Thank you. There is a motion on the floor to defer clause 10. To the motion. Mr. Minister, did you want to speak to the motion?

(Microphone turned off)

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Clause 10 of Bill 25 is deferred.

Clause 11.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Qujannamiik. Clause 12. Mr. Koe.

I would just like to say for the record that for clauses 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 --and I only want to say it once --we have to respect treaty and aboriginal rights because all these clauses have the word "tuition" in them, and I want to make the record very clear that I'm very concerned about setting tuition fees on aboriginal people. I'm opposed to that at this stage.

Thank you. Your concern is duly noted. Mr. Minister.

Just for the advice of my honourable colleagues, there is already a section in the existing Education Act which deals with this particular matter. So we're taking that as part of a change, that we're allowing this particular matter to be part of the responsibility of the district education authorities and the divisional educational councils.

One other thing that I want to advise the honourable Member of is that we do take note of the concern. It was one of the discussions we held with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs on the matter of transportation and other tuition matters. I believe in Yellowknife we resolved it. Some of these issues can be resolved, with the discussion of the department itself. So we have already noted that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

HON, RICHARD NERYSOO: I'll ask Ms. Whitehouse to respond, please.

Thank you. Ms. Whitehouse.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a general penalty provision that basically anyone can enforce. It is aimed at a parent of a child who has not yet become a student, so a social agency could enforce it, the school itself or a citizen of the Northwest Territories could report a person under (2) and start the process.

Thank you. Clause 12. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you. I'll ask Ms. Whitehouse to respond again.

Ms. Whitehouse.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are two sections in the act that the Member is referring to. Section 12 deals with the requirement to register a child. Section 27 of the proposed bill is the section that requires attendance once a child is registered as a student. It is section 27 that the act provides the school and the principal to enforce. Under section 12, until a child is registered with a school, the school can't enforce the attendance of that child. This section is simply to require the parent to register the child with a school. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Clause 12. I have Mrs. Thompson and Mr. Antoine. Mrs. Thompson.

Mr. Chairman, the question I was going to ask is who will initiate charges, and it's already been answered. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you. On clause 12, the section on registration and tuition, I am in the same position as my colleague, Mr. Fred Koe, with regard to treaty rights. Instead of charging the aboriginal people to go to school, this is part of the treaty rights.

In section 12, I would like to ask if this is a new section of the act. Was it in the act before; section 12.(1), where a parent has to register a child between the ages of six and 16 in school? Is this a new thing in this act? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the whole matter of tuition fees was a matter that was in the previous Education Act. What is new in this particular component is the requirement to register children from ages six to 16. That is the requirement now, but this is nothing new.

The honourable Member, as well, in his motion regarding the amendment to clause 4, was intending to ensure that we wore protecting the rights of aboriginal people. It would then affect all the sections and all the components in the legislation, as well.

The other thing that is important to consider though is that we have had a number of discussions with Indian and Northern Affairs. This whole matter of treaty rights or aboriginal rights is an outstanding one. While we are administrating the system, those issues, in my view, still have to be resolved between the aboriginal groups, the treaty people and the federal government. But it's certainly not our intention in any way to take away rights that may exist or, for that matter, obligate the federal government to assume its responsibility in this area. So we support the comments made by the honourable Member.

Thank you. Clause 12. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister told us that section 12.(1) is a new section that is not in the current Education Act. There is a requirement here to register a child of six years of age up to 16 years of age. I would like to ask the Minister why the department saw fit to have this clause included in this act? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Maybe I could ask Ms. Whitehouse to explain, but I believe what is intended is that there is a requirement to register children in school or a school program for the purpose of ensuring that we apply the

compulsory education component. There has been a number of comments made by Members of the House that there is a need and there should be a requirement for children to attend school. So we need them to register in order for us to apply the rules in subsequent sections of this legislation.

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Going on to section 12.(2), there is an offence and a punishment, where if a person does not register a child, he or she is guilty of an offence and has to pay a $100 fine per child, I take it.

