Does the Minister wish to bring in any witnesses? Mr. Antoine.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
In the Legislative Assembly on October 10th, 2003. See this topic in context.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Paul Delorey
Sergeant-at-Arms, escort the witnesses in, please.
Mr. Minister, could you introduce your witnesses for the record, please.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I have to my right Rick Bargery, deputy minister of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs, and to his right is Mark Aitken with the Department of Justice, and to my left is Martin Goldney, legal counsel with the Department of Justice. Thank you.
Clause By Clause
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The Chair Paul Delorey
Thank you, Mr. Antoine. We left off yesterday on page 3 of Bill 34, clause 4. I will call clause 4 again, Mr. Dent.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since clause 4 deals with the Tlicho agreement in its entirety, I just have some questions about that agreement that I would like to ask the Minister. As I understand it, I'm pretty sure that this has already been confirmed in the House but I'd just like to have it on the record again, there's no way that this agreement can be changed by the Legislative Assembly, is there?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
No, this agreement cannot be changed by the Legislative Assembly.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I referred to this in my opening comments so I think I know the answer, but I would like to have it confirmed by the Minister. Is it also right that this is a new approach? Many similar agreements are entirely bilateral between aboriginal governments and the federal government, and the Tlicho probably could have insisted on a strictly bilateral agreement with the federal government. So a deal could have been made between the Tlicho and the federal government, without the Government of the Northwest Territories at the table. Is that correct?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman. Technically that bilateral arrangement could have been an approach that was taken to make this happen. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think also we've seen that our tenure at these tables is not very strong. If I'm not mistaken, when the Government of the Northwest Territories wasn't prepared to sign agreements with the Saskatchewan Denesuline and the Manitoba Denesuline, those two parties went to the feds and got agreements signed on a bilateral basis, and we weren't involved in the signing even though we had been at the table. Is that not correct?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, the court case and the arrangement of the federal government are interim measures agreements, IMAs, and that's what is being currently worked on. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really wanted to just get it on the record that the Assembly can't change the agreement and that this does represent a new approach, and that the Tlicho have agreed to have the Government of the Northwest Territories at the table, and I think we welcome that approach. I would have welcomed an opportunity, as I said earlier, to be able to, during public hearings, make sure that my constituents were aware of these provisions.
Another question about one of the clauses in the agreement, clause 2.10.1(b) in the agreement itself outlines the process for an amending agreement, and that it involves that all three parties have to agree. As I understand it, this is similar to First Nations Yukon Self-Government Act, but that provides that any amendment that the government agrees to must be tabled within the Legislative Assembly within 15 days, along with a Cabinet order giving approval to the amendment. There's no such provision in the act we're looking at today that we would see that happen, is there?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
No, the Member is right, it cannot happen. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister advise whether the Department of Justice has provided a legal analysis of the constitutional validity of providing that future amendments to the agreement become law without consideration by this Legislative Assembly?
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can advise that the Department of Justice has reviewed the agreement quite thoroughly and is confident in its constitutionality and such matters were considered. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In that case, I guess what I'm looking for then is a political commitment and a public commitment from the Minister that in the future that if there are amendments to this that are agreed to by Cabinet, that Cabinet agree to table those in the House so that the public and Members are aware of those changes. I seek that from the Minister, please.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman, we can table amendments in the House as they are made. Thank you.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, part of clause 4(2), "For greater certainty, any person or body may exercise the powers, rights, privileges and benefits conferred on the person or body by the Tlicho agreement and shall perform the duties and is subject to the liabilities imposed on the person or body by the Tlicho agreement." Can the Minister inform us as to how that would impact on citizens who are non-Tlicho?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, briefly this confirms that persons may exercise rights and liabilities contained within the Tlicho agreement, and binds the people and the bodies to follow all the obligations applied to them in the Tlicho agreement. Thank you.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A number of other questions that were asked yesterday in a couple of the other clauses were reflecting those that were non-Tlicho citizens. There was talk that, for example, the Tlicho government being a regional body, not the community government but at the top end would not make laws affecting non-Tlicho citizens, or would not impact them in that way. Can I get an explanation from that end? We had information provided yesterday to how that would be impacted, if there is an impact.
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Tlicho government, just as point of clarification, will have jurisdiction over Tlicho citizens and Tlicho lands. Primarily as an aboriginal government, it will concern itself with matters directly affecting Tlicho citizens and the Tlicho lands that it holds in something akin to the fee simple. There will be instances where Tlicho laws will affect non-Tlicho citizens when they make laws, for example, regarding the management of their own Tlicho lands. So I think that might bring some clarification to the question. How it ties in with subsection 4.2 of the claim agreement just makes it certain that all peoples with liabilities and rights under that agreement are bound by them.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Further in clause 4(3), "For great certainty, the Tlicho agreement is binding on, and can be relied on, by persons and bodies that are not parties to it." Again, in reference to some of the questions and answers yesterday and taking into account what Mr. Goldney has just stated about making laws and so on on lands, I can understand that because we have land claims in place that already have those provisions in place. I'm wondering beyond sort of lands or access to lands or who can go on lands, because again that's a familiar territory, but on the self-government side what does it mean for citizens, and this talks about third parties. Can we get some more detail on what that means?
