Thank you. It's page 11-12, contributions under corporate management. There's the maximizing northern employment initiative, but Mackenzie Valley development contributions, $975,000, the Member has referred to some of the detail. The Aboriginal Pipeline Group, $250,000 a year goes to fund the work plan that they've submitted. There are a number of sub-initiatives under this. Mainly they're doing some things in order to meet with financial institutions to try to secure funding. Obviously they only have the first stage in funding here. There's still much more to be secured and a lot of negotiation under that. The $250,000 is going to be used for that initiative and others.

The $300,000; a lot of consultation going on, community consultation, and there's a need to help communities engage in this consultation. There are a lot of requirements on communities and resources are stretched very thin. We're doing what we can to help community organizations meet this task head on. We think it's important to support them in this regard. DIAND also provides some support and plays a major role in this, but we felt that we needed to take the initiative as well. Again, this was in the interest of being out in front of this file and making sure development didn't pass communities by. That was our feeling on this.

The private sector partnership fund works with private industry to help them engage in training and capacity building. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Braden.

Okay, this is maybe a bit of a double-edged sword here, Mr. Chairman, but I'll give it a try. I know that the government has been accused, and more or so rightly, for many years at the community level for creating pots of support and resources they can tap into, but then binding them up so completely in terms and conditions and they have to deliver reports and audits and all sorts of other things that sometimes the support is more trouble than it's worth. Still, we are putting taxpayers' money out there and a considerable amount of it. What kind of reporting back and deliverables, progress, performance can or has the department got on these programs? Have we some indication of the benefit and the value that is coming out of this? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Bell.

Thank you. I think the Member has hit on something here that obviously we've had discussion about in the past. It's the need to find this very fine balance. We're not looking to make the administration or the reporting requirements so overly onerous that we restrict the ability of our partners to do good, meaningful work. That said, we obviously have to operate within the confines of the Financial Administration Act and there are, as it relates to contributions, a number of things that have to be met, both for one-time contributions and ongoing. We have to ensure that when it's public money being spent that those criteria are being met. There's also a need to continue to measure not only our contributions, but the programs and services that we deliver to residents of the Northwest Territories continually to make sure that the reasons for delivering these programs or making these contributions are still valid, continue to be valid and we need to measure the progress and the success that we're having or aren't having and re-evaluate when that's necessary, as well. I know the Member has made this point over the years that in terms of performance measurement and other types of measurement, it's important that we have some baseline data, that we set measurable goals and objectives for this money and that we do the follow-up measurement and then assess whether or not we're meeting our objectives. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Braden.

So then, Mr. Chairman, in relation to these three areas that the Minister outlined in his opening remarks -- to the APG, to aboriginal organizations and to the private sector partnership fund -- do we have a series of realistic measurements that can be reported back to the Assembly? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. They are different programs and need to be measured, I think, each on their own basis and their own merits. For instance, the work of the Aboriginal Pipeline Group that we're paying for is largely administrative and, really, we think the return on the reward will be as the overall project comes to fruition. We can provide an accounting back to the Assembly of how the $250,000 is being spent on that program and on the other areas that we make contributions, as well. I think in terms of the APG, largely it's administrative help and support that we're providing with that $250,000.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Braden.

Okay, I'm not going to ride the puck on this anymore other than to try and make a point again. It's easy to provide accounting. You say you spent this much on supplies and this much on travel. That doesn't tell me very much at all. I need to know that when we buy into an initiative or program that we have an objective, that it's realistic, that it's attainable and that there's a way of telling me whether or not we're getting there. Those are the kinds of things I need to see, that I'd really like to see across the board. I just reinforce that as we go about creating this much-needed coordinating approach to things in the Mackenzie Valley that we can indeed do this. The communities in the valley seem to be sending that message loud and clear. Certainly we heard it very clearly and very plainly from the mayor of Norman Wells a few days ago. This government I think has its marching orders in that area. That's all. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Bell.