We are told that anybody can lay this charge, and that's kind of ambiguous. Maybe that's one of the reasons they have section 1 here so as to try to start collecting money from parents who don't register their children. Later in this act, you talk about a hefty fine of about $500 for a child who doesn't go to school. So it's a way of identifying who should be in school and, if a person is out of school, the district will collect money from them.

My question is, if a conviction with a fine of $100 can be brought down upon a person for not registering his or her child, what is the next step? What do you do? Is there a process for this person to appeal that? I am thinking about a community where there's no employment. It could be someone who has very limited funds. If a person cannot pay the $100, what happens then? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.

I will ask Ms. Whitehouse to explain, but I just want to advise the honourable Member, this is a maximum fine. That doesn't necessarily mean that's what the fine is going to be. But I will ask Ms. Whitehouse to explain.

Thank you. Ms. Whitehouse.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What the Minister said is correct. The fine is a maximum, and the amount of $100 is set there as a guideline for the court to indicate partially the seriousness of the offense and the maximum penalty. A fine is not the only penalty, though, that may be levied. II someone pleads guilty or is convicted of an offence under this section, they may receive an alternative punishment instead of a fine, such as community service work or something if they are unable to pay a fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. To Clause 12. Mr. Antoine.

(Microphone turned off) ...Mr. Chairman. Personally, I totally disagree with charging anybody. I just wanted to ask a question.

I take it this is the first time that this government is doing this in this act. I take it that this is not in the current act but that this is new. I would like to ask the Minister if his department has talked about what it would mean in the communities, because right now it is pretty ambiguous. If someone lays a charge that this person never registered a child and it goes to court, then here again we are leaving it up to the courts to decide.

I would like to ask the Minister what his department has come up with regarding what it now means for parents in the communities with this new provision in the act? Thank you.

Thank you. For the advice of the honourable Member, there were fines for compulsory attendance before. The problem is that I guess it was never, what you might say, pursued to the extent necessary.

I just want to go back, Mr. Chairman, because there are two different views that are being expressed here. One is that on a number of occasions we have been told that students should be forced to attend school, so we are now in the process of making sure that we do register so that we have an indication as to whether or not we should be enforcing the whole matter of compulsory education.

Now, having said that, Mr. Chairman, we are offering a number of other options available to parents which were never part of the program; such as home schooling, that could be a part of the program, or, for that matter, private school. Even though we had, I believe, private schools before, there was never a clear indication that that is the direction we wanted to go. But that option is now available to students.

So we have a bit of a dilemma in that either we register children so we can enforce compulsory education or we do not register them and not have compulsory education, because you can't enforce compulsory education without forcing people to register students. So that is a bit of a dilemma that the honourable Member is raising.

Thank you. To Clause 12. I have Mrs. Thompson.

My question, Mr. Chairman, is, in a small community like Repulse Bay, I have seen students who quit school at 14 or 15 years old; they don't attend school again. I am just taking Repulse Bay as an example of what happens in a smaller community. What happens when a student quits school when he's 14 or 15 years old? Does he get registered and become a non-attender for the rest of the year, getting charged $500 according to section 28 of the act?

I think that is a concern of the parents. A lot of parents in small communities don't have any employment, and I don't think that is a very acceptable situation, to be charged for not registering your children. It just doesn't seem to make sense for a small community. If it was community work, instead of fines, it would probably make more sense; volunteer work as a punishment. So my question is, what happens if a child quits school at 15 years old or 14 years old? Does the parent register them and they then become a non-attender for the rest of the year? What happens in that case? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Well, Mr. Chairman, I can't deal with that section; I'm only dealing with clause 12 which deals with registration. Attendance is dealt with in clause 27. I'll respond to that when we get to clause 27. I guess there is a philosophical difference being reflected in the Assembly right now. Either we register the children and have compulsory education, or we say we're not interested in registering the children. There's a big difference. If we're not interested in registering children, then we're not interested in compulsory education. That's the philosophical difference. My view is that there is a need for us to register children to ensure that children go to school. In this particular section, there is a liability for parents, not the students.