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are several third-party obligations that were negotiated. The provision of the bill 4.7(3) confirms that third parties are bound by those obligations and that they can rely on the provisions within the Tlicho agreement. Some examples of third-party obligations in the Tlicho agreement are non-Tlicho residents of Tlicho communities are bound by Tlicho laws that abide all residents. For example, harvesting of fish, use of waters on Tlicho lands and setting of harvesting limits on any species or stock of fish by any person. This is something that's new in the Tlicho government; the ability for an aboriginal self-government to set these laws. Previous agreements have seen renewable resources boards established to help set these things, but the Tlicho agreement is unique in that it will establish a formal Tlicho government with law-making powers.
Also, all people, whether or not they were party to the Tlicho agreement, have access to certain rights. For example, the right to access information under the registrar of Tlicho laws. So this merely captures all those instances where people have rights under the agreement and are bound by the terms of the agreement.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With these being in place, again I'll just ask a question for the record. Does it meet the requirements of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Thank you.
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is the Department of Justice's view that it does, and I think we should also note that the constitution of the Tlicho government is required to meet or exceed the protections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's something the Tlicho constitution, the Tlicho have adopted the Charter of Rights and Freedoms wholly. So when their laws are being applied, they are measured against the same yardstick of individual rights and protections as this government's.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to perhaps get a bit more beyond the strict range than is covered by clause 4, Mr. Chairman. Let me know if I'm straying a bit too far. The issue that I've been asked to get some understanding on is the extent to which clause 4, in effect, is also the approval process for the subsequent bills that we will be asked to pass. The Minister, in his opening statement, said that two other pieces of legislation are to be considered by the next Assembly, the Tlicho Community Government Act and the Community Services Agency Act. But by saying in clause 4 that the Tlicho agreement is approved, given effect and declared valid and have the force of law, why then should the next Assembly expect to go through the normal approval process for these subsequent acts? What's the difference going to be? Thank you.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, there are two other pieces of legislation that are currently being drafted. They are close to completion; stage one is more complete than the other. They are the Tlicho Community Government Act, as well as the Tlicho Community Service Agency Act. These two acts we're anticipating will go to the 15th Legislative Assembly early on, whenever the next sitting is, probably sometime in February or March, and they would be ready to be introduced in the House. These two pieces of legislation will go through the regular process.
I know there has been concern raised by almost all the Members that Bill 34, Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, is something that should have gone out to the public, but these other two pieces would give that opportunity to the public to view the whole Tlicho Land Claim and Self-Government Act because the two pieces are contingent and part of Bill 34, as well. So there will be an opportunity at that time to do the proper work that the MLAs are known to carry out. Thank you.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you. Perhaps what I'll do is repeat a question, that I believe Mr. Dent just asked a little while ago, and it will relate to the two subsequent pieces of legislation. If you'll give me that latitude, Mr. Chairman. To the upcoming Community Government Act and Community Services Agency Act, will an amendment or change be permitted within our regular consultation process? Then the 15th Assembly undertakes those, or are those two bills going to be, like this one, closed to any further amendment by this Assembly?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I think there will be opportunity to do some amendments in terms of structure. I think the main content of what is being agreed will probably be there and how we get it done. I think those types of amendments will probably be permissible, but we have to consult with our counterparts and get it done. Thank you.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate those answers, and they're very much the way I understood the process to be. I fully recognize and I think most people across the NWT have recognized the way these laws, these acts are being built, the way they're being negotiated and designed is different from the process that's usually undertaken. It just does not permit the usual flexibility that we're used to in approving that. But I wanted to get that information out, because I want to understand very clearly then when these two acts do come before the next Assembly, there will be validity in the public hearing process that this is something that we will, I believe, undertake. We are not simply going to be going through a process of rubberstamping or automatically approving the subsequent acts.
I'll come back to clause 4 again. It's a very powerful, two-line sentence. "The Tlicho agreement is approved, given effect and declared valid, and has the force of law." So this really is the dilemma here where we recognize that this is the right thing to do, absolutely; but are we expecting too much or are we expecting the wrong things of our system if we say we can take this body of work, create it, build it, negotiate it, write it through a different set of circumstances, yet anticipate our routine access to it? It's probably not realistic. So I'm wondering -- and this is a question, it's a wonder for the next 15th Assembly to look at -- should we be considering some other approach to the approval of this kind of law.
We're going to be seeing more of this, Mr. Chairman. There are other self-government and land claim tables going on under negotiation. We have devolution under negotiation. Earlier today in this House we talked about the creation of the Wildlife Act. From my understanding, that is being negotiated and almost written again in a much broader consultative process than we normally undertake. So we have, I think, a host of upcoming legislation that subsequent assemblies are going to have to deal with. From the signals and the messages we're getting here, I think we need to be looking at a different way of handling it. I think these pressures are the kinds of pressures that we're experiencing, or that I'm experiencing, to accept this, to back it, to get behind it, are at odds with the kind of beliefs and rules and expectations that I think people have of us when we make laws.
