Thank you, Mr. Bell. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. I understand that. I would like to know, in more simple terms, how is it that the Minister and the Legislature, through the Minister, how does the new legislation enable the Minister and, therefore, us to have an influence on how the money that is available to the BDIC will be spent to foster economic growth or create new development or enter into businesses? How I understand that is, I am thinking that this corporation and this board are going to work independently. The Minister is not going to be able to say I would like you to get access from Aboriginal Business Development Corporation to do this and that and whatever. Does it allow that? I want to know what the relationships are, because there is a dichotomy between trying to make it independent and, at the same time, I think that all of the Members here want to have some influence on how the public money is spent in terms of fostering and helping small businesses or arts and crafts businesses or something. I don't know what the day-to-day experience of the Minister is like on this one. Is it like running a department? As far as I am concerned, I thought that this was going to be quite an independent organization. It is not supposed to be like a department where the Minister is supposed to manage. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.

I think the benefit of having a board with people with business expertise is that they can provide that perspective when we are developing programs, but it is the Minister that will approve the business plan each year. That will become public. That will be tabled in the Legislative Assembly. We approve the financial appropriation every year. So there is an audited annual report each year. Really, the approval of those funds and the approval of the business plan speak to the level of involvement that the Minister and the Legislative Assembly have in how money is spent. Of course, the ability to issue directives in terms of priority areas for investment is another one. I certainly won't be involved on a day-to-day basis, approving loans or getting involved in the specific financing of various different investments. It is not something that is appropriately the job of the Minister. That is why we have this organization which will be headed up by this board. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Ms. Lee.

There are lots of examples of highly-publicized ventures that the BDIC -- and probably not so much BCC -- had engaged in in the past that raised eyebrows of people here and maybe elsewhere. A couple of years ago, they did a mass mail-out on faxes, selling Christmas gifts, severely disrupting local markets. That is one thing I can think of. I wonder why you go to Fort McPherson, or

was it Tsiigehtchic? They don't have a commercial place. They might not have as many business ventures going on there, when I think public money should be spent fostering businesses in communities where there aren't any, and then I see money being spent in lots of businesses in Yellowknife I think that might not require public funding. I am trying to see how doing this new way is going to better that sort of situation. There are numerous businesses, arts and crafts businesses or small business in communities that cannot access commercial lending. I think that there should be a lot more opportunities for them to enter into. I think this is the kind of thing that this corporation or any sort of public-funded business agency should be more actively involved in. I am not getting a picture from here that that sort of situation is really going to change. It is just that we are putting one umbrella onto an entity that used to be two. I guess there are some economies of scale to be gained. I am being asked by the Minister to say, okay, we are just putting the framework here. We are marrying these two. We are going to turn them into one. We are hoping that they are going to be more efficient, but as to how they are going to do it and how they are going to better deliver government objectives or the Minister's objectives, we are just going to have to wait and see. Is that the extent of what I am being asked to do here?

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.

It is difficult for me to generalize, because many of our programs are based on application. If applications, in fact, don't come in for those programs, we can't sort of will the money just out into the general public or general community by community. So I think that is the difficulty in me being able to respond to that. I think there are two issues here which we shouldn't confuse. Efficiency is one, and there are efficiencies and reduced administration in this new organization. I think we documented that. Effectiveness is another. That speaks to the program and service review we are going to conduct. We need to know if the kinds of things we are doing make sense or, if they once made sense, still make sense, if the government's priorities are being reflected in our program delivery, if, in fact, we are doing the kinds of things to foster and enable a diversified economy, if we are effectively working with the smallest communities to make sure they can share and partake in this booming economy. Those are all very legitimate and very good questions.

I am not suggesting to the Member that we need to take a leap of faith here. What I am suggesting is that we are going to methodically conduct this program and service review and make sure that this board reflects the priorities of this government and the priorities of this Legislature which change over time, and is flexible enough in order to accommodate those and be responsive. I think that those are two very key priorities for this new organization. Yes, much of that is to be developed. I am asking the Member and all Members in this House to work with me in ensuring that we have the most responsive and effective organization going forward. There have been a number of years of work into this, but we now have a chance, as a Legislature, to put our stamp on this new organization and make sure it reflects the priorities of this government and make sure that people in all of the communities and our smallest communities are able to take advantage of our programs and services. We will only do that with an effective program service review and effective cooperation on the part of my department and this government with your committees. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Ms. Lee.

Thank you. The preamble of the bill says the purpose of the corporation is to support the economic objectives of the Government of the Northwest Territories, by encouraging the creation and development of business enterprises. The Minister just indicated, in a small example that I have, that it is really application based. I guess these entities are going to be out there. If the people want to take advantage of it and apply for the funding, that is one thing; but, if not, what can you do? I think that is one example of a big, huge discussion that we should have.