It doesn't necessarily mean that a fine will be levied. There may be other ways where we resolve the matter of a student being registered or maybe, for that matter, being registered later than is normally accepted. There is a requirement for all of us to determine whether we want the children to be registered. That's the first issue. Once that is resolved, then section 27 and attendance comes into effect.

Again, while the $500 is there, that doesn't necessarily mean that the $500 fine is levied. There may be other ways to resolve it. What we need is to indicate penalties for parents because right now the student has the right to an educational program. The parent then has the duty to ensure that the students receive the educational program. If you want to withdraw the fines, that's one thing, but then the question is, what is the penalty for parents? If there's none, then what is the basis on which we force parents to register their students or, for that matter, force parents to ensure their children go to school? That's the issue. Those are two elements, but I think they're important.

There are all kinds of options, but there has to be a punishment, and I think that's what we're trying to get at in those two areas.

Thank you. Mrs. Thompson.

I understand what you're saying. So, it will be up to the CEC if they want to fine $10, right? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister.

No, the district education authorities can't determine the fine, it is up to the Justice of the Peace or the judge, but the CEC can lay the charge. Then it is up to the judge to make that judgment. There cannot be an automatic-fine for someone, it has to be through the process of the judiciary. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Zoe, to clause 12 Of Bill 25.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. The problem is you have to read all the sections together. Section 117.(b), powers of the education body, deals with the matter of ensuring the enforcement of a child under section 12. That's one of the duties of the education body. If you go back to the principal's duties under section 69.(3)(1), it reads: "enforce the provisions of this act and regulations relating to the attendance of students at the school or designate a member of the educational staff to enforce them." In other words, one section deals with the education body having the responsibility and then in another section, the principal can designate a staff member. It could be, in some cases, the school counsellor. This is what we have to make sure happens. You have to connect all of these sections. The sections don't act alone in the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Minister, don't lead the way for other members of the committee to refer to other sections we haven't been through yet. Clause 12. Mr. Minister.

I don't want to lead the way, but they're asking questions, Mr. Chairman, that are affected by other sections. We're dealing with a bill that has lots of connecting factors. Sorry about that, Mr. Chairman. been given to the local education bodies. Because it's so

Thank you. I believe Mrs. Thompson did that, and you were quick to remind her that we are not dealing with that yet. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, I would like clarification on clause 12.(2). There was a response saying that before parents are given penalties, they could use other means; or there will be penalties before a parent is given a fine. I wonder how that would be done. Would there be community service available, or what process would be used if a parent is not fined but they have to pay a certain amount for not sending their children to school? What kinds of penalties would there be? I wonder if there would be community service, or would they always have to pay cash? I just want to get clarification on that area. Thank you.

Thank you. The honourable Minister of Education.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The district education authority or the district education council can decide on the matter of whether or not to charge a person or, for that matter, to talk to them. Maybe there might be a solution other than charging an individual. There may be a way in which we can encourage the parents to send their children to school and register them. So it's not a matter of simply charging them.

The other thing is that a justice of the peace can be used to decide the remedy. The fact is that they can determine that there's a different way of solving this problem, other than fining or having someone pay money. However that is resolved, I leave that up to those who are involved and leave that to the judge to decide. But there are options, including community service, if that's necessary.

Qujannamiik. Clause 12. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you very much. Clause 13. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. A couple of questions, Mr. Minister.

Thank you. Could I get Ms. Joyce to respond, please?

Ms. Joyce.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister may give direction on tuition fees, but largely it's the power of the district education authorities and the divisional education councils to determine a tuition fee.

Thank you. Clause 13. Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, there is a later section that speaks to this, but I'll ask Ms. Whitehouse to speak to this matter.

Thank you. Ms. Whitehouse.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The actual phrase"'tuition fee" is not defined in the act, it is left up to the education body to determine what the tuition fee will be. In a later section in the act in the powers that are given to the education body, different types of fees are set out, and fees other than tuition fees are also established. Tuition fees would generally be for regular program activities, and other things are set out separately. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Clause 13 of Bill 25.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. We shall move on to the next page, page 12. Clause 14. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Clause 15. Mr. Minister, to clause 15.