This is page numbers 659 - 727 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I too have a real concern, especially with the process that was used in this, especially after going through the March budget cycle where we approved a budget knowing that there were expenditures, that there was a session in July.

Especially now, where we see a lot of new initiatives popping up all over the place, which this is one of them. I think that with the concern raised by my other colleagues on this side of the House, it is awfully frustrating when we sit on this side of the House and we ask for resources to assist with our social problems in our communities, such as health problems in regard to the delivery of health care services. Then, all of a sudden, we keep getting the comment "We do not have the resources" or "We have to try to put it into the business planning cycle" or "We have to get it in to the main estimates." However, these types of major projects -- $1 million expenditures -- are coming through the House as special warrants.

The concern I have is that we should, realizing now that we are in a financial crunch, we are talking about initiatives and trying to get dollars for training. We are talking about resource development. I think as a government, especially from this department realizing that the financial arguments that you present to us on this side of the House are pretty hard to swallow when you see this type of initiative coming forth in this manner.

So I would like to ask the Minister, why was there not time to either put this into the main estimates and allow it to go through the budget cycle? Why is it that we could not spread this out over a longer period of time? Why was there not time to put this into the budget cycle in regard to business plans and approval of the budget from this House?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, first of all, it did not go into the budget because in order to do that, we would have had to do this in early December 2000. That was before we even had the electrical generation review, before we had a chance to analyze the study, before a lot of things began to happen nationally.

We really became aware of how things were unfolding right across the United States and in Canada with the committees that I mentioned before, national committees and national strategies, probably more into March, April, May, June, in that period is where we were able to build it in.

I appreciate the Member's frustration if we seem to be bringing up these new initiatives. I believe everything, as much as possible, should be dealt into business plans. This one is going to be built into the business plans for consideration for the coming year. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister tell me how much of the $1 million special warrant has been expended to date?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

I believe it is approximately $700,000.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

November 5th, 2001

Page 686

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister give us a breakdown of that $750,000, in what area? We have a sort of budget cycle here, where we have a $100,000 for travel, consultation. You have publication and materials, $800,000 for research. Do you have an idea of the breakdown of that $750,000 and what is left?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 686

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we did go through this breakdown yesterday but if the Members want, we can do it again. I will ask Mr. Voytilla if he would like to give you that breakdown.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Voytilla.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

Voytilla

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The work completed to date includes two economic feasibility studies to determine whether or not we could bring power to market at current rates. That was about $60,000 to date, although some of the billings on that project are not in yet.

There was work done with the South Slave leadership to try to work out a consensus on how to approach the Taltson development. We have retained Mr. Francois Paulet to assist us in that work with the South Slave leadership. That was about $23,000. We retained an individual who had a specialization in transmission line issues, Mr. Norm Olsen. That was about $7,000. A lot of that work tied into the economic feasibility analysis we were doing, as well as the preparation work for the Western Governors' meeting and the Energy Ministers' meeting on the east/west transmission grid.

Mr. Peter Lougheed was retained to give us advice strategically on interprovincial issues, both trade and transmission, as well as industry market potential in western Canada. That was about $17,000. McLennan Ross, Barristers and Solicitors, were retained to do work with respect to the legislative regulatory and taxation aspects of NWT hydro development. Again, feeding into some of our feasibility work but getting road maps on the jurisdictional issues involved with hydro development, regulatory issues and processes and how to potentially structure the approach to hydro development from a taxation standpoint, including the potential for introducing a levy on hydro generation, which would be the main source of government revenues flowing from hydro development.

In addition, they did some work on how we would move the Taltson project forward, the steps that would be involved and the work plan that would need to be followed to advance that project, should we get agreement with the South Slave leadership to in fact move forward aggressively on Taltson developments. That was about $140,000.

We retained a communications firm to help us with the public consultation, media information and overall communications advice on how to effectively communicate the issues with respect to hydro development to the public. That was about $74,000.

We retained -- we did not retain but we participated in an inter-provincial study of transmission grid issues across Canada. That was contributed to by all provinces and territories participating. Our cost on that was $5,900.

We then have the continuing work of the electrical review team, who worked not only with the hydro project but on dealing with some of the related issues with respect to electrical generation regulation and distribution in the Territories, and following through on their recommendations from last year, as well as following through and doing a lot more research to assist us with assessing hydro potential.

The three consultants that have done that work for us: Mr. Jim Robertson, and we have paid out about $90,000 to Mr. Robertson; Dave Morris and Associates, about $100,000; and Mr. Fred Abbott, about $40,000.

