Members were disappointed by the lack of measurable targets and goals contained in the department's business plan. Members look forward to the next business plan having recognizable targets and measures that will define how the department will meet its goals. Without targets and measures the standing committee has no way of gauging how the department is performing and whether its policies and practices are conducive to meeting its goals.

The members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs are concerned about recent media reports stating there is a backlog of 123 family law cases in the legal aid system. Members became very concerned when the department revealed that there is no plan to deal with the backlog. Members question the department's lack of action and believe that the problem will not go away just because the department chooses to ignore it.

It is noted that legal aid clients, who are most affected by the backlog, are not in a position to resolve any of their issues without help from the legal system. To leave families in limbo, awaiting lawyer availability is not an acceptable course of action on the part of the department or the Legal Services Board. Committee members note that this is a forced growth issue and without a course of action on the part of the department and the Legal Services Board the problem will get worse.

Recommendation 2

The Standing Committee on Social Programs recommends that the Minister direct the department to co-operate with the Legal Services Board on a course of action that will clear up the backlog of family law cases in the legal aid system in the short-term.

In the long-term, the committee would like to see a plan be developed that ensures this situation will not repeat itself.

Members were very disappointed that there was no correlation between the informatics plan in this year's business plan and what was presented to the previous Standing Committee on Social Programs for the 1999-2000 business plan. The department went from being hailed for the best informatics plan in last year's business plan to being short on useful, detailed information. This particular example emphasizes the need for transition between business plans.

Members did appreciate the subsequent response that outlined the department's success and failures in meeting last year's stated informatics goals. The department appears to be making progress on updating its information systems for the 21st century. The committee looks forward to an improved informatics plan in the next business planning cycle.

Members were somewhat mystified by the department's position report. It initially appeared that there were 101 vacancies for 355 positions, the highest vacancy rate of any department. It was made apparent that the true number of positions was skewed by the requirement to keep a position open while the incumbent is on a transfer or developmental assignment. Committee members would appreciate the department presenting its position report next budget cycle with footnotes explaining its actual employee numbers. Members also noted that the department did not include the percentage of employee appraisals that had been completed in the business plan.

The Members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs have great hopes for the department in the area of alternative justice. It is felt that by allowing the communities to take control of their own problems, solutions can be found that do not impact on the justice system and lead to healing in the community.

The committee was pleased to hear that work is progressing on evaluation and accountability frameworks for community justice committees. Members are particularly concerned that the community justice specialists have the tools to be of assistance to the community justice committees. The money to travel to assist communities in setting up justice committees is crucial during the formative stage.

This leads the standing committee to wonder whether there are enough community justice specialists as more and more community justice committees start up. The members ask that the department monitor this situation to ensure the quality of service that the community justice specialists can provide to the communities remains constant and does not suffer from overloading.

Committee members are concerned about the apparent trend among the departments to include vitally important information in an overhead presentation instead of as part of the business plan itself.

Since the information contained in the overhead presentation never becomes part of the public record, it becomes hard for the committee to hold the department accountable.

The Accountability and Oversight Committee will make a recommendation on this concern. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, that concludes the Standing Committee on Social Programs comments on the Department of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. With that, we will take a short break and come back in 15 minutes to continue with the Department of Justice.

-- Break

I will call the committee back to order. We are reviewing the Department of Justice. Does the Minister wish to bring in any witnesses?

Sergeant-at-Arms, can you escort the witnesses in, please?

Mr. Minister, for the record, could you introduce your witnesses, please?

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. General comments. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the areas I have concerns, especially in regard to Justice, is the whole area of aboriginal policing and the agreement that is in place between the federal government and ourselves. Are we carrying out the criteria for that program? Especially when it comes to aboriginal policing in aboriginal communities, it seems like it is administered by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who are actually delivering the concepts of aboriginal policing like we see in southern Canada on the reserves and what not. We have to re-look at that agreement to see if the intent of the agreement strictly to train special constables through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police program was the intent to deliver aboriginal policing through aboriginal bands or organizations within communities where there are no Royal Canadian Mounted Police located.

The concern I have is that there has been a lot of money put aside for this, but it has not really been spent in the area of aboriginal policing and aboriginal police forces in aboriginal communities. It has been used strictly in the area of Royal Canadian Mounted Police recruiting of special constables in regard to that area. The area of concern I have is that I have had the opportunity to look at the agreement in other jurisdictions in Canada. For example, in Saskatchewan, they put right into the agreements actual percentages that they are trying to meet within outlying areas in Saskatchewan that have majority aboriginal communities.

