Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure where this Member's been if he's hasn't heard...

---Laughter

...hasn't heard the widespread support for actions to be taken on the caribou herds. Mr. Speaker, we've heard from all the co-management groups across the Territories. We've conducted workshops in the different regions. We've heard from all the different users of caribou, the people that share the land with the caribou. We've had a summit. We've had our people going into different communities that are affected by this. There's been so much discussion and information that's been flowing, I'm not sure where the Member's coming from when he asks that question, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. Speaker, I'm just replying to the ENR Minister's responses, which is we don't know the true numbers. We have good ideas what some numbers are, so what are we doing? Making up the numbers in some areas by guessing? Mr. Speaker, the fact is that there are no clear numbers in certain areas of the herds. Mr. Speaker, this is starting to look like a Charlie Chaplin show; a lot of action, but no words or process. So Mr. Speaker, the fact is, we need to see some clear action through a process, supplementary appropriation as alluded to by my colleague Mr. Villeneuve. The fact is, what...

Do you have a question, Mr. Hawkins?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure the Member would rather wait until there is no caribou before we start taking action. It would be a lot easier to count if...Mr. Speaker, the Member has alluded that we made up the numbers. Mr. Speaker, that's absolutely false. Mr. Speaker, we have done two surveys and a number of other actions that have shown the numbers are correct. We stand behind them and we will confirm any other information that the Member needs. Mr. Speaker, there are some herds that have not been counted and we have pledged to do some next year, but, Mr. Speaker, some of those herds are not in our jurisdiction. We need to work with other governments to be able to come up with an action plan and have their agreement so that we can move forward. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the Minister's words, some herds have not been counted. So how can we deal with that as firm information? Because we're planning, we're setting regulations, and we're setting a process on herd numbers that have not been counted. Again, in the Minister's words. So, Mr. Speaker, how can we rest with comfort, all of us, trying to make a plan to protect the caribou without knowing the true numbers? Shouldn't we know what the true numbers are before we make brash decisions? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it's not like Census Canada. Caribou don't just line up and get counted.

---Laughter

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, we have counted four herds, Mr. Speaker. In those four herds that we have counted, the populations have decreased by 50 percent. Mr. Speaker, we know that the other herds across North America are also in a crisis situation. Mr. Speaker, it doesn't take a large amount of dollars to go out and count herds in other jurisdictions and in other areas where we don't yet have authority to do so before we make decisions. Mr. Speaker, we're comfortable with our numbers, we stand by your numbers, and we need to take action and will be doing so. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Oral questions. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll bite now. I'm hungry on this issue of caribou here.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister in regards to the caribou issues. I want to ask him a simple question that the aboriginal hunters have in terms of the caribou. The numbers will go on a long dispute, but for the people who rely for thousands of years and will continue, hopefully, for survival of their culture and their beliefs and their only livelihood, what type of protection is this government in terms of the aboriginal hunters will not be affected greatly by the questionable numbers that are out there? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Speaker, as soon as the caribou numbers go down, the aboriginal people are affected. The aboriginal communities that live in the areas where the caribou roam are already voicing great concern. We have been working with the co-management boards that are in the different jurisdictions where there are settled claims and there has been a number of initiatives that we're looking at. Sahtu co-management group, for example, is looking at a voluntary quota that will be brought forward as recommendation. We're also looking at maybe no-hunting zones at certain times of the year; maybe other things, such as no-hunting areas along ice roads and those things. So there are a number of things that we have on the drawing board, Mr. Speaker. We still have a lot of work to do yet, Mr. Speaker. Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I've spoken to some of the people in our region and certainly with the Sahtu Renewable Resources Board volunteering to look at some of the ways that we could protect and keep our caribou. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of ENR again to look at what ways he can ensure that the people in the small communities in terms of protecting the hunting of the aboriginal people, there's land claims settlements and then there's no settlements on some of the parts of the Northwest Territories in terms of I'm looking at some of the areas that don't have a land claims settlement in terms of dealing with this issue. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have committed to work with all the aboriginal groups that are affected by the issue of caribou reduction. We are required and bound by land claims agreements. In some areas case law also applies. Mr. Speaker, we have committed to working with aboriginal groups and have already embarked on that process and will continue to do so. That will include some of the aboriginal governments that do not have a settled claim. We've already heard from the Akaitcho government on their position regarding the issue of caribou. We've heard from other communities, such as Fort Smith, where some of the members from the Metis Nation and the Dene have come to our meetings and given us some advice. So, Mr. Speaker, we're pledging to work with everybody. It's a big issue across the Territories, but we'll continue to keep the communication lines open. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, could I ask if the Minister could come into the communities in the Sahtu and talk to our community members, especially the elders and the harvesters of the caribou, and look at some of the concerns and questions they have? But the question, I guess, what I got back from my communities, is that this government has it wrong when they said shoot bulls only. My leadership is saying that's not the right message we should be giving to our people. It should be looking at the cows to shoot and not so much of the bulls. That is quite puzzling for our leadership, so I'd ask the Minister if he would ask his officials to come into our communities and get the information from our elders, the traditional users of the caribou? Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, these decisions are not made lightly. There is a lot of discussion that takes place. Mr. Speaker, we have our experts that work with the co-management groups.

Mr. Speaker, the co-management group also brings to the table traditional knowledge. If there's concern from one community regarding the recommendations, we'd certainly be glad to have people go in and have further discussion regarding the concern. Thank you.