So I guess this is where I'm trying to lay the ground here for a question that would try to examine the validity of a new approach to Legislative Assembly approval for this kind of document. Could I ask the Minister then, is this something that the next Assembly should be looking at, or is our normal process what we should be maintaining? Which way do we go? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair Paul Delorey
Thank you, Mr. Braden. We maybe strayed a bit from the intent of the bill here, but I'll give the Minister an opportunity to respond. Mr. Antoine.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, the Tlicho agreement requires the Government of the Northwest Territories to get the consent of the Tlicho government before introducing a bill to amend community government legislation. The two different pieces of legislation that are forthcoming in the next Assembly, which are the Tlicho Community Government Act and the Tlicho Community Service Agency Act, these two packages reflect what has been negotiated in a lot of detail. So in order to do the work that the next Assembly is going to do in the standing committee in reviewing the bill, it will probably require a new approach, like you say, to look at this Tlicho legislation, because it's totally different and unique from other normal government developed legislation. So there will probably need to be a set of directions on what could be done. The substantial elements of these two pieces of legislation are more or less already agreed upon by the three parties. But this obligation probably applies to the Executive of our government first. But once the bill is introduced then, of course, all Members are entitled to know how they want to vote, and their authority to do this is not fettered at all.
So while we must obtain the consent for the introduction of any amendments, they do require Tlicho consent to make changes to amend bills once they're introduced. So it's different than our previous approach, so certainly there has to be a careful look at how the committees will probably have to view this bill the next time around. Thank you.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my question first has to do with the section in the agreement dealing with the judicial proceedings, which is under section 7.6. It states in 7.6.4 and 7.6.6, Mr. Chairman, the capacity of the Tlicho government to act as a prosecutor in dealing with Tlicho laws or prosecuting Tlicho laws in the court of the Northwest Territories. As well, 7.6.6 deals with how those who are prosecuted under Tlicho law in NWT courts are how those convictions or whatever might come that way are enforced. I hope I'm clear about my question here. It certainly deals with how the laws of Tlicho and laws of the NWT will interact. So I would like to seek clarification from the Minister about what the meaning of this section is, first of all, and how would that work in practice. How would it work for the Tlicho laws to be enforced or prosecuted in the courts of the NWT? Am I correct to read that those are just for specific laws of Tlicho, as specified here? Thank you.
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is correct, these provisions deal with Tlicho laws, and where it provides for Tlicho prosecution of those laws it will be Tlicho laws that they're prosecuting and not territorial laws. Perhaps the best way to illustrate how it works is it would work much the same way as the territorial government has the ability to prosecute its own laws in a court, and the federal government has its ability to prosecute. This just sets out the same ability for the Tlicho to prosecute their own laws. Thank you.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I get information for the general public as to what are the major areas of Tlicho law that will be prosecuted under in this context? Thank you.
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The law-making powers of the Tlicho government are set out in the agreement and they include, for example, laws over Tlicho citizens in Tlicho lands; laws governing the enforcement of those laws; laws relating to the use and management and protection of Tlicho lands and the renewable and non-renewable resources on lands, including fish, wills, intestacy and the administration of the estates of Tlicho citizens; protection and promotion of Tlicho language, culture and heritage; social assistance; child and family services; adoption; education; pre-schooling; taxation and training by Tlicho government to Tlicho citizens. The agreement also provides for law-making authorities that apply to all residents in Tlicho communities on Tlicho lands and include laws related to Tlicho government structure and internal managements; management over wildlife, trees and plants; renewable and non-renewable resources; land use plans for Tlicho lands; aspects of fish harvesting; use of waters on Tlicho lands; heritage resources on Tlicho lands or in Tlicho communities.
So I think you can see from the list and the jurisdiction set out in the agreement, that it's primarily jurisdictions over Tlicho citizens and Tlicho lands. The expectation is that the Tlicho government will, as governments do, make laws under these jurisdictions, and when they do, they'll be able to prosecute those laws. Thank you.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that those are wide and broad areas, but at the same time they are specified and the Tlicho government does not have power to pass laws about everything. This agreement has sections that speak about the areas that the Tlicho government cannot enact laws about. At the same time, I'm still not clear as to how this will work. Are we envisioning two different judicial processes? Are we envisioning two different court systems, or is this agreement envisioning that while the Tlicho government has the power to enact laws and prosecute those who violate them, but that they will use the NWT court system to enact those laws? Am I correct in that understanding? Thank you.
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I believe the Member is correct in that understanding.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then I'd like to move on to the next section in the same topic area, where it states under section 7.6.6, it says that the GNWT is responsible for enforcing any fines or imprisonment order for violation of Tlicho law. So in reaching that and reading that with what has been stated here so far, I'm understanding that the Tlicho government will enact laws in certain specified areas, and that they would prosecute any violators under that law in the GNWT courts, and that the GNWT will be responsible for enforcing it. I read from that that the Tlicho citizens, if they are found to be in violation of the law and they are prosecuted, will end up in the GNWT correctional system. So I'm just wondering why this is the way it is. Is it a question of lack of resources, or is that the intention of the Tlicho government, and further what sort of agreement is there with the GNWT Department of Justice or the court system as to how to implement this in practice? Thank you.
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the intention there is partly it's resources, and that's why you see the GNWT enforcing laws, but it's also in recognition that the Tlicho agreement doesn't establish a separate court system, doesn't drastically alter the administration of justice in the Northwest Territories which falls to the Government of the Northwest Territories to enforce laws. That's why you have it that way. In practice, to expect that the GNWT will be enforcing laws of the Tlicho government in the same way it enforces its own laws and, in some circumstances, federal laws.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
I hope I'm not wrong in that, but I think the federal prosecution also prosecutes NWT laws where it's appropriate. Maybe the Law Clerk could advise on that.
