Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, a point of contention that I have had with the department since becoming a Member of the Legislative Assembly is one that involves what some would call a social pass or a peer pass, something of that nature, where a student does not have to achieve grade level. They are moved along with their age level until departmentals are mandatory, which is grade 10, I believe. I think that has a direct correspondence to what we see as a dropout level of grade 9. You see a lot of students achieve grade 9 but drop out at that point.

I had discussed it previously as a member of the Social Programs Committee in the 13th Assembly. There are different bits of information used in justifying the method. I am glad to say that in the Beaufort Delta region, although it does cost a fair amount of money to administer, they do some tests at the different grades to check their grade level achievement. I think it is very important for parents to know how well their children are doing, instead of all of a sudden finding out they have a young man or lady in the family who is very disgruntled, realizing they just do not cut it when it comes to the grades they are supposed to be at. There is nothing more brutal than being in a peer group and standing out, either on the high end of grades or on the low end of grades. I think that is very difficult and it is something that needs to be addressed.

Along with that, we know there is a lot of information available that says if children, by the time they reach kindergarten to grade 1, have not developed the learning capacity at that point, then difficulties begin to arise throughout their education, right up to graduation. That has been pointed out a number of times. We know the 14th Assembly has put significant dollars and will continue to put more new dollars towards education of our residents. My concern here is how are we going to measure the impact of those new dollars going into the system? Especially since we know if we are going to have an impact and truly do remarkable things with our children, we have to focus on them at a very young age. How can we measure the dollars that are going into the different district education councils and authorities to ensure there is some method to ensure we are aiming at the right areas and not just going for an overall strategy?

Right now, we have special needs areas that go from kindergarten to grade 12. If all of our information states that if we are truly going to impact on the learning capacity of a child it has to be done by grade 1, why are we not focusing all of our energies on the special needs side at the early ages? Maybe by that time we can avert some of the lifelong problems we will see develop, and that we do see today, of having to go through the whole cycle to graduation needing some form of special needs or finding out at grade 9 they just do not cut it.

Those are areas of general concern, Mr. Chairman. I will leave it to the Minister and his staff to see if they can address those. I think if we are going to make a real difference we have to attack the problems at hand at a young age, if we are going to truly impact that. I know some people will argue you cannot just change the system, but what about the group that is in the system now? As well, there has to be some concern there. If we are going to make a true impact and see some measurable goals, we have to focus on the younger generation.

At the same time, we have talked a lot about our education and the process of it. It goes to the area of high grades and high achievements. In fact, Mr. Chairman, we are finding out there are many people who would rather be involved in the trade sector or the construction area, but we find in a lot of our schools, we do not have that ability now. It is one general program. You cannot get the high end. For example, industrial arts, as they used to call it when I went to school. That broadened your horizons.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will turn the floor back over to the Minister for a response. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will start with the issue of the social passing. It has been shown that students who repeat a grade, or are held back, seldom make significant academic progress and rarely catch up with their peers.

This is information that has been looked at by the department. Therefore, the system exists for having the social passing system so students stay with their age group. They are provided academic programs to their level. I understand what the Member is saying, but I think with the information the department is providing, it seems to indicate there is justification for having this particular system in place.

With regard to the level of competency of students, he is correct. There needs to be attention paid to the fact that from time to time, students need to be assessed as to the level of ability they are at. If they are in grade 11, are they at that level? There is no system of testing, to my knowledge, for the various levels, which may be something, depending upon the cost, of course, that could be looked at down the road as a possibility.

The early childhood education is a very important area. The department is working with the Department of Health and Social Services on an Early Childhood Development Action Plan. That plan is looking at identifying key areas that could be addressed. We know programs like the Aboriginal Head Start program provides significant improvements in children before they enter the classroom. I have talked with teachers and found their response to this to be very positive. These types of programs have a very good effect.

With regard to general programs in the school and the need for programs like industrial arts, the potential for much industrial activity like the pipeline, then yes, there needs to be some consideration given to that particular end. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Comments or questions? Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is just amazing how the information continues to roll down the road. I heard the exact comments from previous Ministers when I raised the same concerns. I guess that just confirms that Ministers may come and go, but the staff continue on. That is a point of contention, Mr. Chairman.

