This is page numbers 855 - 890 of the Hansard for the 15th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 885

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

So, Mr. Chairman, the answer is we have essentially no recourse. There is no one we can go back to accept that some of us may be involved in the hit that everybody is going to experience or has already experienced because of higher fuel costs, but the volumes and the slippage on this one are really quite remarkable.

Mr. Chairman, I guess we will move on, but I would like to leave a comment and I relate this to a discussion I had with a Yellowknife architect awhile ago. When it comes to putting up a building, there is a bit of a shift or quite a large shift now in terms of the planning and the budgeting for these not to look at what it costs to build and open something, but what it costs to keep that building going over its projected lifespan. This might be something that if it's not already on the radar screen for our buildings and planners, perhaps we should be looking at it.

Perhaps we have an upside down way of looking at this. Sometimes, Mr. Chairman, in our desire to get something built, we want to get it build as quickly and cheaply as possible. Of course, it always looks good to be able to cut a ribbon, but sometimes we don't incorporate what is the eventual and overall hit to the taxpayer, which, over the lifespan of a building will be many, many times more than it cost to put up. So I think we oftentimes incur a false economy when we put up perhaps a less expensive building for the sake of getting it up, but we are not very cognizant of what it costs over subsequent years. We always think we will leave that up to somebody else to figure out. I wonder if this is an illustration of not using that philosophy. We are not thinking how much it's really going to cost us to keep this place going for the next 30 or 50 years, whatever its life design is. Then we would have a more representative, accurate and responsible way of assessing the cost of putting up these buildings. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 885

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 885

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I would say I agree with the Member's comments on lifecycle costs. It's something that we have started using as a government and will continue to use. I guess as a bit of a background, the project started in its designing and planning back in 1998-99 and initially started out as a P3 project and went to a standard government project. One of the things that could be happening here is back in 1998-99, rates for power and everything else were significantly different. I will just have

to state that, as I noted earlier, that we have taken note and we will be looking at dealing with the department in getting more details on the specifics. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

October 20th, 2004

Page 886

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not still clear as to what went wrong with this budgeting process. Was there something discovered in the two years that this has been in operation that something was not built in physically, or was it just a simple case of underestimating the cost of fuel, power and maintenance?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess ultimately we've come down to the fact that there was an underestimating of the consumption of power and the gas, as well as maintenance required for the facility. The facility did double in size from just over 4,000 square metres to over 8,000 square metres. The new code requirements for air exchange units and air cooling systems add more to the cost of the ongoing daily operation of that.

For example, from 2002-03 to 2003-04 the heating costs increased by over 80 percent. Power consumption has more than doubled from just over one million kilowatts to just over 2.5 million kilowatts. I guess the PY for keeping the place properly maintained, the hours increased significantly, so they had to add another position. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Lee.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If you look at the budget for 2003-04, the budget for the fuel was $320,000, but the actual expenditure was $620,000. That's $300,000 more. It's almost 100 percent more than what was budgeted. For power, the budget was $440,000, but the actual rate was $1.018 million. That's $578,000 more. That's more than 100 percent of what was originally budgeted. I think maintenance costs are maybe two-thirds of a PY more and one could see that as something that could happen, but for heating fuel and power, we are talking about 100 percent more than was originally thought. This is not an old building. This is a new building. It was architecturally designed, we spent millions of dollars designing it and building it and I don't think the fuel cost went up by 100 percent in a year. I still don't understand how that could happen. So in each year now, we have a $919,000 deficit for 2003-04, we have a $925,000 deficit for 2004-05 and we don't know what's going to come next year. I think this House has to get a better explanation, given that this is a new building. It's a state-of-the-art building. If they could not see how much fuel and power the building could consume, you have to begin to wonder what else do they not know about that building that's going to come back to bite us.

I need a better explanation as to why it was 100 percent or more than what was originally planned. I also need to know if the Minister is now budgeting $1 million more every year for power and utilities.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. All I can say again is we will be working to improve how our estimates are formed around the consumption. The growth, as stated by Ms. Lee, has been around the consumption of heating fuel, as well as power. Yes, in fact, almost $1 million has been added to the budget for Health and Social Services to provide for the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Board. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Next I have Mr. Ramsay.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I will start off with asking the question why a new hospital that was twice the size of the old hospital was using a budget based on 2002-03 actuals of the old hospital. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the numbers that were provided were using just actual costs in comparison to where the costs are now. So it wasn't budgeted based on the old hospital, just comparing the 2002-03 year with the actuals for 2003-04 to show the increases that occurred. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Then where would we find the actual budgeted amounts for that hospital? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman; if I can have the member repeat his question.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just wondering where Members might find the actual budget for that new hospital in terms of maintenance, heating fuel and power consumption.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd have to get more of a breakdown as to when the first full year of operation was in. They've just moved into it, so I believe the 2002-03 year was a partial year, 2003-04 was a full year. So it's hard to do the comparison, but I can get that information for Members. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 886

The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.