I have a question on the next section dealing with conflict of laws. It says in 7.7.2 that if there is a conflict between Tlicho laws and the laws of Canada, the laws of Canada set the rules. But if there's a conflict between Tlicho laws and the GNWT law, Tlicho law sets the rules. So the way I read it, Canadian laws would trump Tlicho, but Tlicho would trump GNWT law. So now I need to know if that's the correct understanding.
Secondly, I believe that those trumping or the overriding of the powers of Tlicho laws over GNWT in certain circumstances would only be limited to the areas once again specified in this agreement. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the Member is correct. The paramountcy provided is a general rule; except where otherwise provided, Tlicho government laws will prevail over territorial laws. The Member is also correct that Tlicho government laws are restricted to where they have jurisdiction. If the Tlicho government enacts a law that it's found it has exceeded its jurisdiction, then like territorial or federal laws, those laws are ultra vires and have no force and effect. So it is quite limited to the jurisdictions that are set out in the agreement.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My next question has to do with coordination of program and service delivery. Under section 7.9.1. in the agreement it says that the Tlicho -- and I'm reading from the plain speak -- it says that the Tlicho government, Canada and the GNWT will find new and existing programs and services and they will work together to make sure programs and services are delivered properly. This is a pretty broad, general statement and I'd like to ask the Minister how this would translate in practice. Are there going to be formal agreements in place for that and, if so, the agreement that we're going to have before us, is that speaking to this specific provision? Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, this is setting up something unique with the Tlicho government and the territorial government providing programs and services. So the government and the Tlicho government will exercise their own powers to the extent practical in a manner where they will be coordinating the delivery of programs and services to the citizens in the Tlicho and, of course, to all residents of the Northwest Territories. So where there's a serious disruption in the delivery of programs or services on Tlicho lands or in the Tlicho communities, they will enter into discussions to reach agreement on how to deal with this disruption. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
So are these agreements going to be negotiated once the law comes into place, or are they being negotiated already, or were they negotiated while this agreement was being negotiated, at the same time? Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I think what the Member is talking about is that there is a 10-year agreement on the intergovernmental services that we have entered with the Tlicho as part of this agreement. So the current programs and services that the GNWT is providing plus others, there's an agreement through the negotiations that GNWT will continue to provide these programs and services for the 10 years. So there are other programs in there that if need be, will be negotiated. The intention here is that the Tlicho will have 10 years to build a capacity to run the programs themselves. So it's in the agreement and it will be dealt with through the other Tlicho community service agency legislation that will be coming forth. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If other Members have questions to ask, I will just stand down my time until later. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of areas, and I'm going to bounce back and forth a little bit here. In chapter 7, section 7.9.1. refers to the government and the Tlicho government shall exercise their respective powers to the extent practical in a manner that coordinates the delivery of programs and service provided to the Tlicho citizens of the Northwest Territories. Now in the plain speak model they have a little note that says the Tlicho government, Canada and the GNWT will fund new and existing programs and services, they will work together to make sure programs and services are delivered properly. I'm seeking some clarification. Who would initiate the new program or new funding for new programs than those existing already for program and delivery services in the Northwest Territories?
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Bargery
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The clause that the Member refers to is in there primarily because there are some concurrent law-making jurisdictions that may result in program and service delivery. The clause is in there to ensure that there's a coordination of programs and services that would be delivered. The agreement itself doesn't speak to new program areas, other than what's delivered. So if there is a new program area, I guess that would be up to the government responsible to fund, if that was the question, Mr. Chairman.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, under chapter 26, the economic measures section, 26.4.1, "It is intended that this chapter be implemented through programs and policies which are in place and from time to time without imposing any additional financial obligation on government." Can we get some clarity of that section?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Bargery
I think this clause is an important clause to ensure that there isn't any financial obligation, but some of the programs and policies in place, for example in the GNWT would be the business incentive policy, one of economic incentive-type program that would be intended through this particular clause. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the deputy for that response. One other question, and it comes under chapter 7, 7.4.4(n) solemnization of marriages on Tlicho lands. How would the Charter of Rights and Freedoms apply in this area? Knowing that the laws of Canada are changing in that area, will that allow for same sex marriages and so on?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The provision referred to is one of the jurisdictions set out by the Tlicho governments, and again the Tlicho constitution provides that the Tlicho government is bound by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, so the same laws that it applies are in the same way that our laws are bound by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If a court was to ultimately rule on the issue of same sex marriages was a discriminatory practice that wasn't justified under the Charter, that same ruling would apply to Tlicho laws.