Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm beginning to see why it's so hard to get anything done and bring some positive results to areas when we're trying to get answers. You talk about tinkering and probably that's what we've been doing all afternoon, I guess, but we're certainly not getting answers. Probably part of the reason is exactly what the Minister just finished saying, it's not just co-payments, it's a lot of other things. If we want to find a way to do absolutely nothing, I guess that's how we do it. Let's bury it with 100 or 1000 other pieces of legislation and areas, and then we'll never get anything done because we'll never find an answer for all of them and we can't do one of them at a time if it's the only issue that's being addressed.

But I wanted to go back, if I can. I didn't get any answers to my previous line of questioning. I wanted to ask the Minister a few more questions, and then I'm going to leave this, although it won't be a dead issue, I guarantee it. But in training for counsellors, when we look at alcohol and drug counselling and addictions, there have been people working in this territory very hard -- extremely diligently, as the Minister would say -- to try and eradicate and deal with addictions. If the program didn't work, it has been stated many times, it's because the department didn't give it an opportunity to work, to do the proper training, to make sure that our counsellors are certified.

I'm hearing now through this totally new program that they have no idea if it's going to work, because they're in the concept stage. Would the Minister state right now that the department has given up on using the standards that were established by the Canadian Addictions Counsellors' Certification Board? Has the department decided that they will not use that model and are not going to go into that area? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.