Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the review that we're undergoing is with a firm called the Hackett Group and it will cost us approximately $150,000.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, $450,000.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ramsay.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It will just take me a second here to gather myself after hearing a number like $450,000. That's half a million dollars almost for HR having been amalgamated now for close to a year to have to go and spend that kind of money to find out what's going on. I don't know. I'd have to guess that there are some pretty substantial problems, shall I say, in there and the delivery of services to employees and potential employees and those that are retiring. I'd like the Minister to maybe tell me a little bit about the Hackett Group, if you could, please. I'd like to know if this program was sole-sourced, as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Member has stated, on a number of occasions, concerns around the human resources and our dealing with employees and a lot of those reasons are shared by the government overall in a sense. That's why we've gone through this process of amalgamation. It's just been approximately eight months. The decision was made to proceed in May. In June we started the process in earnest. Doing this work and finding out what was involved and working with departments. You look at us and there are 13 departments, but in actuality we dealt with 11 of the departments that had their own HR systems established, as well as boards and agencies. We worked with them to identify staff within their organizations and then worked on a process of bringing them into the system.

Once we had that happening, what we also found was there was a huge backlog of files that needed attention. Some weeks old, some months old, and, yes, even some years old. That caused a lot of concern. In pulling the organization together and trying to re-establish a common understanding of the policies that we have in place and bring everybody under the same interpretation of those policies. It was realized that there were more things that needed to be done.

The Hackett Group is an organization that deals with a number of large companies, as well as governments, that deal with a lot of the human resource issues that we deal with and systems. We're undergoing a fairly intensive review about the systems we use, how we do things, why we touch this piece of paper, why is it not done with the existing system; for example, our PeopleSoft system. It's going to be through that that we hope to identify further areas that we need to improve on. It's one thing of pulling your people together and come up with a common understanding, in an environment where departments and boards have gotten used to having independence, as I guess we can say, where they got used to doing things on their own now being told, no, these are the processes that need to be followed. So the environment we work in, too, can affect the timing of how we get things done.

For some of the actual work that's being done, the Hackett Group itself, I did meet with one of the representatives a few days ago on the work that's being undertaken, but I'll have Ms. Elkin provide some detail of some of the work that's going on within the organization and some of the things we're starting to find. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Elkin.

Thank you, Ms. Elkin. Mr. Ramsay.

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. That sounds like it's really good and that's something that I think a number of us had asked for earlier on. I'm glad to see it happening, I mean, don't get me wrong. I think it is a good exercise and I would have perhaps preferred to see it happen more at the onset of the amalgamation, but better late than never, I suppose. Where in the budget would I find the 450,000 that the Minister referred to that this review is going to cost? Where is that at?

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's in the 2005-06 budget. So it's part of the FMBS budget and it's taken from all the little pockets that we could find. So it's not in the 2006-07 budget that you're going to look under for HR. The work is ongoing in 2005-06. So it's money that was identified from different parts of whether we could save some money in the travel area, in some of the training areas, pulling all these things knowing that this was a critical piece. So they pulled money together from the different pockets within FMBS and HR itself and it's been accounted for in the 2005-2006 budget, and the contract was sole sourced.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, and if this is the best, the Hackett Group is the best that we can get and we have to pay top dollar to get the best help we can. I know there's a number of issues there that need to be rectified. I wish you the best of luck in doing that. I'll wait for another couple of pages and ask that question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Hackett Group who's doing this review, I think it's an appropriate name you call it the Hackett Group. So I'm not sure if that's a coincidence, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if we want to run too far with that issue. I wanted to ask about this whole review and is the department considering using some of these plans or money that could be used in reviewing the offices in the smaller regions? Are they using it to get feedback from the people on the ground, the ones who are using the system right now, who are implementing the human resource direction and that this process will involve an independent group like I think the Hackett Group to go into the regions and say this is how it's going? It may be different in other regions, but people need to have some assurance that in order to improve the system, they need to be forthright and frank about how it's working. They can't get feedback if it's under the species of the department. So I need to hear from the Minister in terms of how we're going to improve the human resource system. Thank you

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as Ms. Elkin had stated earlier, the Hackett Group, a representative has gone out to every region

where we have the regional service centres. Unfortunately, they couldn't actually make a trip into the Sahtu, but the Sahtu staff were online with them and on the phone with them about the practices in dealing with the questions, the same as it would be in person if they were into Simpson or other communities. So we are working with all the staff in regions, and the representatives from the Hackett Group are meeting with and calling employees without our senior staff there. So employees can be right open and frank about the processes they work under, the faults they're finding, the concerns that have come up. As with every amalgamation process, even in a good move, we always find there are stresses and strains on the system and individuals that work within the organization. So it's incumbent to get the input from our staff in the field, as well as in management positions. So we have worked with communities, community representatives and right down to the clerk levels. Thank you

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there can be some opinions as how you get effective quality feedback from people either through the e-mail system, or through the telephone, or face to face, and there's different opinions as to what works the best. Unfortunately, the Hackett Group couldn't get into the Sahtu to really talk to the people and they had to go through the e-mail and the telephone. I don't think that's very meaningful or effective. However, the Minister may disagree with me on the type of feedback he's getting from our region. So I wanted to just remind him I guess in terms of I'm not satisfied with the way that feedback is getting from our region in terms of being part of this overall review and lump it together and say, well, the regions feel this way. So it's people, really.

You've got to get the people, you're dealing with the human resource issues and that's how we're dealing with the human resource of our employees in this whole system here. It's people first. Again, I want to stress that this whole human resource concept is about working relationship with people. Sometimes I think that sometimes we tend to look at our employees as machines. So that's getting scary. So that's something that is just my own opinion, Mr. Chairman. It has no reflection as to how I'm communicating this to the Minister, but that's how sometimes I see it.

So is the review, the Hackett Group, is it doing an entire review of the whole human resource right from top to bottom and bottom to top? Is the Hackett Group looking at the whole structure and that we're going to use this once it's finished that this will come to the Assembly or the community and we would look at it in terms of improving the human resource? I think we really need to take this issue very seriously because there have been some complaints from my region in terms of the human resource area. So I'm very concerned that these calls are coming into my office and people are voicing them. So this is a human resource department. I think the Minister is quite aware of my feelings for this. Again, I will support the Minister in terms of how best to work with this department and see where we could improve issues and improve the Human Resources department. I just want to leave it at that. Again, I want to say that to the Minister. He's got a tough job ahead of him. Thank you

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess the tough job is in responding to the Members and concerns, questions that are raised to them. The tougher job is at our staff level of trying to get the job done and try to fulfill what we expect of them in the field. I agree, I mean when we talk about getting information and having discussions, I've been on many conference calls and so on where you would want to be in the room because that's where you get the full amount of feedback as to how people are saying yes to you or dealing with the questions that are being asked. Unfortunately, as a government, we're unable to get into every place that we would like to. Financial constraints do come into the equation.

Within the Sahtu, again, this is dealing with our HR staff in each of the regional centres and headquarters and, at this time, the Sahtu has five employees that are with HR. Two of them are off right now and there are three in the office. So those individuals have been contacted by the Hackett Group and have dealt with the interview process, is my understanding. But preference would be yes, if we had the opportunity to be into every region, that would be our preferable method. Unfortunately, we weren't able to do it in this case. I still do believe, though, with the input from the employees in the field, that will help us overall in coming up with the right actions that are needed to ensure we're delivering human resources in, I guess, the most efficient and effective way, as well as one that can be considered as being in touch with its employees. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.