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question on the intergovernmental services agreement. I'm just reading through this plain speak, which is actually quite helpful because it does say very clearly what the agreements are agreed on. It says here under section 7.10.3 that under the intergovernmental services agreement, Canada and the GNWT will continue to pay for and manage programs like health, education, welfare family and social services. I see that this is in line with the jurisdiction that the Tlicho government is taking over, because I believe that's parallel to I think it's section 7.4 where it speaks about the areas that the Tlicho government is going to cover. It's one of the areas that the government is going to take over. I think this is the kind of area that people want to know more about. I know certainly the people who I represent want to know what sort of implication and impact this agreement would have on the GNWT, and the money question is a big issue. So I'd like to know from the Minister, seeing as he's the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs but he's still a Minister of the territorial government, a public government, and I'd to know what sort of implication, to his understanding, does this have to the financial status of the GNWT. Is it understood that this money that will be going to the Tlicho government to deliver these programs, will it come out of the GNWT budget, or is there an understanding that there is going to be new monies coming from the Government of Canada for the Tlicho government? Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, the Tlicho community service agreement will deliver services to all residents; education and social services in the Tlicho communities, much like the Dogrib Community Services Board does now and it will be established under our legislation. The current cost to the GNWT to provide that will still be there, so the funding will be coming from the GNWT for that. We're saying that it will minimize any incremental costs to the GNWT. So there will be a very small extra cost other than what we're currently providing to provide that service. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I must confess I'm still not clear as to how this is going to work. I understand that we're looking at a time quite a few years down the road, because I understand that the Tlicho government has set aside 10 years to have the opportunity to build capacity. Understandably the government and its people are going to be asked to do a lot and there are a lot of things to take care of in terms of training its people and getting their human resources up to capacity and such. So I understand this. But in the end, five or 10 years down the road, are we envisioning a situation where we'll get the transfer payment from the federal government, the pot of money that we do now, but that in the simplest terms, if I could just put it in a simple way, we're sort of agreeing on a formula financing with the Tlicho government where the Tlicho government will tell us that they will be serving 2000 people and provide programs A, B, C, D, E for 2000 people or whatever, because usually it's per capita, and we would expect to have this X dollar amount. Is that a simple but a correct way of looking at how the Tlicho government will be funded? Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Bargery
Mr. Chairman, under the agreement, as has been noted, the Tlicho gain certain law-making authorities and can deliver programming to Tlicho people. What they've agreed to through the intergovernmental services agency, as the Minister noted, is to deliver those larger social envelope programming to all residents through an agency established through our legislation. For the first 10-year period things will operate in that respect, much the same way as they do today through the Dogrib Community Services Board. The Tlicho have the ability to make laws, deliver programs for Tlicho people in future. The funding of those programs in future, I guess it's unknown at this point. One option would be the GNWT could vacate the education dollars, for example, for Tlicho citizens and the Tlicho could take those over. There's no obligation to doing that, but that's one that could be envisioned could flow through us. I hope that answers the Member's question, Mr. Chairman.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
I understand this is very complex and I understand there are the 10 years, sort of the gap years, of Tlicho and GNWT to get ready for that, so there's a 10-year preparation period. But I'm trying to see what this agreement means, and specifically this financing section of this agreement for years down the road when everything is sort of implemented the way it is envisioned in this legislation. The way I see it, the Tlicho government will take over the jurisdiction of those social envelopes, whether they be education, health, adoption, custody, all the items that are outlined in section 7.4. I also understand that the Tlicho government will provide these services to not only Tlicho residents but anybody who lives in that area, that they will take over that responsibility. So logically then I have to deduce from that that the GNWT will be out of that. I don't think we're going to see the GNWT and Tlicho government both providing the same services to the same people there. In order for the Tlicho government to do that, they are going to ask for that money from the GNWT to be transferred, and we may even see a time when the money will go straight from the federal government to the Tlicho government. I don't think any judgment should be made there. I think that people want to know what the agreements mean. Is that what it means? Am I seeing the scenario down the road correctly? That's my question.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, the intergovernmental service agreement will be put in place before this agreement comes into effect. The ISA, as it is called, was negotiated and agreed upon. The initial term is for 10 years and it can be renewed as long as all parties agree. So this ISA requires this Tlicho community service agency to be established by our legislation in the territorial government, so the next term, 15th Assembly, will have this legislation in front of them to thoroughly examine it.
We are currently drafting a proposal on this one. What I indicated earlier said education and social services are going to be delivered to all residents, similar to what the Dogrib Community Services Board is delivering. So the funding and the way they've been doing the work is similar, it's just switching over from one agency to the other, and we anticipate the incremental cost to be minimal.
The legislation will have a list of programs and services that this agency will deliver, and these services must be delivered as a priority over other services. If there's an amendment, then it has to be done by the Tlicho government and GNWT. If there are additional programs and services to be delivered, then we must have consent on that, and the funding for additional programs have to be sought. If the additional programs and services are proposed by the Tlicho or Canada, then we have to look for the funding for these additional programs. As the Government of the Northwest Territories we must consult with the Tlicho government and Government of Canada before assigning additional programs and services for the agency to delivery. So, yes, there may be other programs and services that may be added to the duties of the Tlicho community service agency in the future, other than what is currently being provided in the Dogrib Community Services Board, but there is a process outlined on how that is to be done. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, maybe just tell us whose land claim is this anyway that we're talking about here.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is a Tlicho land claims and self-government agreement. It defines the rights of the Tlicho. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on 4.2, rights and obligations; does this agreement apply to Yellowknife or the Delta? Will those people be affected by this agreement? Will they be able to get rights and benefits out of this agreement living in Yellowknife or living in the Delta?
