Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to oil and gas, and particularly with gas, we could see that one coming several years ago and it built up gradually. In fact, in my previous life in RWED, I realized what was happening and that was when the Mackenzie Valley development project was undertaken. That goes back to 1998. That one built up more gradually.

In the case of the hydro potential, it came to us very quickly, partly because of the electrical generation study but also because of things that are happening in North America. There was the U.S. Energy Strategy that was coming forward. There was the creation of the Energy Reference Committee by the federal government. There were also discussions by western provinces about a western power grid. All of these things led us to believe that it was important for us to have a good assessment of what our potential was in order that we were able to link in with these other initiatives. It was critical to move ahead with this one, otherwise we might find ourselves knocking at the door after all of the broader strategies have been put in place.

Mr. Chairman, again I come back to the issue that it was urgent to do this and it was urgent to consult with aboriginal people. The window was there and we had to take advantage of it. Thank you.

Ms. Lee.

Mr. Chairman, I think the question of urgency in this matter that warrants a million dollar quick spending is a matter of opinion. Mr. Chairman, we reviewed yesterday in this House, in this committee, supplementary spending for the establishment of an Energy Secretariat, where $100,000 was allocated for consultation, another $80,000 for consensus building, $50,000 for research and analysis, and demonstration projects of $45,000. Now we are looking at another $100,000 for travel and consultation, another $100,000 for publications and materials, and $800,000 for research. I am advised here that the Minister is planning on spending more in this area.

I guess my first question would have to be, does the Minister see any redundancy in the government creating an Energy Secretariat that has a separate task, and then the Minister and the chairman of FMBS flying in charters all over the North, doing a thing that sounds like it should really be done by an Energy Secretariat? Does the Minister see any problems with that?

Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, no, I do not see any problems with it. While there may be some efficiencies to be gained by doing this through a more coordinated structure, there is no redundancy between the two exercises. This one is looking at hydro potential and assessing the extent to which aboriginal leadership would support the development of that potential. The Energy Secretariat is quite a different task. It is not looking at hydro potential in the sense of it being an opportunity to generate revenue, which is the primary purpose of this one.

The Energy Secretariat is looking more at efficiencies and a more effective way of our government through policy being able to respond to a lot of the energy use issues. A lot of what is driving the Energy Secretariat is more the increasing cost of heating fuel, for example. There was a need for us to look at what is our policy with regard to energy. That is a different task than this one. There is not the level of redundancy that the Member implies. Thank you.

Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not claim to be an expert in energy areas, but I do not know if the people out there can tell the difference between what the Energy Secretariat is supposed to do and what the Minister has indicated as to the nuances of differences in these duties.

Mr. Chairman, I want to register very strongly that this is a real problem for me, that we could fork out a million here and a million there. There are millions of dollars being spent on consultation, travel and publications and materials. I guess that is okay if we had plenty of money to spend but we just talked about not having enough money. This would have built one kilometre of road between Rae and Yellowknife.

Mr. Chairman, I want to put the Minister on notice that there will be very little tolerance for this kind of waste of money. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I think we need to look at these in the bigger picture and with a bit more vision than looking at each one as a specific initiative. The whole hydro potential initiative is a way of being able to identify potential revenue and that potential revenue, if people agree with the development of the potential, is one way of being able to resolve the problem that Ms. Lee refers to. That is a very limited amount of revenue. I do not see this as competing for road development. I see this as a way of generating new revenues in the future so we are not caught in this kind of bind. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Following up on this activity and the special warrant for $1 million for the hydro initiative, I would like to know from the Minister the end result. Will there be a decision made here with this expenditure that again, as a special warrant, has already been expended? Are we going to see something flow out of this before the end of this fiscal year?

Mr. Chairman, I do not think, at least I had not contemplated doing a report at the end of the fiscal year, saying here is where everybody is at with this. I see it more as an evolving process, a process that goes through continuous stages of evolution.

