This is page numbers 507 - 546 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

The Chair will call a short break and we will come back and consider Bill 9. Thank you.

-- Break

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

I will call the committee of the whole back to order. We are doing Bill 9. Before we begin, the Law Clerk is going to render a ruling on the information that was asked for yesterday in the House. Ms. Peterson.

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Law Clerk Ms. Peterson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The opinion is a bit lengthy, so I will ask Members to bear with me in it.

RE: Interpretation of Section 16 of the Public Service Act and Section 23 of the Interpretation Act

Members in committee of the whole March 8, 2002 requested a legal opinion regarding the interpretation of two statutory provisions.

Background

The facts surrounding the issue relate to Supplementary Appropriation, No. 3 and in particular the appropriation requested under the Department of the Executive. These issues relate to a special warrant undertaken, among other things, to effect termination payouts of officials of that department, namely the chief of staff, principal secretary and two secretaries as well as other transition and legal costs. The discussion of the committee of the whole on March 8, 2002 concerned both the initial negotiation of the employment contracts for the chief of staff and principal secretary and the negotiation of terminations of those positions. Finance Minister Handley, who was appearing before committee of the whole respecting the supplementary appropriation bill, is also the Minister responsible for the public service.

With respect to the initial negotiation of these contracts, the Minister was asked who had the authority on the part of the Executive to agree to or negotiate the initial employment contracts. I refer to unedited Hansard at page 1131:

MR. BELL: Thank you. Can the Minister please tell me who had the authority on the part of the Executive to agree to these terms, or in fact negotiate them in the first place?

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Delorey): Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

HON. JOE HANDLEY: Mr. Chairman, the employment contract for the chief of staff was entered into pursuant to the general employment provision of the Public Service Act. In the case of the principal secretary, it would be the same arrangement. Thank you.

When questioned as to whether Cabinet approved these contracts in detail and whether that detail was negotiated by the Premier, the honourable Mr. Handley responded at page 1131 of the unedited Hansard:

HON. JOE HANDLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the general contract, the boilerplate contract, would have been approved by Cabinet. The negotiations of the contract would be done by the secretary to Cabinet and approved by the Premier in this case.

When asked by Mr. Dent whether these contracts in fact fell under the provisions of the Public Service Act, the honourable Minister responded at page 1135 of the unedited Hansard:

HON. JOE HANDLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, yes. I would still take that position. She was in the public service. She had an at pleasure contract. She was not a restricted employee. I would still hold the same position.

As to the negotiation of the details of termination of these positions, the honourable Minister stated at page 1138 of the unedited Hansard:

HON. JOE HANDLEY: Mr. Chairman, normally what happens is that the secretary to Cabinet would be the person responsible, and in doing that that individual would consult with FMBS because of their labour relations responsibilities and potentially the Department of Justice if there are legal issues to be considered. There is no reason to believe that these were not done in the standard way that this would be handled in any case. Thank you.

The discussion further established that Mr. Handley, as Minister responsible for the public service, has withdrawn himself from matters concerning the termination of these positions. At page 1141 of the unedited Hansard:

MR. BELL: Thank you. I would like to ask this Minister something he is very familiar about and that is as Minister responsible for the public service I believe that he withdrew himself from these matters because he felt he was in a conflict having been a member of the conflict committee. I would like to ask the Minister when specifically he withdrew himself as Minister responsible for the public service?

HON. JOE HANDLEY: Mr. Chairman, I withdrew myself from any Cabinet discussion on anything to do with the conflict process and related matters very early. I do not remember the exact month, but it was certainly at the time probably before the conflict committee was set up. It may have been earlier because of my involvement on the Board of Management, but I withdrew myself from all matters on this very early in the process. Thank you.

The issue then arose due to the wording of the Public Service Act and Interpretation Act whether the authority of the Minister responsible for the public service could be assumed by another Member of the Executive. It had been confirmed by the honourable Minister that no formal process had been adopted for this delegation of authority.

Statutes in Question

The two statutes in question are:

Public Service Act, R.S.N.W.T. 1988, c. P-16, as amended, section 16, 17 and 18 which state as follows:

16. Subject to subsections 16.1(1) and 17(2) and (3), the Minister has the exclusive right and authority to appoint persons to positions in the public service. R.S.N.W.T. 1988, c. 124(Supp.), s.9.

16.1(1) The Commissioner in Executive Council, on the recommendation of the Premier, has the exclusive right and authority to appoint persons to the position of deputy minister in the public service.

(2) Sections 17, 18 and 20 do not apply to a person appointed under subsection (1).

(3) In sections 21, 29 and 29.1, "employee" does not include a deputy minister. R.S.N.W.T. 1988, c.124(Supp.). s.9; S.N.W.T. 1994, c.30,s.3.

17(1) The Minister may make appointments by competition to positions in the public service.

(2) Pursuant to the regulations, the staffing appeals committee may hear an appeal of an appointment by competition under subsection (1).

(3) Where the staffing appeals committee grants an appeal the appointment made under subsection (1) shall be revoked by the Minister. R.S.N.W.T. 1988.