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
This agreement establishes a Tlicho government in the Tlicho area, and it defines the Tlicho rights. So does it affect people in Yellowknife and the Delta or other places directly? No.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that's exactly my point. I think everybody is assuming that everybody has to be a part of this agreement. I don't think as an MLA from the Delta that I have influence on what goes on in Yellowknife and vice versa. But as we can see, these land claim agreements are for those geographical areas that have claims settled in those areas. What goes on in the Inuvialuit land claim area is the Inuvialuit's responsibility. What goes on in the Gwich'in settlement area is the Gwich'in responsibility. The same thing applies to the Sahtu, and now it applies to the Tlicho. I don't think that we as legislators that sit here and try to make it look like we have influence on what's going to happen here, because technically the agreement has been concluded, it has been signed off by the Prime Minister of Canada, now it's just a matter of it getting Royal Assent. In order for this agreement to take effect, it has to receive Royal Assent through the Parliament of Canada. In order for those rights and obligations to be implemented, what goes on here is just a formality, it isn't going to have a...
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I did touch on clause 4.2, and that's the section I'm talking about with regard to rights and obligations. I think I've heard people speak on different sections of the agreement which were way off in left field compared to clause 4. So I would just like to make reference to 4.2, rights and obligations.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Well, I was working on it but I was cut off, so maybe I'll try it again. My point is that this agreement in regard to the rights and obligation applies to people in the Tlicho agreement and the federal government by way of establishing legislation which will give it Royal Assent when it passes through Parliament. So in regard to what we're hearing here about how this government seems to think it has some influence on what goes on in this agreement, that will happen when the legislation comes forth to be able to establish the Tlicho governance act and other acts that apply to the Northwest Territories. Those acts are not going to be in the legislature until the 15th Assembly, which will happen sometime in the spring. So I think it's more of a formality that we're going through here with regard to what's in this act. So I would just like to ask the Minister exactly what's the intent of this procedure in light of knowing that the final decision will be made by the Parliament of Canada?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, my understanding of clause 4 and the intent of this is that we are the binding effect on persons is I understand a standard clause that is viewed in all land claims settlement legislation with the federal government involved. What we're doing here today is part of the ratification process to move the Tlicho land claims and self-government forward. The intention is to ratify this part of it. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to the agreement and the rights that apply from this agreement, those rights only apply to the Tlicho citizens who reside in the Tlicho area. I would like to note for the record that's who this agreement is going to affect. It isn't going to affect people living in Yellowknife or anywhere else outside of the Tlicho area. This agreement is their agreement. For us to sit here and go on and on and on and try to be lawyers and professors like we think we're doing justice, I think we're doing an injustice to this without proceeding. So I'd just like to ask the Minister exactly how many people is this agreement going to affect directly?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, it will affect all the Dogrib, the Tlicho citizens. I don't know exactly what the numbers are. Thank you.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
So, Mr. Chairman, with some 94 percent of the people that did go to vote with a large majority of people voting in favour, their ratification should mean something in the sense that they ratified their agreement with a large number of the population saying that this is what they can live with through the ratification process. So with that, as a government what can we do to basically change that process? It has already been ratified. Can this government change the process after it has been ratified?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, from the previous question, there are other non-Tlicho residents in the Tlicho area as well, and I should add that to be clear.
To this question specifically, the Tlicho have already ratified their agreement through their vote this summer, so their part is done. Our part is not done. We're doing it now, part of it, there are two other pieces that still have to be done in the next government, but this is the main one that will eventually be the first to give effect.
The federal government still has to introduce their legislation. We understand it's going to happen in December, and they'll go through the House of Commons and Senate to ratify it. So this is part of our ratification process. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I was just going to ask a question of the Minister with regard to the land claims expenses that have been incurred. Is this government going to pay any of the $28 million that the Tlicho people will have to pay for those negotiations? Is the Government of the Northwest Territories picking up any of that tab?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Well, the way I understand the agreement, this is part and parcel of the Tlicho agreement, and this is a clause that applies to the general...(inaudible)...of the agreement, and there is a payback provision in the agreement which talks about monies that have to be paid back for negotiations, as part of the payback division. So it is a part of the Tlicho agreement. So if I can't ask that question, I think you should stick to your rules and apply them to everybody.
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David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
It does apply to 4.1, the effect of the Tlicho agreement. The Tlicho agreement is the overall agreement. In that agreement there is a section that talks about a payback where Tlicho people would have to pay back some $28 million for the negotiations that have occurred to date. So they are part of not only the cash settlement, but they will also have to pay back those negotiated loans. It is part of the Tlicho agreement.
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The Chair Paul Delorey
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Krutko, could you define what part of the Tlicho agreement you're referring to so I can refer to the Minister? Mr. Krutko.
Maybe I'll ask the Minister if he is aware of the section that Mr. Krutko is referring to. Mr. Antoine.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman, in regard to the financial payments. The funding of this claims process was done through a program that the federal government has in their comprehensive claims policy, where they advance funding to the claimant groups that will eventually come out of the overall compensation of their claim. So it's an advance on their claim through the federal program. So the GNWT doesn't provide any assistance in that area. Thank you.
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as the Minister stated, we are going through our territorial ratification process, and he stated yesterday that by giving effect to clause 4 and ratifying it in this House, it sets a huge trend to the rest of the Northwest Territories. Although I am asking questions more for the public record on this process, I think it is good for the rest of the citizens of the North and those people I represent, because self-governments are happening all over the rest of the Northwest Territories and this could impact them and the services available if the funding situation gets difficult. I know for the government right now, for example, we're paying in the area of millions of dollars for our staff to take part in the negotiations, which is a good thing we've done.
But based on that, there's one other question, Mr. Chairman, that I'd like to know. By giving effect to this agreement in clause 4, are we tying our hands as the Government of the Northwest Territories to any further agreements with Canada in the area of devolution?
