allows that to happen, but the wording is kind of vague. So, I would like to make sure that the wording is clear, that the parents do get involved in the education of their children in this new act. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister. Agreed? Clause 25. Mr. Zoe.

Thank you. I believe that was a point you wanted to make. Or did you want to make a motion? Mr. Minister.

If I could, there is just one matter I think we should be clear about. If a parent is to be involved, they have to be informed, so a parent has to be informed first,

before they're actually involved in the decisions. That's why it was put in the context it was.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, are you done? Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

Mr. Chairman, it does all the things that the honourable Member mentioned. We were just trying to...

Thank you. Clause 25.

Agreed,

---Agreed

Thank you. We move on to clause 26 of Bill 25.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause 27. Mr. Dent.

Sorry, I got distracted by my clerk. Mr. Minister.

Based on the information here, the student would be considered absent if they weren't excused. But I'll ask Ms. Whitehouse to help me out in clarifying this particular matter.

Thank you. Ms. Whitehouse.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under this paragraph, the principal may excuse the student from attending for such period as the principal may direct, and there are examples of the kinds of things the principal may excuse a student from attending school for. If the principal does not excuse the student, then the student is considered to be absent. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. To clause 27. Mr. Koe.

Thank you. I agree with the intent of the act that it should be definitive in the actions that one should take, but if the act is to be more permissive and open in dealing with students, I believe the presentation made by the Status of Women made a good point. We always seem to discipline someone after the damage has been done, after they have been away for a long time, for example, and we don't do any preventative work upfront. The Status of Women, in their presentation to the Standing Committee on Legislation, said there should be an obligation for the school to contact the parent or student when there is prolonged absence or poor attendance.

Another area of concern was the lack of counselling support for students. They said, "contact and follow-up is often not made until the student is experiencing major difficulties with attendance and/or behaviour. There is nothing in the bill to define the role of a counsellor or to require provision of counselling by education bodies." Again, in this act there is a specific section that refers to the principal and I assume by referring to the principal, we refer to him or his subordinates. It's just a point that I thought was worthwhile raising; the Status of Women raised it. The Status of Women raised it and it's worthy of comment. I'm not sure ... Maybe it's already in here or maybe there's something we can add to strengthen this section. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister, did you want to make a comment on Mr. Koe's comments? Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to advise that the district education authority or the divisional education council can set out the appropriate guidelines and the basis by which these elements can be applied as well. It's not simply a matter of the principal just doing it on their own. You've got to read again how these elements fit. The district educational authority can, in fact, develop the appropriate guidelines, the appropriate internal policies that will respond to this whole matter of the excuses in the agreements.

The other component that's part of this, which historically has probably never been part of it, is the agreement of parents being part of the process, as well.

Thank you. Clause 27. Mr. Koe.

I raise that because in clause 28, again, there's a very definite clause there in terms of anybody who doesn't comply with 27.(2) is guilty of an offence. I think I'll make some comments when we get to that one, but there are definite responsibilities and I think the comments made about preventative work warrant some consideration. I know we're limited again by budgets and the amount of staff that we can have doing this type of work but I think it has to be considered when dealing with the act. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under section 27, with regard to attendance, (3)(b), (c), and also (4), is with regard to being excused by the principal for students to participate in traditional activities on the land and other learning experiences

and also to participate in a spiritual or religious observance recognized by an authority or teachings to which the student adheres; but, mainly to be excused as the principal may direct in order to allow the students to participate in traditional activities on the land.

I take offence to the word "excused," Mr. Chairman, because it's like we're leaving the traditional lifestyles to be subservient to the educational program. As a Dene person, I take offence with that "he may be excuse& type of thing. Maybe traditional pursuits on the land have to be recognized in this act here as something that is very substantial. The education program today doesn't teach our young people how to go out on the land. To be excused to do that makes it sound as if it's something that we need permission for.

I would like to tell the Minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, that if they could find another word for it, I would really appreciate it. When a young person goes out on the land, for example, in my area, a lot of the communities go out on the land in the fall, for the fall moose hunt. They all take off and don't go to school for maybe a week or 10 days. They do learn a lot out on the land; they learn how to put food on the table; they learn how to take care of themselves on the land and this is a very valuable experience for a lot of the young people.

In the wintertime, as well, when they go out on the land, it's a good experience, too, and they learn quite a bit about how to survive out there. I know the intent of this section but I just don't like the words "being excused" to do the things that some elders tell us we need to do more of. So if, through you, Mr. Chairman, the Minister could respond to that, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the comments that the honourable Member has made. I just want to say this though, these are actually the exemptions. You have to look at it in the context of exemptions from mandatory attendance. Excused is used in the context of with permission being part of a program other than an educational program. The on-the-land traditional programs could, for that matter, include participation in a community hunt. However, that's an educational component. These are in addition to the educational programming itself. One can't look at it simply in the context of on-the-land programs that are not organized as part of the school programming because that can be done.

These are the exceptions to mandatory attendance. This is what we're trying to get at. By using excused, we're talking about with permission already having been granted. That's the way in which it would read. Let me give you one example: a good conference that some people have attended, Dream Catchers, that's a program that has been outside traditional in terms of educational programming. That is one of those components that we're talking about, a lot of aboriginal people being part of a major conference or, for that matter, a major event that might happen, a spiritual gathering that might occur in the region or in a community, that might be another component.

That's the kind of stuff we're talking about. It wasn't intended to say that there are restrictions but those are components by which those additional approvals can be given. I don't want to make it difficult but that was the interpretation. Those are the exceptions, like I said, to the program. In the programming, we then include the on-the-land cultural component as well.

Thank you. Clause 27. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Just a brief question on clause 27.(2). In the school year now, a student will obviously have to come to school on time, but students have different attendance patterns and that's something that will probably be a reality for the rest of time. If a student continues to be tardy, who will enforce the punishment? How many times do you plan on contacting the parents regarding their child's tardiness? How much time would be provided to ensure that this tardiness problem is alleviated and you contact the parents as well as the education bodies? That was my question, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The matter is resolved under the school rules and also the guidelines that would be set out by the district authority. As a Minister, I wouldn't want to get involved in those day-to-day issues until it became more a policy issue than the day-to-day responsibilities of the district education authority.

Thank you. Clause 27. Mr. Minister.