Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Protective services is an area I raised with the Minister not that long ago and my concern is the return of children to parents who are well-known or have been known or suspected to have been some type of abusers of substance, that playing a role in why the children have been taken away or put into custody of some sort, or even given up in whatever the circumstances required. My questions at the time were specific to the area of testing the parents for whether they continue substance abuse sort of lifestyle. Now, I fully believe that we need to play a role in this. I think the logic behind it is are we putting the children first? How are we doing that, and can we be tested in the sense of our logic? My belief is that we have to always exercise on the side of caution and if we're a little extra cautious in favour of the child, that speaks to why our principles are as they are. I have no doubt that protective services is mandated and puts into practice fully that position, but my area of concern raised directly with the Minister is the area of testing the parents when we consider, or when we reconsider sending them back to the families or reuniting the family. I've always been in favour of the concept. I have no concern about the objective of the mandate or returning them to the family, but it's, I guess, the underlying sense that I'm trying to describe here is I want to give the child or children the best chance that they have and not put hurdles or certainly landmines in front of them by sending them back to sort of a sorry situation. So given the fact that I've emphasized in a couple different ways my concern with this problem and the feeling that I feel very strongly that we have a role to play here, where is the Minister taking this issue? I'll note that he has had some correspondence with me on this, but where has he taken this issue and if it hasn't gone very far, would he be willing to engage his judicial folks to find out if we could do something of this nature whereas one of the requirements of returning a child or children that is back to their parents who through some fact or statement of understanding that they were some type of substance abuser that they agree to be tested to ensure the children are being returned to a safe home. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the area of testing or requiring testing is one where the courts will play a significant role and do from time to time, depending on the issue or the parent being involved. A court or judge can order that testing be required in a number of instances.

When it comes to the child protection side of the equation, when we get involved we are very involved in what occurs in the home when a child has been apprehended, removed from, a number of procedures are taking place. Social workers are put on the file and from counselling that has to be required by parents to showing that in fact they can provide the necessary level of care to the children. Having a good home environment is something that is checked on regularly. For example, it's not a matter of a child being apprehended and then being almost immediately returned home. The fact is, if it's an occurrence that has come up before and a child goes through the process, number one, they'd be put in, if it's a day care or, not a day care but a professional home or foster family, in that sense, for the immediate help and if things don't turn around, then we get further involved as going to the courts for an order of bringing the children into our care in a very formal way. Then we work with the parents on a plan of what needs to be done in that home, in that environment, and they have to be in agreement with that at the front end. If we have no cooperation in that area, then we get involved fully with the courts and that becomes very formal, and then the process is a long one to ensure again the safety of the child before the child is reintroduced back. That goes through supervised visits,

whether it's an hour or two every other day, and then graduating to a weekend, and then back into home environment, and that doesn't stop there where we become involved in the sense to make sure that environment stays safe. So we do quite a bit right now to ensure that if we're reintroducing a child back into the family situation, that it's well monitored, that parents have to show that they're in a position to take over care and responsibility of their child again in a satisfactory manner. So we are very involved in how we do this.

Should we require testing be done, should it be zero tolerance in the sense that a parent who's got their problems under control have sought the necessary counselling but have a sip of wine, should they be disallowed from having their children back? There's a lot of things that come in there and I think what we've been doing, to date, where there's an obvious issue, we have worked through the social workers and the families on coming up with an appropriate level of programming before a child can be reintroduced into that environment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Hawkins.

I'm waiting for the light there, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the answer to the Minister, but the fact is I'm still confident that we've got our eye on the wrong sort of game here. It almost sounds as if it's a legal loophole that we're worried about taking a stance. I mean, this is my opinion, obviously, and I share a completely different opinion than the Minister does on this issue. That's why I keep pressing it. I see it as an incisive issue. There is urgency and clarity on this and that's why I encourage him to take it to the justice folks to see if we can do something like this. It is my understanding that the B.C. administrator in this area has the authority to require something like this. I think we should be asking ourselves, is it too much to ask?

