Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your comments. I hear a commitment to talk to the people in the Sahtu region in terms of programming. However, this is a major step, a major change, in terms of this legislation and how it's going to affect the people in the Sahtu region, especially the ones who will be impacted through the land claims. I am not against it. It's just a consultation process. The programming that's going to be affected by it and the level of consultation now needs to be in place with the land claim settlement organizations. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to give the Member assurance that the Business Program Review Committee did conduct extensive public consultation around our business programs. That was what led to the recommendation that we create through this legislation, a single funding agency. The focus of the consultations was on business clients that did include some aboriginal development corps and then the report of that organization was distributed widely to those stakeholders and to the land claimant groups in 2002. So I believe that in every stage of this process, and it has been over the last number of years now, and in future as we change programs or we propose to change programs, I have indicated that I will sit down with the legislative committees, but it's just as important to consult land claim organizations as well because the effects will be felt if we change those programs by those individuals. So I will certainly commit to doing that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I guess it's a matter of different interpretations and different levels of concentration, different opinions in terms of this bill and how it's being viewed in terms of consultation by the different organizations. I am looking at the Sahtu land claims in terms of the economic measures, that we are following this chapter here under 12.13 and that people are being consulted. This bill here will have a definite impact into our economic measures chapter. It will have an impact. There is no doubt about it. Are you prepared to look at the outcome of this? That's what I am asking. I am not disagreeing with the Minister. I think it's a good bill, but I am not sure of the consultation. That's what I want to say, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Bell.

I will certainly continue to consult on all matters that reflect program change. I believe we do have that obligation to do that under the economic measures chapter. Further to that, I think it just makes good business sense. We want to make sure our programs are as responsive as possible and we work with all people in the regions and obviously in the Sahtu to

make sure we come up with the most effective business organization possible. I see this legislation as the skeleton or the framework that will allow new programs to be plugged in. As we are creating those new programs, which will have an impact on the lives of Sahtu people, we will certainly talk with that organization to see how effective those programs can be and seek their advice. That's the distinction I am hoping to make, but I am not saying there hasn't been consultation; there has, with land claim organizations throughout the development of this legislation through the Business Program Review Committee. So I believe we have done that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Chairman, I think I got the comfortable assurance from the Minister that the consultation is happening. I have no more further questions on this bill.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't mean to belabour some of the points I am asking here, but I am afraid I still don't have a clear picture of what it is that we are creating here. On one hand, I hear the Minister saying having input into the needs of community business people in Sahtu and how the policy change is being suggested there are going to be incorporated into how these groups are running. I don't see how that's going to get done in terms of the relationships and control the Minister has with the board and corporation. I still don't know because oftentimes in all the boards that are created by the NWT statutes, once they are created the Ministers are required to have a hands-off approach, even education boards. We are told over and over again, you can't really control or have direct input into a lot of things other than by way of funding and some of the broad policy objectives. Meeting the strategic policies of government will require more input and control about that.

I still don't see how this is going to work. Maybe I am not asking the right questions or I am not listening enough. What is the transition going to look like? Will legislation just leave everything as it is now? They are going to get new letterhead, they will have a new board appointed, but all the program dollars and the categories of programs that are available within two corporations as they exist now, they are going to be the same, perhaps until a different version is presented to the House following the program review by the new CEO and new board. Is that the right way to understand that? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.

I think maybe it's obvious to me because I am involved in trying to deal on a daily basis with these three different organizations that are all delivering different programs and services on behalf of this government and it is quite a challenge. We currently have the BCC and their board delivering certain programs and services. We have the Dev Corp, another organization, delivering sometimes the same services, sometimes different. Sometimes there is a lot of question about who would be better delivering these programs and services. We also have RWED administering business programs and services on behalf of the government. I can assure the Member that there is some confusion and a lot of discussion around who would best be suited to delivering these and our strategic priorities are not always in lock step between these three organizations and it is difficult to keep track of that. We think it would be much easier and much more effective if we have one board, one organization in charge of all these programs, and this enabling legislation will allow for the evolution of program delivery in regions. But, as we have said, drastic changes to programs, the elimination of some programs, the elimination of subsidiaries, the changing of investments. If we were to try to undertake something like that prior to changing this organization, I would offer it would have been an overwhelming task and we wouldn't have been successful in maintaining the support for this because of the uncertainty that clients would have had around whether or not those programs would still be there for them and who they would even speak to about the change, which might be unsettling.