18. Where, in the opinion of the Minister, it is necessary, the Minister may, in the recommendation of the Executive Council, make appointments without competition to positions within the public service.

19. (1) The Minister may, in relation to a position, establish the qualifications that, in the opinion of the Minister, are necessary or desirable having regard to the nature of the duties to be performed.

(3) The termination of appointment of a person to an office on a specified day takes effect:

  1. (a) on the expiration of that day, where the day is specified in the appointment; or
  2. (b) on the commencement of that day, where the day is specified in a revocation of the appointment.

(4) Where a revocation of the appointment of a person to an office specifies a day on which the revocation takes effect, the specified day must not be more than 60 days before the day on which the revocation is made. S.N.W.T. 1997,c.8,s.16(2).

The Interpretation Act, R.S.N.W.T. 1988, c.I-18, as amended.

23(1) A power or duty given by an enactment to a particular Minister may be exercised or performed by any member of the Executive Council acting as or for the Minister.

(2) Where a power is conferred or a duty imposed on a Minister, the power may be exercised or the duty performed by the Commissioner.

Also of significance are sections 20 and 21 of the Interpretation Act which state as follows:

20(1) Every public officer appointed before or after the commencement of this Act by or under the authority of an enactment or otherwise, holds office during pleasure only, unless it is otherwise expressed in the enactment or in his or her commission or appointment.

(2) Subject to subsection (2.1), the appointment of a person to an office

  1. (a) may be expressed to be effective on or after the day on which the person commenced the performance of the duties of the office; and
  2. (b) takes effect on the commencement of the day specified in the appointment.

(2.1) Where an appointment of a person to an office specifies a day on which the appointment takes effect, the specified day must not be more than 60 days before the day on which the appointment is made.

21. Words in an enactment authorizing the appointment of a public officer include the power of:

  1. (a) fixing the term of office of the public officer;
  2. (b) terminating the appointment of the public officer or removing or suspending the public officer;
  3. (c) reappointing or reinstating the public officer;
  4. (d) fixing the remuneration of the public officer and varying or terminating it;
  5. (e) appointing another in the stead or to act in the stead of the public officer whether or not the office is vacant; and
  6. (f) appointing a person as the deputy of the public officer to perform and exercise some or all of the duties and powers of the public officer in the manner and under the circumstances specified in the instrument appointing him or her.

Opinion

From the provisions of both statutes, it is clear that the Minister responsible for the public service has the authority to:

  • • Appoint persons to the public service, and assuming that the chief of staff position and principal secretary position are positions in the public service, to make those appointments;
  • • If the Minister for the public service is of the view that the appointments should be made without competition and the Executive Council so recommends, he may make direct appointments to these positions;
  • • If a general interpretation of the Public Service Act is adopted such that it is understood to be an enactment authorizing the appointment of these positions although the positions themselves are not specified in this or any other enactment, the Minister responsible for the public service may establish the responsibilities of those positions, the term of the positions, the remuneration, the termination or removal of the persons in those positions.

The question then is whether the authority to effect termination of these individuals, by virtue of section 23 of the Interpretation Act, can be assumed by another member of the Executive Council acting as or for the Minister.

In my opinion the words "... the Minister has the exclusive right and authority to appoint persons to positions in the public service." refer to the office or position of the Minister responsible for the public service and not the particular individual occupying that office. This is to distinguish it from authority that may be exercised under this legislation by other than a Minister, such as a deputy head (section 29 in suspension and demotion) or authorities that relate to a collective bargaining unit.

Thus, the authority to make appointments must be exercised by the position of Minister, but is not restricted to the particular Minister with the original portfolio. The authority may be exercised by another member of Executive Council pursuant to section 23 of the Interpretation Act.

Were this to be read to mean that the authority may only be exercised by the person who actually holds that portfolio, in every instance where that person was away or unable to act, a ministerial appointment would have to be made to fulfill the responsibilities under the act.

This interpretation on the interaction of these two provisions is reinforced by the wording of section 23 of the Interpretation Act, which states "A power or duty given by an enactment to a particular Minister." This is consistent with the view the authority given particularly to the Minister responsible for the public service may be exercised by another member of the Executive Council.

It also appears from the wording of both the Interpretation Act and the provisions of the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act that no particular process is required regarding the delegation of ministerial authority. In an earlier version of the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act the then section 62 stated:

S.62(1) A Minister who is or expects to be temporarily absent, incapacitated or unable to act may request the Government Leader to designate another Minister to act in the Minister's stead.

(2) Where a Minister has requested the Government Leader to designate another Minister to act in the Minister's stead or where a Minister is unable to make such a request but is temporarily absent, incapacitated or unable to act, the Government Leader may designate another Minister to act during the temporary absence, incapacity or inability of that Minister.