In addition, we have worked closely with the Power Corporation to draw on whatever information and expertise they had in the field. Mr. Gord Stewart has been a key member of our steering committee. Their local hydro officer, Mr. Grabke, has provided invaluable assistance to us as well. That has been their contribution to the project.

That summarizes the work that has been done and paid for. Many of those are northern contractors. Some are southerners, as has already been discussed. This was largely to build the body of knowledge and information about the aspects of hydro so that we knew whether or not we had something that was viable to market. We started to know what would be involved in marketing it and we were dealing with many of the issues that we felt were relevant to address through our community consultation and our work with aboriginal governments, and seeing if there was an interest in jointly pursuing this activity.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Voytilla. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I did have a chance to question quite extensively on this special warrant for the hydro initiative yesterday and I do not want the Minister to have to reiterate everything he said and go through this again. I do have one question from his answers here today, in that he indicated some of the urgent nature was due to the summer assemblies and in fact, work had been going on even prior to those summer assemblies and that he could have charged some of this work to ministerial travel but this seemed like the appropriate place to charge it.

It occurs to me that the special warrant was approved by FMBS on September 26th, so all of this money that was being spent up to that point had not been approved by anybody. I do not know the Financial Administration Act inside and out, but it would seem to me that there has to be some stipulation under the FAA if the Minister and the department are going to spend money, that this be approved by FMBS. In fact, this was not and we know it was not until the 26th of September, not much more than a month ago. A lot of this money was being spent without any authorization. Is that the case?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, no, there was certainly a lot of discussion in Cabinet and FMB on this issue before work was undertaken and as work was undertaken. Maybe I will ask Mr. Voytilla just to explain the special warrant process for the Members.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Voytilla.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 687

Voytilla

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the Minister pointed out, the work plan for the summer project had been discussed at FMB and had been approved in principle. We then undertook to initiate the work and to cost out the work plan in adequate detail for the Financial Management Board. The September 26th date is the date that the special warrant was signed by the Commissioner. That is the date that appears on the document. The date it went to FMB may have been somewhat before that but it was in September that the Financial Management Board gave the final approval to the dollars associated with the work plan, although the work plan had been approximately quantified for them at the outset of the summer.

With respect to the Financial Administration Act, the authority exists to expend money within the appropriation subject to the purpose of that appropriation. The key consideration for us was to get authority for an additional appropriation prior to us hitting a level of spending that we could not have accommodated should that special warrant not have been approved. We feel that we adhered to that provision of the act.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 688

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Voytilla. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 688

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you. I will not be able to recall everything that Mr. Voytilla has said here, but I think he indicated there had been a lot of discussion prior to this point but no approval of the detail, just sort of a blanket, general approval, go out and spend some money and when you figure out the details and add it up after the fact, we will approve it. If this money was being spent before there was any approval of the detail, it is really sort of permission after the fact, or forgiveness after the fact. It does not seem to me, and I do not know how it typically works, that you can just have a lot of discussions, approve things in principle, go out and spend the money and then come back, tally up the costs and say, "There are the details. We approved the details of the spending" and the official approval of FMB then goes ahead. It seems to me that you should have approval of the detail before you spend the money, even if you think you might be able to keep it within the appropriation. What if this had ended up being $7 million worth of spending? Maybe that is not realistic but I do not know how you could just sort of make a best-guess stab at something, hope it comes in under the amount allocated for the appropriation and spend away, Mr. Chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 688

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Voytilla.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 688

Voytilla

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We did provide a quantified work plan with estimates of what the cost would be in carrying it out. However, those were estimates because until you engage in discussions with the specialists and scope out the project and the work required, it is difficult to be specific with the cost of each aspect of the project. We were working within a tentative budget on the project.

With respect to the specific question on the timing of the special warrant, we had to make sure that our spending for that date was something that we could accommodate should the special warrant not be approved. The timing of the special warrant is very critical to that because the special warrant in this case was signed by the Commissioner on September 26th. The timing of that was important because that was approaching the period of time when we could not have dealt with the expenditures to date without the authority of the special warrant.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 688

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Voytilla. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 688

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Handley indicated that much of the work had taken place prior to the summer assemblies and in fact, quite a bit prior to that. It had been ongoing for some time. I wonder then when the quantified work plan was provided to the FMB with this tentative budget. Was it six, eight, ten months ago, a year ago in order to have come before the work was undertaken? Thank you.