I think that is what you are seeing here reflected in this legislation today. I think that the future is much improved for businesspeople in communities, because I think they will be better able to understand where to get programs and services from in future. I do think that the communities and regions that really know their people best on the ground will be able to take over much of this program and service delivery in the future. That is the model. I think it is hard to look at this thing. We tend to look at it in a very short time frame. But if you were to come back I think in 10 or 15 years and look at how program and service delivery is carried out in the regions, it will be drastically different, I believe. I think that is where you will see this change in this legislation has enabled those types of improvements. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Ms. Lee.

Well, see, that is the problem here because we don't know. The Minister speaks about the flexibility and the skeleton framework we are setting out here. We are not making a whole lot of changes, so I don't understand how he could say, with any level of confidence and certainty, that somehow what we are doing here is going to create or resolve this and that it is much more different, positive, and more helpful to the business industry. I don't need to know all of the details, the in and outs of this, but I really need to get a clearer picture about what this legislation provides in terms of the new organization that addresses what the drawbacks were as they exist in these two separate organizations. I don't see that right now.

Let me ask a more direct question to the Minister. What is the total budget that is being administered by the three organizations that are currently delivering business programs for the government and maybe even including some of the programs that are available in RWED? What is the manpower that we are looking at? When does this legislation come into force? How long does the Minister foresee that all of these are going to stay the same? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.

I am going to collect that level of detail that the Member has asked for here. The act comes into force on a day or days fixed by the order of the Commissioner, so, on passage, the legislation will come into effect. I think the Member was looking for the budget of the three existing organizations and the manpower, the

number of staff involved in delivering the programs and services currently. I can certainly provide that. I know, from dealing with frustrated clients in regions who approach us or approach the BCC about a loan and wonder why we can't do leveraged or partnered financing with another organization, maybe in the federal government, where they have seen a program that seems to fit the bill. The reason is this very prescriptive BCC legislation doesn't allow us to do that. That is, in this day and age and our fiscal reality, we need to be able to partner with other entities and with other sources of financing to make sure our money goes as far as it can. I think that is one of the things that this legislation allows. It has the flexibility to allow us to develop programs that can do those kinds of things. We don't have that right now. As I have said, we are really handcuffed by that and handcuffed to deliver the most effective programs and services to our residents without the ability to resort to partnerships, to resort to partnership funding arrangements. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Ms. Lee.

On that note, could I ask the Minister what is in the Business Credit Corporation Act right now that hinders, and what does that wording say that hinders such a leveraging activity, and how is the new act written that could help address that? Could I get the Minister to be more specific about the old wording and compare it to the new one? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.

Thank you. The new BDIC legislation accommodates the ability for us to develop programs that speak to partnerships. It isn't so prescriptive that we can't do that. If you look at section 18 of this new legislation, the section on agreements, it indicates and allows us to...In this section, the corporation may enter into agreements with any department or agency of the GNWT, Government of Canada, government of a province or territory, any body or person, for the provision of services or a program that are consistent with the corporation's purpose to, on behalf of, or jointly with that department, agency, government body or person. We don't have that ability with the BCC, so it is very clearly laid out here. There is no doubt in our minds that, on passage of this legislation, we are now able to do that. If we were to go into and enter into those kinds of programs, we would be doing that without the express direction or ability under the current BCC legislation. Thank you.

Thank you. Time is up, Ms. Lee. General comments. I will give Ms. Lee another round here. Thank you, Ms. Lee.

Thank you. Thank you, Members. On that last question, are there different powers and responsibilities and authorities given to the boards? Is there a new and different power given to this new board that wasn't there for the old boards, or does that legislation that the Minister just read out give them the kind of power to do the things that the government wants it to do? Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Bell.