Another principle we should be considering is anytime someone goes to court and we're there to represent the child's best interest, we should be asking for this to be put into writing if at this time we cannot do this. It certainly should be the very minimum that we should be asking.

As I've seen it and have come to see it, that is, if someone has been on meth, I mean, they can't just walk in one day and say I'm clean. I mean these are life-changing problems and they're also life-changing struggles that I think people walk away from many years and can they wipe themselves from being an addict? I don't know. Some folks will say once they've been an addict, they will always be one and they deal with it day to day. I compliment the success of people getting away from these things, but the challenges and sometimes the temptations are out there that they're difficult to resist.

But the fact is, I would like the department to explore this area to ensure that, be it a zero tolerance of anyone found using this and that's why their children were taken away, that we should explore this again. Being wrong in the context of protecting the child first and having a mistake by overburdening someone to pee in a cup to prove that they're not using drugs anymore, the fact that, you know, I could handle that type of criticism. The fact that we had said to ourselves that this child's safety is on the forefront of every decision we make and the willingness of the parent I think should be there and probably in most cases would be there to ensure that, yes, they are going to provide them with the best opportunity before them. I guess that's why I keep coming around to the fact that I'd like to encourage the Minister to see if we can explore options like this, create contracts with people, even on the short term where they're at least, at the very least that is, a moral contract where people are allowing themselves to prove that they are clean when they get their children back and we can feel comfort at night when we go home and we wave goodbye to those kids as they're returned to their rightful family that we know that they've been given the best shot that they can. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the issue of courts and requirements we place on families is one that we take quite seriously. In fact, we tie up a lot of time in the courts because of our issue with the safety of children. We also get the other side of the equation, as I have stated earlier to one of the questions made or comments made, the fact that there are some people who think that, as a department, we are too involved and we place much too many requirements on a family before they can have their children reintroduced back into the home environment. We have a very stringent process of when a child is put in our care before we would release them back into the family. I've also dealt with the other side of it where I've had family members saying and calling regarding the intervention by social workers. Ultimately it's the safety of the child that comes first and we act on that.

The issue of testing is one where, I mean, we go even, for example, and I'll use the Mackenzie Delta with all the activity up there. Companies were requiring for safety of worksite that drug testing be done. That's being challenged, and it's being challenged across the country as well. So at some point we'd be looking to a challenge. I believe with what we have in place and the work we do with partners in communities under our own legislation, we have a very stringent process of reintroducing a child back into the home. We want to ensure again the safety of the child comes first. So home visits, if we have a social worker who's in the home and they realize that the reason these children were taken away was because of an abuse situation of substances and they recognize that that has not been cleaned up, then the child will not be returned back to that home.

Now, we've had lots of occasions, and I think most would know somebody in the community that went through issues of substance abuse who had children taken away, got their act together and got cleaned up and within a matter of months were back into some sort of an involvement with ourselves as the Department of Health and Social Services. So testing can be fine and work for awhile, but shortly after that testing is done we can still have family members potentially falling back into old habits. Unfortunately there's not going to be an absolute fix to the situation.

I think we've tried to be as careful as possible in this area. We can look at what other jurisdictions have done, but I think we can establish that our system in place is one that does take the safety of the child first. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Next I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask several questions to the Minister. The first one is in light of the recent reports on CBC and with the interview with Phil Fontaine of the Assembly of First Nations on the, I don't know what types of words he used in terms of calling it a crisis or a national disgrace in terms of the number of foster in Canada. I think he quoted a number of 27,000 across Canada. Mr. Fontaine was asking some serious questions. I'd like to ask the Minister, in regards to the Northwest Territories in terms of foster care children in the Northwest Territories homes that are of aboriginal descent and that are in homes that are non-aboriginal custody, that if he has some numbers. I'm asking for some details, so I'm also prepared to wait until he can get them to me at a later date. But I want to know that statement by Mr. Fontaine, does that somehow have, on a scale of the Northwest Territories, are we in that type of a situation as he has purported in the news? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have in care, I mean the number changes, so a snapshot I guess is what we'd call it. We have approximately 646 children in care at one level or another. I don't have the breakdown of how many are aboriginal. We can work to get that information. The issue that was raised by that report or that concern is not the same issue we have in the Territories