I would like to ask the Minister, have you looked at the agreement and have you done a review to see if it has met the goals that were set? We do not seem to have any aboriginal policing per se in aboriginal communities. We have a lot of special constables working through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, but no real policing in the context of southern institutions like I imagine on reserves. I would like to ask the Minister, what are they doing in light of that, and where are they going in regard to that agreement?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to getting that information and see that the policy is carried out and a new agreement is in place with the Solicitor General. That is an area that I have had concerns about.

The other area is in regard to the wilderness camps. I have dealt with an individual in Aklavik for some time, and he is getting frustrated. He is not able to maintain his operation because of the lack of clients. The area I have concerns with is we have a lot of people incarcerated in Yellowknife who are sent there for a limited period of time, somewhere from three to six months. That cost alone is pretty high for this government.

Also, the problem we are having putting more money in expanding an institution, in regard to YCI, to the tune of almost $10 million, I have a concern about where we should have more money put into prevention and more money in regard to follow-up programs for these individuals.

Once you are incarcerated and let back into the community, there are no real programs to assist you in dealing with the problems you had when you left the community, and then having to come back to that same environment. Nothing is really changed. You just went to jail and you are back in the community. The problems are still there with alcoholism and unemployment, and developing your self-esteem. There has to be follow-up programs delivered in communities to assist these people, rather than just incarcerating them and saying the problem will just go away. You see a real trend with these repeat offenders. You know it is just an ongoing process.

I think for those individuals who are convicted for the first time, doing a short sentence, say six months or three months, that we allow them to do it through these camps, through programs delivered by these camps, or even at outlets outside of these communities, so they can feel that they are not just going to go sit in jail for a couple of months. They are going to come out with something positive and do it within the community or within the region they come from. So the community knows that at least the offender has made an attempt to change, has tried to deal with his problem, and when he returns to the community, knows that he can work with those organizations or people in the community help him deal with the problem at hand, whether violence, alcoholism, or being unemployed. These things have to be looked at in terms of the social conditions that these people are living in.

I think we have been incarcerating these people for so long that a lot of these problems that we have in our small communities are preventable. We just have to put the resources and the people in place in the communities and the regions to deal with the problems at the community and regional level. We should not go back to the old system of depending on people from the south, or on people at the regional centres through hostels or jails or what not, to deal with our problems. These are our problems. We should have the resources and the abilities to deal with them in our communities. I would like to ask the Minister, have you considered a program such as this in each of the regions or even in the different cultural groups so they can take hold of the ownership of dealing with the social and economic situations that we find ourselves in, where people are being incarcerated strictly because of their lifestyle?

Unless anything changes in your lifestyle, you will always be stuck in that cycle of poverty, unemployment and alcoholism. Unless you change the individual or change the climate that these individuals are in, nothing is going to change. I would like to ask the Minister, have you considered revamping justice instead of building bigger institutions, starting to deal with the human aspects of justice in our communities and regions?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of my key concerns with the department surrounds our inmate programming at our correction facilities. I think there is too much of a focus on behaviour modification and anger management and these types of things which, although I agree are important, I think we have to look deeper at the root of some of these problems.

I think it stems from one's inability to function in society. I think when we see the average level of education of inmates at our facilities is between the grade levels of 4 to 6, we can understand why people, upon release, would not be able to contribute and would not be able to get gainful employment. I think that it is one thing to analyze the frustration and try to deal with behaviour modification, but if we do not give these people a reasonable chance at attaining a better life when they are released, I do not think we are going to have much success.

I think it is sort of a band-aid on the problem. I think we have to look at the cause and effect here, and really look at the root of the problem. I think we need to focus more of our attention on literacy and on adult basic education, so that inmates are functional upon their release and do not end up right back in because I can imagine, upon getting out, if you are unable to be employed, if you are unable to make the productive choices the government is asking you to make, it is frustrating. It is one thing to treat the anger and these kinds of things. To help inmates deal with the kinds of anger that they might experience, I think we have to go deeper.

I would like to urge the department to focus on programming. I know that certainly they need more room to be able to do the kinds of things they would like to do, and I think they are doing a good job in the area of culture-specific work at some of the correctional facilities. Certainly they have to refocus and I do not think the same kind of things that might be relevant in the south hold true in the North.

I do not think we need to worry about whether or not we are educating people who might become more effective criminals. I do not think that is something we need to worry about. It might be in the south, but I think that when you see alcoholism as the main reason for most of the people in our correction facilities, we realize that drinking is a result of not being able to function in society, not being able to get a job, not being able to raise a family properly. So I think we need to look at some of these things and refocus, retool and rededicate some resources to education in our facilities. I am wondering if the Minister could comment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Antoine.