Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I just want to get a brief explanation on why under the details of other expenses, travel, the 2003-04 actuals were at $64,000, but the directorate is slated in the 2004-05 mains at $173,000 and the 2005-06 mains at $174,000, which is three times what the actuals were in 2003-04. Can I get an explanation on why they could do it one year for $64,000 and now it's $174,000? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the difference the Member is speaking to is that in that year the budgeting was done to support the self-government process that we were involved with from the department, and it has changed since then. The demand for us to be at all the tables, and we found that the travel portion of it wasn't required at that amount and it's also accounted somewhat differently. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. The Minister doesn't have to supply that detail, but I wouldn't mind understanding a little bit more on what tables and who has to be where with regard to the increase. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to apologize. I didn't catch that last question.

Thank you, Mr. Roland, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if the Minister has this detail with him today, but I'd like to understand who has to be at which tables and why the expense has gone up from $64,000 to $174,000. A little more detail would be nice. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can get that information for the Members. Again, the way it was budgeted for has changed since the actuals to the 2004-05 mains is what we built in for the year we're in and we're about the same as what we are planning for, expenditure wise, for this budget exercise here. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can appreciate that, but, again, maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how you could get away with a $64,000 travel budget one year and have to increase that twofold the next year. The Minister is trying to explain it, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, a comparison of the 2003 actuals to main estimates is one that's difficult. For example, if we went back a little further than that to the 2003-04 mains, at that time we would have seen an identified travel budget in the area of $194,000. So the actual mains, as they were built at that time, we were estimating travel to be in the area of $194,000. Actual dollars used at that time were $64,000. From that point on we're going from mains to mains, 2003-04 mains to 2004-05 mains. We've budgeted a lower amount in 2003-04, recognizing that there was going to be less travel required by ourselves, but we still feel we need the dollars there to ensure that we can take part in the necessary discussions that we have direct involvement with. So it's difficult, again, to compare when you look at 2003-04 actuals to the main estimates, because the main estimates, again, are estimated by the departments to what requirements they are going to need and then we are going to have to account for the actual dollars.

Going into this process for 2006-07, you will see 2004-05 actuals and they can differ significantly, as well, from what was initially planned. So the 2003-04 mains we had planned for $194,000 in expenditures. The actual dollars spent at that time were $64,000. We felt there is still going to be a need and we have to have the budget to take part in some of the discussions that are happening, and that's why we've targeted $173,000 for 2004-05 and then 2005-06 we're targeting $174,000. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The cost-cutting exercise that was undertaken last year to cut travel by 25 percent government-wide; how is that portrayed in these line items here? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the amount we've identified here for going forward with this budget that's before Members, $174,000 for travel includes, for example, superintendent's travel to headquarters for the meetings that are required. As well, there is a new human resource assistant deputy minister and the traveling for the staff directly involved in that process. So we know there's going to be that requirement and that's why you don't see the corresponding 25 percent reduction process, because we've added further responsibilities to this that were not there before and that's why we're keeping our travel in the area very similar to the 2004-05 main estimates. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it's just a recurring thing throughout, and it was when we were going through the draft mains, to follow along and actually identify where that 25 percent cost-cutting measure was in terms of travel, because now it's just back to where it was It's hard to make that link. So I'll leave it at that. Again, the thing for me is if you can have a budget of $64,000 in one year, I don't understand why it goes up so much.

The other thing I wanted to mention, Mr. Chairman, is the formula. If you look across government, there's a formula in most departments and this one seems to be holding true here on the formula. But you take the number of employees and you multiply it by 10, or $11,000, and that gives you your travel budget, and I'm not sure if all departments arrive at the same. It just seems to play itself out across government that that's the case. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland, would you like to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that's not the formula we use. In fact, within FMBS, we go through a zero-base exercise. It's quite a process and we've made a new binder to bring forward just on that aspect alone. The difference that we see here is that it's difficult to compare actual dollars to main estimate, but we've also added responsibilities in this year going forward. We know we will require more travel and that's why we've kept it at the same amount, but there are additional responsibilities and there's going to be an additional requirement to travel, especially if we continue in this process of the human resource service centres. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Menicoche.