We hear a lot in this House about how there are uneven and even level business development and economic activities happening in the Territories. Economy in Yellowknife is overheated. There are businesses springing up all of the time. There is virtually full employment in Yellowknife. I have to tell you, it really bugs me when there are millions in public money being lent out to huge corporations, that I am not going to mention. I hear day in and day out about how there are no activities happening in small communities. I want to know how we can make a difference. I think setting up an organization like this is an opportunity to do that. I am being asked to sort of jump into that. It is really taking a leap of faith, because we are just creating a skeleton structure. We are creating a board. We are creating a corporation, and we are just going to leave them to do what they are going to do. When do we, as a Legislature, have a say on how much money we are spending, are we spending $30 million, $40 million, $50 million, $60 million? How much of that is going to be going to grants and contributions to small communities? How much of that is going to lending money to Aurora Company, a $1 million loan to Aurora Tourism Company or whoever? How much of that is going to government-funded businesses selling file folders made of buffalo hide? I think the private sector sells those things better than the public sector at Christmastime using government faxes. When do we get our opportunity to have a say in that?

I don't think that...what are other businesses? It is unbelievable the list of businesses in Yellowknife that get money from the public purse when we have so many businesses. I have to be careful. There are innovative businesses that are engaged in high tech and things where it is unproven and untried, but I don't think a retailer selling coffee or anything like businesses that are well-known and well-established, I don't think that is where the public money should be going. When do we have a discussion on that? Is it totally going to be up to the board? Maybe the Minister could tell me that this legislation has provisions there that give this new corporation direction as to what sorts of things this government is expecting to do. Or am I just here to approve this legislation and give it to the Minister and Cabinet to direct them on what they are supposed to do and just let it go at that? I don't know.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.

Thank you. In my earlier response, I didn't want to give the suggestion that we have programs that are application-based if people don't

take advantage of those. Oh well, too bad, the money moves on to those who are able to take advantage of those.

I think, in our discussion with Member Braden, there were a number of very good points raised about our role in helping develop business capacity. I think that is a critical component of what we need to do, what we currently do but need to be doing a better job of. To suggest that people have to just wake up and smell the opportunities and take advantage of them I think is patently unfair. I think we have to work very closely with people in all our communities. I don't think we can exclude any communities, by the way. There are large companies in Yellowknife that certainly don't need our help, but there are struggling, potential, budding entrepreneurs who don't have the credit rating to go to a chartered bank. I don't think we can discriminate against them because they happen to be located in a larger centre. I think we need to use our Community Futures organizations to build up that capacity and we need to make sure we work with people to be able to take advantage of opportunities.

It would be the same thing as suggesting that communities...I'll use our new RPDP program as an example; that while there are all these opportunities that are going to stem from the pipeline, communities just need to stand up, take advantage of them and go and negotiate with the producers. I don't think anybody would think that makes sense. We know we need capacity. We know we need skills in order to be able to do that, and our government is involved in helping to develop that and provide that. It's very much the same here with business programming. It's not enough to expect that the people don't need help in accessing financing. But we're trying to make it simpler, we're trying to be more supportive, and we're trying to improve our program of service delivery.

In terms of whether or not certain companies merit funding from this government or if too much funding is happening in certain regions for certain companies, a lot of that's very difficult for the public to ascertain right now because not much of this information is public. We're proposing in this new bill a new real element of transparency. That's something that the committee drove home time and time again. We need to know who's being lent money and where they're from. We don't speak to that now and we will in future. I think that will allow the very good debate around these points that we're engaging in to happen. I think that's a point that will be of some considerable discussion. I think that debate needs to take place and can take place with this new organization.

I hear what the Member is saying. I think she's making some very good points. I think there are a number of issues and it's not a simple solution to this, but I think we're moving forward with the pieces that enable us to do those kinds of things. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Does committee agree that we've concluded general comments on Bill 16?

We'll now go clause by clause. Bill 16, Northwest Territories Business Development and Investment Corporation Act. Page 4, Bill 16, Northwest Territories Business Development and Investment Corporation Act, interpretation, clause 1.

Page 5, Northwest Territories Business Development and Investment Corporation, clause 2. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for clarification from the Minister, Mr. Chairman. Does any reference need to be made to the land claim agreements in terms of the legislation in terms of programming? Again, going back to chapter 12 of the economic measures chapter, it makes reference to the agreements of the settled land claims. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Thank you. I don't believe that there's the requirement to specifically identify the various different economic measures chapters that exist in current land claim provisions or potentially in future land claim provisions, but we did have this discussion with committee and I did provide, in writing, my understanding that there needed to be a level of consultation certainly with committee. I do believe that extends to land claim organizations, where we're making significant program changes. But to cite all the land claim provisions that currently exist and future ones that we might anticipate coming into force, I don't think is realistic in this piece of legislation or all of our other business programming legislation. But I would state again, where we are making those significant program changes, I do believe we are compelled to do that.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I wasn't alluding to citing all the land claim settlements and all the different chapters. I was alluding to a reference where this interpretation would somehow make a reference to the land claims that have been settled in the Northwest Territories. You can have that discussion in terms of consultations and different programs and all the different clauses. I'm not too sure if we are living up to the agreement that was negotiated between Canada and this government and the aboriginal groups of settling these land claims. So again, a question to the Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Thank you. Because those provisions stem from commitments made by the federal government and in effect become federal law, we believe that those override all these pieces of legislation and don't need to be reiterated in every single piece of NWT legislation that we have, from every territorial piece of legislation. Maybe for some further discussion of that, I'll go to Mr. Vician and he can give you a sense of some of our thinking on this matter. Thank you.