Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, certainly no more than one chief negotiator, no more than one assistant negotiator, and sometimes those two positions are combined and just one of those two will travel. Typically not more than one legal counsel from Justice. The other two I had mentioned, lands negotiator and implementation negotiator, there might be one of them travelling. As I said, not typically, but on occasion depending on the topic and items being discussed.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually, this is quite an unusual experience. Normally my time flies by. This is nice; I have lots of time here. Can the Minister supply me with those numbers I was requesting about last year's travel costs? Can I have the ministry breakout as well as the negotiators breakout? How often, before I release the mike, do these negotiating teams travel at, if I may boldly say, $768,000 worth of travel? If the Minister could explain that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, as the Member can appreciate, when we did up our briefing books and totals, we don't have the full year for 2003-2004. Up to the end of February 2004 there was $298,835.12 spent on travel for negotiations. For other travel -- and this is all the other categories I had mentioned before -- up to the end of February there was $114,502.06 spent for a total up to February for this 2003-2004 year of $413,337.18. Mr. Chairman, if we go back to the 2002-2003 year, the number was $705,212.26. If you want to compare a full year with a full year. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins, you can slide in one more question.

Excellent. I'm just finding that substantial. Unless we had a lot of travel this month, that was a lot of travel, $413,000 this year alone up to the end of February 2004, if I understood it. Did he have an expectation of spending another approximately $200,000 worth of travel? Can the Minister show me or demonstrate how we had a 25 percent reduction in travel in this department? My apologies, I did not see it. As well, can you reiterate your three-year travel average?

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the three-year average for travel was $700,000. This year our travel is down because the Tlicho negotiations are completed. Then we have also, in the department over the past couple of years, taken some dramatic efforts to reduce the cost of travel by buying excursion tickets and reducing the number of people travelling and so on. We anticipate continuing to exercise that kind of restraint in the future as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I will now ask if there are any other general comments on Aboriginal Affairs. Mr. Hawkins.

Excellent. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. With a department that has I think six pages, you have to at least ask a few questions. I don't think I heard the reduction of 25 percent there. Maybe if the Minister could gratefully reiterate that. I heard there's a plan that we're going to be a little smarter on how we purchase the tickets, but I didn't quite hear the cutback from last year's travel budget and how we've got 25 percent in this year's travel budget. If the Minister could help me on that number. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we have cut $176,000 out of our travel budget. I would have to work out what the total amount was that we cut that from. Mr. Chairman, the total travel expenses for the last year that we used was about $900,000. Of that, we cut $176,000 to arrive at the number we're using for this year. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister supply us with a written copy of the travel budget for the last three years, as well as a breakout as he's indicated earlier to give us an idea of teams that travel in that regard? I'm not in a position of authority to question the Minister on the size of teams, but it has been articulated loudly in the communities that more than one lawyer travels, et cetera. The teams are quite large. There's a significant entourage that travels with this group. I'm concerned on the budget growing and we're not scrutinizing at least the travel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the travel budgets, this is the budget, not the actual travel. Sorry, I have the actual travel, not the budget. This is the actual travel for 2001, $739,764.04; 2001-2002, $772,333.49; 2002-2003, $705,212.26; and for the 2003-2004, in which we've exercised a fair bit of restraint, came to $413,337.18. Mr. Chairman, if we go to the budget, last year we had a budget of $934,000 for 2003-2004. As I mentioned earlier, we've exercised a lot of restraint and I've cut that down so we're not going to spend the $934,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I think I understood this particularly puzzling question, I think the Minister took the average off the estimated and didn't take the number off the actual which is kind of strange, because the estimated, if I understood him correctly -- and please feel free to straighten me out -- I think I heard him say that the estimated was around $900,000 but the actual was $705,000. So why are we using an estimated number when I think I see three years of approximately $700,000? We have $739,000 for one year, $772,000 for the next, and $705,000 for the third. So why are we using a $900,000 average to get our travel budget when we didn't need that much, and then the following year to work out, which was last year we're just finishing, as of the end of February is $413,000.

So I really see some statistical oddities with the travel budget on this one, and I find it quite strange. Now we end up with a travel budget of I think I got $768,000. So I'm just trying to find some consistency on where the reduction is on this one. If the Minister could maybe supply us, as I was requesting earlier, a copy of that travel budget information, the one that refers to everything you read off to all the Regular Members, just to help demonstrate some of this consistency of the travel budgets. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, in making the 25 percent reductions, in all government departments we worked from our budgets. We didn't go to actual travel. We worked from what was budgeted for travel. So that was no different when we came to the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs.

Last year, in 2003-04, the ministry budgeted $934,000 for travel. The reason for the increase from the roughly $700,000 per year was because of the anticipated travel on the devolution file and on the Tulita self-government negotiations. So, Mr. Chairman, we worked from budget to budget, not actuals, and we haven't done that in any department. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister supply us with a hard copy of those budget figures?