Thank you. I think the Member makes a very valid point and certainly we have much more internal data. The Member knows, for instance, just to use an example, in the maximizing northern employment program we generate a lot of internal data to measure, for instance, how our money is being spent and the number of trainees that go through a program. I can go region by region, pick the private sector partnership fund, I can pick the partner, the region, find out what communities, find out the project total in terms of expenditure. If I go through one line here and look at one enterprise that was partnered with us in class 1 driver training I can tell you that there were 15 trainees that applied for training and that there were 15 actual trainees and the project was completed and I can tell you the dollar expenditures on that project. I am more than willing to share that kind of information with committee. I think we tend to get bogged down in information, but I assure the Member that we do track this and it's important to make sure that where public funds are being expended, they're being expended for the purposes that had been intended and that we actually track and ensure that there is completion of these projects and where we set out to train people, that's actually taking place. I certainly take the Member's point.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Braden, your time is up. I'm going now to Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It seems like we're in a dominoes effect. We're just waiting for the word to go. Once the word goes and the domino effect takes place and we're getting ready for the Mackenzie gas pipeline. We're trying to get all our ducks lined up in order. The important part is getting the communities involved in the process. With the Mackenzie Valley development project, I am really glad that the Minister and the government is looking at a joint initiative with us and hopefully with the communities and having everybody buy into the process, into how you can get all the communities down the Mackenzie Valley and in the Northwest Territories involved in this process. I don't mind the government going out and attending some of the conferences, seminars and workshops with regard to the Mackenzie gas project, but I would like to see it being brought to my attention by the Sahtu people and see them invited along to the conferences to speak. Who has the authority in terms of speaking on behalf of people in the Sahtu? There are land claims obligations that are needing to be fulfilled and land claims obligations that need to be respected and it's something the people fought strongly for, that they have say in the development of their lands and resources and the economic benefits that go along with that development. So my question is what type of initiatives is he going to involve in terms of having some of the people in the regions and communities, organizations, in having working relationships with the Government of the Northwest Territories and the communities in the Sahtu to show industry that we are together on this? The GNWT has questioned the communities. They are speaking the same language in terms of the Mackenzie gas project.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take the Member's point. It is certainly important for us to be together with the regions and the communities and ensure that we are working hand in hand and we are in lockstep with what our partners across the Northwest Territories to meet this challenge head on. We do have, through the Mackenzie Valley planning division, internally some, albeit limited, resources. We are scrambling, I will have to admit, to keep up. This is a huge development we are talking about. There are huge pressures on our organization. We really are asking a lot of our regional petroleum advisors. That's no secret. These people are having to undertake a lot of work and, of course, there is work going on in communities. I know MACA is doing work with communities to build capacity specifically on this oil and gas file. So there are a number of different initiatives that we have underway and we continue to believe that it has to be done in a consolidated manner. That's why I am very optimistic that a good approach is this joint committee.

The Member referred to travel budgets and engaging local communities in some of this capacity building. We have to be, and we do some of this work in the regions, but it is limited. I acknowledge that. Much of that is because the resources at this point are still under control of the federal government. The federal government still has various pockets of money that they bring to bear for capacity building. We don't believe it's enough. We believe they haven't been holding up their end of the bargain in this regard in terms of substantial funding for community organizations. The Member does know we are particularly strapped, especially with a 25 percent reduction in discretionary travel, to undertake many of these activities and have been actively going through the department and asking for the reduction in a number of staff travelling to events. I think we need to work to continue to lobby the federal government to buck up in this regard. I take the Member's advice and I would like to work with the Member, and this committee can do that to talk about who would be best suited for some of this training. I think the individual Members, committee Members, can probably identify some places where we can make strategic investment to make sure we get the best bang for our buck, but where we engage our community partners to make sure that we do what we can within our restricted budgets, but we do what we can to meet this challenge. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I always...(inaudible)...until I see some progress in terms of how we can get the federal government to own up to their responsibility. A lot of it they push off to the territorial government. It's frustrating and sometimes it's disheartening because of not falling into the level of intent of their discussion or negotiations with us. At the end, the communities suffer because of a lack of funding, a lack of resources. I guess what you say is true, we look at getting the best value for our dollar that we are going to spend in our region. I guess any strategy that we have to work with the federal government in terms of getting the resources for natural dollars over to our communities, I will fully support you in that. That's all I have to say.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will certainly continue to do that and I would like to enlist the Member's help and support in that regard. I know as a government, we have been frustrated over the years

trying to get the federal government to live up to their commitment. There's been a lot of discussion in the media over the last few months. The Auditor General made some point of referring to implementation of land claims and the federal responsibility to live up to its commitments. We think this is very important. I would acknowledge that as frustrating as it has been for us as a government, we are at least able to at times get the attention of the federal government. We have access to our Member of Parliament. The people in the communities and on the ground don't, it is more difficult. So at times they would feel they don't get the voice and aren't heard very well, but that's where we, as Members of this Assembly, have to be in tune with the needs and the challenge of our constituents and make sure that their concerns are reflected in this House. I think we can do a lot to give a voice to their concerns. I look forward to working with the Member in this regard to make sure the federal government pays attention.

It's important to recognize, and we can't underline this fact enough, that when we talk about the gas pipeline and we talk about potential benefits, most of the government revenues, in fact our current arrangement, would go to Ottawa. We are talking about projections of course, but our projections are the $21.74 billion. More than 90 percent of these government revenues from oil and gas development projects will go to the federal government under our current regime. Ninety percent of that money will simply flow to Ottawa. We've obviously have to do something about that.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe just to get back to the business at hand, program delivery in RWED. I have one quick question to the Minister. Now that he pointed out that some of the programs they are delivering to have some measurable results and that there are probably some acceptable results in developing our northern workforce. I just wanted to ask the Minister, on the maximizing northern employment program, if that program has had a budget reduction of almost 50 percent from the last 2002-03 actuals. If that reflection has anything to do with achieving any acceptable results we have in our northern workforce.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Bell.