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a general statement first and then reply just to put it in context. Whenever there's a claim negotiated, in this case the Tlicho agreement, there are a set of rules that are set out in the agreement. This clause wants to ensure that everybody who is going to be involved, like the boards and others, abide by these rules. In this way it's focused on the Tlicho and whoever is involved close to their area. The Tlicho are involved in the whole devolution and resource revenue sharing as a separate type of a process, and at this stage we don't anticipate any negative repercussions because of ratifying this Tlicho claim. Thank you.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes the areas I had particular comments or questions that I wanted to get out for the record for my constituents and that deals with the areas that I have for clause 4. Thank you.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one question in the area of clause 7 and it refers to this government and I believe the appropriations this Assembly makes. Can the Minister inform us as to what is referenced there as to such sums that are required to be paid out of monies appropriated from the consolidated revenue fund? Is that process going to take part as we are accustomed to through budget planning and main estimate reviews? Thank you.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
That is correct, Mr. Chairman. No money from the Government of the Northwest Territories can be paid without legislative authority for appropriation. Thank you.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister give some information as to the criteria that is used to determine the monetary obligations as the clause states? What are the criteria that are used to determine those obligations? Thank you.
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Bargery
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In this clause there may be some minimal financial obligations, examples of those and the reasons for this clause in there, under the dispute resolution mechanisms in the agreement we would have to pay our own costs to participate in those. Another cost that is envisioned, the GNWT would pay one-third of the cost for the cultural coordinator, about $60,000 on an annual basis. Those are two of the types of costs but there aren't many direct costs to the GNWT resulting from this agreement that aren't funded through an incremental funding agreement with the Government of Canada.
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So the kind of expenditures that are anticipated here are really quite nominal then, Mr. Chairman. We are not talking about any program dollars or capital dollars that these are really, I get the sense, quite nominal, quite small and so are the parts of the agreement. Have I got that right? Thank you.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Yes, Mr. Chairman. This will allow the Government of the Northwest Territories to meet our minimal financial obligation under this Tlicho agreement. It is similar to the statutory supplementary budget appropriation but it is very minimal. Thank you.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if I could just follow up on that. How long does the agreement go with Canada, is it sort of a never-ending agreement for incremental costs or does it have a time limit?
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Bargery
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The agreement with Canada is a 10-year agreement, $8 million over that 10-year period, and then renegotiation, and that is a similar type of agreement then that we have with existing land claims, which are also renegotiated financing agreements.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If in 10 years the Government of the Northwest Territories wasn't successful in negotiating a similar agreement with Canada, let's say for some reason they absolutely refuse to provide the funding, would that allow the Government of the Northwest Territories, Legislative Assembly then not to approve the funds if there was no flow through?
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Bargery
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The way the money will work for the $8 million over the 10 years, it would come into the GNWT and go through our budgetary process much like other land claim incremental funding agreements. There is about four or five through the main estimates. If there isn't a financing agreement at the end of that period for our ongoing costs to meet our obligations, I don't know of any other way that they could be done other than the ordinary appropriation process. I should add that we have been able to renegotiate agreements at the other tables, so we don't anticipate that problem. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Charles Dent Frame Lake
I think that this was actually answered earlier. There is no way that this government would necessarily or they would be stuck for monies that didn't get voted by the Assembly, so I think the question has been answered but I just wanted some more detail. Thank you.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question on clause 8 in regard to the Tlicho tax treatment agreement and I know that this was mentioned already yesterday, but I still have some clarifications that I want to get and I do believe that this might be my last chance to do this. If I may, Mr. Chairman, I just want to express the need and the reason why some of these questions should be asked. I know that we have people in the gallery. I understand that I ask them not to take these questions as any criticism or anything like that, I hope that they understand that this is the ratification process. I hope they understand that we have not had a chance to do a wide level of consultation on this bill and this is a way to get the information out to the residents of the Territories about the work that they have done. I notice that there are negotiators in the gallery as well, and this is something that they have been working on for a very long time and it is quite complex and we need to have the information out there. My purpose in asking questions is simply that for me to understand and for me to be able to tell the people I represent about what this means. I believe that this agreement has pretty specified provisions so I think often when we don't know what is in it, there are more alarms and questions than knowing what is in it and so far it is quite straightforward.
I just want to ask a question on section 8, Mr. Chairman. Let's just go back to the Tlicho tax treatment agreement, which I understand had to be signed before the actual agreement could be initialled. It had to be done because it was required by another federal law section here and you can't help but be a little bit legalese here because we are talking about a legal document. I understand that the Tlicho government will have power to tax Tlicho citizens. Does that include people who live on the Tlicho land who might not be Tlicho citizens? Do they have the power to tax those people? Thank you.
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Bargery
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Tlicho government has direct taxation authority for Tlicho citizens who live on Tlicho land or in Tlicho communities, but it is limited to Tlicho citizens.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Could I ask what is the difference between tax sharing or coordination agreement versus the tax treatment agreement that the Tlicho government has with the Government of Canada?