I think what we will find is that some regions are going to move ahead very quickly and want to move on and take advantage of their hydro potential. Other regions are going to want to have more time to think about it and to ask more questions.

Mr. Chairman, I had not planned on putting together a report at the end of the year. If Members wanted that, I would be happy to give a status report on where we are at with each of the regions, but that was not part of our planning. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister's response concerns me quite a bit, the simple fact that a special warrant is something that is required urgently. In the Minister's response, he talked about this being an evolving process. Hopefully, he has not based it on Darwin's theory where we are still looking for the missing link.

If we have already expended money based on urgency and there is not even going to be a report at the end of this fiscal year, I need some -- why is this a legitimate expenditure, especially based on urgency? Did this result in a final position or a position being put forward, besides that one of a general nature to say yes, there is some potential here? We can put a cent per kilowatt hours tariff and make millions as a government. That is general and can be formed without having to expend a million dollars, especially in an urgent matter such as this.

So hopefully some justification from the Minister as to why is this a special warrant, especially in light of the fact, Mr. Chairman, that this House has questioned the need for special warrants previously through supplementary appropriations. We seem to be coming up with a trend here.

So some justification as to why this expenditure was required under a special warrant and is in such an urgent nature when we will not even see anything in the Assembly to account for this type of expenditure. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I just finished saying that if Members want, I would be happy to do a status report. I do not want to repeat myself too much but this was certainly viewed as urgent last spring. Again, I have to say that we had the electrical generation report. There was an American election. There was going to be an energy strategy for the U.S. to develop. The Energy Reference Committee was established by the federal government. The western provinces were talking about a western power grid. All of these things created a window of opportunity for us so it was necessary to take advantage of that and we did that. We do have a lot of information now that will substantiate our hydro potential.

We have also had extensive consultations at the assembly level with aboriginal leadership. We want to continue carrying on with that one. I think there has been a lot of progress made in taking advantage of the opportunity that existed. I think Canada, including the federal government, realized the potential we have in this area now and we are a player at the table.

In terms of the urgency with aboriginal consultation, there are assemblies held generally once a year. They are held mostly in the summer, anywhere from late June/early July through to the end of August. We wanted to be prepared to be able to take this initiative to the aboriginal assemblies and get their views on it. We have been clear all along that we will not proceed unless they are in full agreement with it happening in their traditional area. We have heard from people. Some want more information.

There was no other way, given the urgency of responding to things that are happening nationally and continentally. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister state if in fact through those consultations with the aboriginal groups through the summer he received a positive response or a firm indication that they are ready to proceed with this initiative up and down the valley? Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, some people are certainly ready to carry on. I think the Dogrib people, for example, have created their -- I cannot remember what it is called, a hydro trust, or what the term is -- but they certainly want to move ahead and take advantage of the opportunities in their area.

The leadership in the South Slave area has indicated much interest in the Taltson River system and the potential that is there. There have been positive sounds with regard to the Bear River. There have been mixed feelings on the Mackenzie River.

The feedback we are getting is generally what we expected. Some people want to move ahead quickly, some people are taking a more cautious approach. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For a million dollars, that is a pretty soft answer. Mr. Chairman, again, I go back to the fact that this is a special warrant. Again, some urgency was required, but we talk about an evolving process that sounds like it belongs in the business plan process, which could be developed in an orchestrated way.

The two systems the Minister spoke about are existing. There are existing hydro facilities there. I would suggest that in fact, there is opportunity to work together with those existing groups because you have existing dams in place. The Taltson already has the capacity over double what it is now producing. To me, that is not a whole new initiative that would require a plan that is just being put together. I would think it would be something where you can work with the regional groups there and come up with a procedure and a way of moving forward.

I think it is important as a government to investigate these things. I am just questioning the fact that this is a special warrant for a million dollars and the Minister states "If this House wants a report, we could put something together." That is not acceptable, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.