There are a lot of arguments out there that can be used. Hopefully the department will look at updating its information. I see it myself, and he has not denied it, but I see a direct correspondence to the student enrollments from kindergarten, where you have high enrollments, and our graduation rate drops next to nothing.

I see a wall at grade 9 when most of the residents of the Northwest Territories achieve a grade 9 level, according to the statistics. We do not know that because there is no testing issued, to prove that you actually achieve grade 9. You are in year nine, as they call it now.

Mr. Chairman, can the Minister confirm that there is a direct correspondence to the fact that there is a high dropout rate at grade 9? Is that due to the fact that once grade 10 comes around, students have to write departmentals and find they cannot cut it and that is when we lose them? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is a drop-off level and throughout high school, there has been a drop-off level. There is no testing of students when they enter grade 9 or grade 10. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. I have Mr. Bell on my list.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my colleague, Mr. Roland, raises some very interesting points. I think one of the most important things we realize is that the department either does not know or cannot know all of the reasons why we seem to have problems between grade 9 and grade 10, but I think the committee, after hearing some of the things the department presented as reasons in Towards Excellence, A Report on Education in the Northwest Territories, came to some of our own conclusions.

I think one of the things that seems very obvious to us is that we see this huge bulge of enrollment at grade 10. In talking to other Members from some of the smaller communities who tell us adult basic education money has been cut back so drastically in the last few years that they do not offer ABE in the communities anymore, or the waiting lists are so long that your only choice for ABE or upgrading is to go back to school during the day with the rest of the regular students. You could be 35 or 50 and put back into high school, back into the school system. I think this is one of the reasons we see this huge bulge at grade 10. It is also because in order to qualify for income support, the department makes one of the productive choices available to you, going back to high school.

If we do not offer adult basic education to adults with their own peer group, they have no choice but to go back to grade 10. We do not see them make it to grade 11, Mr. Chairman, and I do not think it is a big surprise. For the most part, they simply are not capable of passing grade 10. They get stuck and go through grade 10 year after year.

The committee sat through presentations from various NGOs who told us it is not uncommon to see someone stuck in ABE and fail the ABE program five or six times because they simply do not have the basic literacy skills to get up to the ABE level and get some sort of meaningful education from that. I am wondering if the Minister can respond and discuss this grade 10 bulge, and let the House know if a lot of the reason is because ABE students are forced to go back to high school, especially in the small communities.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the enrollments for grade 10, for our indication is that we have a total of 9000 students in the school system, but only 255 are over the age of twenty. I am not sure that the reasons for the bulge in enrollment is due to the lack of ABE. That does not diminish the importance of ABE. It may be that with the grade extensions, it certainly offers the opportunity for people to go back into the school system.

Of course adult basic education is important. Before that, literacy is extremely important, as Mr. Bell has stated. People do need to be literate in order to be able to participate. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Minister referred to grade extensions as being a possible reason for this bulge at the grade 10 level and age. I am wondering if the Minister can tell us how many years grade extensions have been available in most of the communities?

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the grade extensions have varied in the various communities. I believe in Tulita, for example, it is two years. Others have had it longer. Some are still introducing grade extensions.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the point is that grade extensions vary from community to community. Some have been around for six or eight years, and maybe longer. I am wondering, with the recent cuts in various forms of ABE over the last five or six years, we have seen the budget that this government has jointly with the feds or on its own come from $4.5 million for ABE, and that is a ballpark figure, down to $1 million a year. I think we just recently started to see this bulge. I am wondering if the Minister can tell us if this bulge has been around as long as grade extensions have been around, six or eight years. Is this an ongoing trend?

Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman. The bulge has been there for some period of time.

Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if this bulge has been there for a long period of time, and this is not something that is sudden, but is something we have been dealing with for eight or ten years, I am a little surprised the department has not been able to more closely analyze this trend and decide what they can do to move students from grade 10 on to grade 11 and grade 12 and ensure they are a little more successful, especially in the smaller communities.

Can the Minister talk about their apparent lack of success in figuring out the bulge?

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This has been a discussion by the chairs of the DECs to see what areas have caused this particular bulge. Thank you.