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Bargery
I will take a stab at it, Mr. Chairman. Tax sharing would be when a government, for example, the Government of Canada decides to share some of their tax revenues with the Tlicho government and they can do that through the Tlicho agreement by agreement only. Tax coordination would be things like the harmonization of rates and the collection of those taxes. For example, if the Government of Canada chose to share some of its taxes with the Tlicho government, things would happen much the same way the Canadian Customs and Revenue Agency would collect those taxes through a tax coordination agreement, I believe. I think that answers the Member's question, Mr. Chairman.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So far from what I am reading, I understand that the Tlicho government as a government, and being a government like any other government, will be exempt from paying taxes, but that it is not looking at, for lack of a better word, the government is not asking for exemption from GST, for example, or fuel tax or any of the consumption tax or the tax regimes that are imposed by the federal government or territorial government, or tobacco tax or payroll tax. So the citizens of Tlicho would continue to pay that tax and there is no change in that. Am I correct in that understanding? Thank you.
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Bargery
I apologize, Mr. Chairman, I wasn't sure of what the Member was asking about the Tlicho government of which the tax treatment agreement is intended to address or whether Tlicho citizens would continue to pay taxes. If I could get that clarification, Mr. Chairman.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you. This is why this tax question gets so complicated. I thought I had it pretty straight there in the beginning. I am trying to understand what this tax treatment agreement means and I have a briefing note in front of me and I am trying to verify what it is saying there. As far as I can see, it says here that the Tlicho government will be exempt from paying taxes like any other government. For example the GNWT does not pay GST and/or any taxes like that when they purchase things, so I understand that that is the same privilege that the Tlicho government will have. I guess I am seeking confirmation on that and then maybe I will ask the second question. Thank you.
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to say that on this tax treatment agreement, Canada's practice when they enter into these tax treatment agreements with aboriginal governments, they have been doing that rather than amending the Income Tax Act every time a self-government agreement is negotiated. So in this case, the Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Agreement Act gives this tax treatment agreement the force of law and this is needed to provide the legal framework for recognition of the Tlicho government and its corporation under the Income Tax Act. I just wanted to say that first, so it is a way that they do it to have this in place. For income tax purposes, the Tlicho government will be treated as a public body, as a government, performing a function of government so that it will not pay taxes on income generated from performing their function as a government. Thank you.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you. One aspect of this agreement is the government is a tax paying agent but the other thing has to do with the Tlicho government as a government, and like any other government it is going to have taxing powers on the citizens. As well, the Tlicho government is in a negotiation with the Canadian government to do some sort of tax sharing or getting some of its tax shares so that they could have the money to run their government. So I want to know what is the picture down the road under this agreement? Is the Tlicho government looking at asking for some of the GST money or income tax money that is coming out of the GNWT or the NWT or any consumption taxes that the GNWT is collecting or the Canadian government is collecting and is the Tlicho government going to be looking for their share of that tax revenue? So I guess that is a pretty straightforward question. Thank you.
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Bargery
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said yesterday, the agreement is permissive in allowing for tax sharing agreements with either the Government of the Northwest Territories or the Government of Canada. We are not in negotiations with the Tlicho at this time for the sharing of taxes. We understand that the Government of Canada is with respect to income tax and perhaps GST. I don't know and I can't say today if the Tlicho will ask in the future, but they can. The agreement allows for that, but for such an agreement it does not obligate it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Sandy Lee Range Lake
Thank you. Under this agreement does the power for the Tlicho government to get into tax sharing or a tax sharing agreement with the federal government, do they have to make the NWT government a part of negotiating a partnership or could that agreement be negotiated and agreed upon just between the Tlicho government and the Government of Canada?
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Bargery
With respect to a tax sharing agreement that could be a bilateral agreement to do with federal taxes, Mr. Chairman, I believe that is the discussion that is underway, it is a bilateral discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, yesterday in asking the questions about this government's authority to deal with this act, the Minister gave me information that in fact right now as a government we don't have the authority to deal with this piece of legislation until the federal act is put in. There is also, and I think it was Mr. Goldney, you referred to ultra vires or something of that nature, that in fact it can sit in there until the federal government has that ability. For clarity sake, the legislation we are passing will sort of sit out there until the federal government deals with their legislation and then it comes into force, correct?
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The federal settlement legislation will address something of an uncertainty with respect to the GNWT's jurisdiction over Indians and lands reserved for Indians. There is some question as to whether or not the GNWT has the legislative authority to enact legislation such as a settlement legislation that deals with Indians as Indians. With that said, it is not certain that the GNWT doesn't because this is much more than an act dealing with Indians as Indians, this is an act to ratify a solemn treaty that is aimed at the reconciliation of the imposition of Canadian sovereignty on the aboriginal peoples. It was also noted yesterday that previous jurisdictions have introduced settlement legislation, the Yukon territory and also recently, and the legislature of British Columbia passed the Nishga'a Settlement Act.
However, to deal with that question, the Government of Canada has agreed to make amendments to the NWT Act to make it absolutely clear that there is legislative authority and while retroactively less if need be, should someone challenge the authority of this legislature to enact this legislation.
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Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank Mr. Goldney for that response. When I look at clause 13, it is very open, it is a very common one that we do as legislators and as government. But based on the responses from the Minister and his staff, I have considered that to ensure for our government's sake that we don't put something in place that someone can just throw a challenge at. I figure we can tighten it up as far as we can as the Government of the Northwest Territories by making that clause a little more clear to the fact it specifies to the federal legislation. So on that, Mr. Chairman, I do have a motion to amend clause 13, that would reflect the response that we received from the Minister and his staff on this area and I would be prepared to move it at this time.
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