Yes, we do a have high percentage of aboriginal children in care. But the funding situation that is raised is not the same because here in the Northwest Territories, we don't get the funding as southern Canada does. It all comes in one pot and we fund everybody out of the same program. So it doesn't matter if you are an aboriginal child or a non-aboriginal child, it's all within the same program. So we have similar issues in the sense of the high count of children in care, but the funding issue for us is one of having to do some work on our rates but we don't have the exact situation that is being raised as the Member raised here. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Minister. Before I begin again, can we have Members keep quiet so when the Member has a question for the Minister, we can listen to them? Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the numbers are really high. There are 646 aboriginal children in foster care in the Northwest Territories. Mr. Minister has alluded to the funding issue. I guess the point is we have these young children taken away from their homes in the communities and for whatever reasons they are taken away, I am more concerned about the care of these children and how they are taken away and what kind of support and rights that the family has. Sometimes some things fall through the cracks. Families work so hard that after awhile, they give up because of the regulations or the policies. I want to know how there is a friendly system to make sure that these children come back into their homes. Sometimes families do well, really good. Any mother or father or grandparent, they really miss their children. There is no shortage of stories being told by former students of residential schools how this has happened and the disconnect. So there are lots of things that contribute to this. So I am asking the Minister for some breakdown. I would also like to ask the Minister for costs; what it costs for each aboriginal child in a foster care home, one year, two years, three years. What does it cost us to have it? How many foster care homes are in my region? How much training have they had? I know I am asking some questions that the Minister can reply to later on and I am willing to accept that.

So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one more question. If the Minister could supply some information for me on these three or four questions regarding foster care.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we will put that information together. We realize that's a fair bit of detail he's requesting. We will get it to him as soon as we can put that together. The number 646 is not all children in foster homes and it's not all aboriginal children, but a very high percentage are aboriginal children. We will get that breakdown. For example, out of that 646, 254 are actually in their homes but they are in a plan of care program where parents have had to sign agreements on what happens in their home and how things are taken care of. We are still in supervision mode in those areas. Another 25 are in provisional foster care areas where family is involved and then the extended family care, so an aunt or an uncle in that community, a grandparent. There are another 81 involved in that. So over 300 of those children are either in their own homes or with family members and where we are directly involved with monitoring and supervising what occurs in that situation. So there are a lot of children who are involved in the system, but we are still working with families and a large number of them, ensuring that we maintain that family contact. As for the rest of the information, we will provide that to the Member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize to the Minister if I gave the wrong assumption that it was 646. I apologize. I look forward to getting some accurate numbers in the future. I did appreciate the numbers that he has given me. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister a question. Can the Minister answer this question as to how many childcare workers have their papers, their certificates, to regulate or legislate child protection services in the Northwest Territories? That again may have to wait, but I want to ask this question to the Minister.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, our social workers, as part of our hiring policy, have to meet minimum requirements to get the job, so there has to be qualifications right from day one. On top of that, there is further training that happens within our system as we work with our staff to ensure that they have adequate training to deal with the situations they are in. As for the actual count, we will get the total number of

social workers and the minimum requirements that they be required to meet. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for providing me information later on. I am asking some fairly detailed questions and sometimes our discussions are like this. I appreciate that from the Minister. I would ask the Minister this one question, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the support for the families in the communities who are in a situation of foster care and apprehension of children, is the type of support...Are we providing, along with the Sahtu health workers in my region, adequate support? If a family is in a situation where children may not be taken by the Department of Social Services, that there is a team dispatched into that community to work with this family and do as much as they can within their limits and to help this family out, because there are extended families that dearly love to take children into their own homes but sometimes situations prevent this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we work with our authorities in the regions on the delivery of programs. The day-to-day operations, the authority, would be directly involved. If there are cases where they call for outside help of the department itself, then we would step in and provide backup support in those areas. So there is an approach used, but ultimately it's first and foremost dealt with at the authority level and if they are having difficulties and need backup support, then we would step in and provide that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Next I've got Mr. Braden.