These sections are no longer present in the current and governing version of this legislation and there are no sections which speak specifically to the assumption of ministerial responsibility by another member of the Executive Council in this Act. There is therefore no process specified in present legislation that outlines the procedure required for transfer, delegation or assumption of ministerial authority by another member of the Executive Council.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Peterson. Mr. Minister, would you like to bring in witnesses? Minister Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Does the committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Sergeant-at-Arms, escort the witnesses in, please. Mr. Minister, please introduce your witnesses for the record.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me are Liz Snider, secretary to Cabinet, and Lew Voytilla, secretary to the Financial Management Board. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. We are on page 6, Executive, operations expenditures, special warrants, Cabinet Secretariat, $776,000. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question to the Minister is, how do you calculate remuneration based on years? Is there a formula? If you are looking through the Public Service Act I believe the maximum you can get is 24 months and you receive one month for every year served. I am wondering, on the basis of that, an individual who may have served 16 or 17 years should receive a remuneration of 16 or 17 months. Is that a steadfast way of measuring the compensation of public service employees in the government?

What I do not like about the whole idea is, there is a reason for the 24 months because there is that maximum. I think we have people in our public service who have served over 20 years, going onto 25, in some cases 30 years of service. The most they are going to receive is 24 months. I find it kind of unfair that someone can waltz in and sure, I believe people should be compensated for time served, but I do not think you should be receiving extra remuneration based on goodwill. The whole idea of serving time is that you have earned it. If you have earned it you should be compensated.

To get an extension over and above other people in the public service who have worked for many years and at the end of it all know that the most they will get when they leave is 24 months, but they have had to serve 24 years.

I would like to ask the Minister, what is the means of measuring? Is there a policy that states it is actually based on one month per year? Is that the process by which you measure the remuneration based on the Public Service Act?

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I think we dealt with this on Friday. This is not included in the Public Service Act. There is no formal policy. In the case of all at pleasure contracts, including deputy ministers contracts, there is a provision that a severance payment of one month per year of service, with a minimum of 12 months to a maximum of 24 months is provided in the contract. It is only with the at pleasure contracts. It is not a provision in the Public Service Act or anywhere else.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With compensation, should it not be based on time served? If you serve a year, you are compensated for a year. If you serve two years, you get compensated for two. If you serve six years, you get compensated for six. You don't just unilaterally work one year, you get 12 years built in.

The whole principle of accumulating time is that you serve time. In this case, I would like to know, you said one year served is one month, but after that you can go up to 12 months, then after that it is up to 24 months. What is the measuring stick that you use to ensure that as a government we have some rules in place that people are not automatically given a golden handshake after they serve a year and a half and then find out they have 24 months of payout? There has to be a measuring stick there, or something laid down in black and white that says it only applies under these circumstances and those circumstances are listed as items.

Is there anything that is written down that we can either table here or white out the names of those individuals and see exactly what it states in the policy or what it states in the contractual arrangements you have right now? Is there such a means test to ensure these things are accountable and we are ensuring that the public purse is being taken care of and we are not finding a mechanism where if people want to get a payout they can find some excuse to get fired and will make more money than they would have in one year of salary by being run off from this government?

The whole notion of that alone comes down to accountability. I would like to ask the Minister, do you have that policy and can we get a copy of it to see how it is spelt out in black and white?

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said, there is an industry norm that we work with. If we are going to hire senior management people who have to, in order to take a job with us, put their previous career on hold and make a commitment to us, then we have to pay a minimum if we were to terminate them for no cause.

In our situation, the norm is a minimum of 12 months for the at pleasure contracts. Even if the person only works for us for a year and a half, and for no cause, is terminated, they are eligible for 12 months. We would not be able to attract people into the senior positions, qualified, experienced people into these positions if we did not have that kind of a minimum. They would not come to us or to any other employer at that level.

In terms of where is this written? In the case of people who are covered by a collective agreement then there is a provision in the collective agreement that clearly outlines the termination provisions. In the case of excluded employees who are not part of the union and are excluded then it would be in the Excluded Employees Handbook. With managers there is also a handbook that spells that out.

In this case, we are dealing with at pleasure contracts. It is an industry norm that we use and I believe it is fairly standard across the country that you would have to provide a minimum of 12 months for anybody to take that kind of job. In our situation, there is a maximum of 24 months that someone would be paid out in the case of no cause. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister tell us if there have been any special circumstances where people have been paid out over and above the 24 months?

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, speaking generally in terms of senior management at pleasure appointments, then if it is a no cause termination we look at these conditions here. There are always a lot of factors that have to be taken into consideration, the primary one would be the possibility of a legal liability if you were to let an individual go.

Mr. Chairman, in general, yes, that could be looked at. As a government, we would have to weigh all of these factors.

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the case of an individual resigning, on their own merit they decide to resign from the government and they find work elsewhere, is that treated any differently than these contracts that you mentioned? You keep talking about contracts in the context of compensation, but if a person resigns on their own terms and says publicly, I am going to resign on my own personal feelings that it is time to move on, in that scenario are those people treated differently in the contract they may have where there is an opting out clause where you can actually opt out of the contract, notify the government that sorry this is not the game for me, I want to do something else, I am not happy here or whatever? Is there anything in place either through the collective agreement or through a contract that ensures that people will be able to opt out on their own terms and they can just get up and say, "I am resigning from a position in the government," make a public statement and then walk away?

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Handley.